Knife Gripes video on Knife News

[rdub934]

Forgive me if already posted.

http://knifenews.com/knife-gripes-episode-7-stuck-in-the-90s/

He makes a very good point. Many have argued that it doesn't really matter since we are only talking about multis and not high end knives. But I'm saying that for $80+ I am expecting better than base-model features. Granted, I don't spend that much on tools or knives. Just passing on an interesting perspective, since it seems to come up from time to time.

[Kampfer]

That is his view and I don't agree with it.

Yes it is 2017 we have many advance blade steels but yet average people just don't use their knives much nowadays. Almost every package or envelope is designed to open without tools.
If the knife isn't being use much then what does matter between High end or low end steel?

"High end" steel is just something knives companies try to sell to their customers to make more profits and human been using tools made of "low end" steel for many centuries.

I am no pro of sharpening blades, I am happy with my low end stuff 420HC, 8cr13mov, aus8 etc.

IMO of course.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Nick does raise some interesting points, as usual, but I would still think that a rebuttal is in order.

First off, he keeps referring to the Wave as a $90 multitool, and he is absolutely right.  For $90 I would expect a better steel in a knife, but let's not forget that a knife has two moving parts- the blade and the lock. The Wave has well over ten times that for moving parts, to say nothing of the number of non-moving components. Assembly time alone must take several times as long as it does to make a folding knife, and especially with US made products, time = $$.

Also, the harder, fancier steels that hold edges longer also tend to be more brittle, and with the abuse a multitool blade goes through, plus the iron clad warranty for a multitool from a reputable manufacturer, that can also increase cost.  I love Spyderco, but I doubt they would replace a blade that you snapped while using it as a pry bar absolutely free.  And multitool blades are not meant for blade snobs, they are meant to be abused, because more often than not, they will be.  After all, a multitool is something that someone pulls out to use when the job is too rough or dirty to use their fancy knife on.

Yeah, it's 2017, and yeah, as usual, the multitool industry seems like they are way ehind the knife industry in regards to materials and fancy lock mechanisms, but there are a few factors at play- one, multitool pricing really can't beat $100 in most cases, despite much more involved designs and manufacturing.  Few people will pay more than $100 for one, and only Leatherman has really managed to go over $100 in pricing and be successful, although Gerber is making good progress with the Center-Driver.... except of course that it is often found on sale below $100.

The second has to do with what works, what is needed, versus what you are told is needed.  Today's boxes and envelopes are no more advanced or resistant to cutting than those of yesteryear.  Cutting tape or loose threads doesn't require super steels, and these are the things that pocket knives and multitools do more than anything else.  Not everyone is cutting through flaming car wrecks with them, not everyone needs the ultimate honed edge because they don't have time to sharpen it between ninja attacks, and I never really did find much practical use in cutting hemp or sisal rope 400 times before shaving my arms.  And, for the folks that do need those kinds of things, there are usually dedicated products to do those kinds of things, like the Jaws Of Life, so you don't have to try and cut someone out of burning wreckage with a pocket knife.

But, knife manufacturers have huge markups to protect in a very competitive industry, and so they have to come up with CPM's and Dendritic Cobalt, titanium/carbon composites and the like so that you buy a new one this year, because the ultimate knife you bought last year is no longer good enough.  Sure it was great at the time, but the advances in bubble gum technology means that you need a much more high tech knife to scrape it off your shoe than ever before.

Multitool manufacturers may not get the "best" materials in the eyes of the knife guys, but the reality is the knife industry is deluding their customers into thinking they need newer and fancier things all the time just to make more sales- after all, if I spend $90 on a dedicated pocket knife, I want it to last more than a year.

Def

[Aloha]

Nicks channel has really taken off.   He's typically a higher end knife guy so I'm not too surprised.    I recall a video where he specifically talks about knife steel and which he likes/recommends.  I recall 420HC being not liked at all or at the very least not recommend.   

While I can appreciate his view he has a MT on the table with S30V and also mentions the Skeletool with 154CM so  .  Price asked for a MT is the sum of all parts and functions.  So it would seem his grip is price based only which is fine.  Heck we all tend to gripe at the cost of newer MTs.     

Steel snobs are always going to buy a knife well before a MT regardless of what knife steel the MT has.  A MT guy will more than likely have both on them. 

I'd say Nick is more knife/steel snob than anything. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have sent this thread off to Alex at KnifeNews and he says he'll share it with Nick, so maybe we will see Nick here defending his position sometime. 

Def

[pfrsantos]

Just saw some of the vids. I agree with most of the things he says. More than that, I really like the no-nonsense straight-to-the-point approach. Right or wrong, it's his view and he justifies it.

 

[gregozedobe]

Almost every package or envelope is designed to open without tools.

You must be buying much better designed stuff than me. 

It seems that at least half the gadgets I've been buying lately are in a hard clamshell that has been specifically designed to make it very difficult to get at the contents, even when armed with various styles of cutting tools     

I'm guessing this might be deliberate in an attempt to cut down on shoplifing and other theft.

[Grathr]

I love Nick's channel.
I really like his entusiasm and the way he thinks.
His video on knife collecting really hit a nerve 

But this time I disagree with him. Like Grant said, the multitool industry has far smaller profit margins than the knife industry, and I dont think adding a higher end steel on their tools will make the margin any better. The average Joe dont care about steel type, as long as it take a good edge and is easy to sharpen.
I can see a future for better allround corrotion resistance for certain MT makers though.

[Aloha]

He is a good presenter and his content on his channel is great.  I enjoy watching him even if I'm not as into knives as I am MTs. 

I've stated that on MTs asking a higher premium that better steels should be offered.  In particular the MUT.  They used a titanium pocket clip then changed yet continued to ask a premium. 

The Wave is not a good example of a $90 tool demanding higher end steel IMO.  They have the Charge series for those that demand or require higher end steels.  Yes they are much more expensive however can we really compare a $140 knife with high end steel to a Leatherman Charge TTi?  Or even a Wave at $90? 

Simply put a knifes only job is cutting. 

[Dean51]

It starts out “In a knife world gone mad, one man stands up yada, yada” My first thought is who the hay is Nick Shabazz and why should I care. I went thru 3 pages of his knife news and didn't see anything interesting.

I don't think Nick Shabazz understands the market of companies using the so called old steels. He does not even understand the average user, much less the economics of manufacturing.
Does he not realize a Rebar has 9 tools, plus pliers and it has to be done at an affordable price point.

Victorinox, Case, Buck, Leatherman etcetera have made marketing decisions based on their users and the economics of manufacturing. All the common knife steels 1095, x55CrMo14, 420HC, CV, 440A, C75 were chosen because most of their customers don't know how to sharpen or maybe they just use some cheap pull sharpener. If you made a SAK in D2 steel the vast majority of their customers would complain that they could not sharpen it.

On the manufacturering side those so called old steels like 1095, x55CrMo14, 420HC, CV, 440A, C75 can be stamped out by the thousands. Material cost is low, ther're easy to work. Sanding belts last longer and there's no need for expensive water/plasma/laser cutters.

I wonder if Nick Shabazz knows how many knives Victorinox makes a year.

[Aloha]

He has a video discussing diminishing returns of higher priced ( knives ) but he does say it relatable to most edc gear. 

Many of us do consider dimishing returns of gear purchased and many have chose the Wave over the Charge TTi.  He actually has a video stating he would not choose the Charge over the Wave.  He does say he would like the S30V blade but again he's a knife guy so not surprising.

I think he clearly understands the market and understands companies like Leatherman cannot offer higher end steels at low end prices. 

 
   

[rdub934]

I agree with the majority of the assessment to this point. I think I more appreciate a better value option than a higher quality option. Just the way I am - same with vehicles and firearms. Honestly, corrosion resistance is more important to me than edge retention. I can touch up an edge that dulls.

It'd be nice if more companies like TX Toolcrafters  stepped in to offer higher quality blade-swaps for all of our preferred tools.

[Kampfer]

Almost every package or envelope is designed to open without tools.

You must be buying much better designed stuff than me. 

It seems that at least half the gadgets I've been buying lately are in a hard clamshell that has been specifically designed to make it very difficult to get at the contents, even when armed with various styles of cutting tools     

I'm guessing this might be deliberate in an attempt to cut down on shoplifing and other theft.

People who buy gadgets are expected to have gadgets to open up their new gadgets....

Also angle of attack is important, for clamshell package like Leatherman's, simply peel apart the package from the corner, no tools required.

[The Lone Wanderer]

I used to be subscribed to him on Youtube, got tired of his only reviewing expensive stuff and being a blade steel snob.

Half of these guys never ever do anything more than open boxes or cut rope occasionally and yet they need mega super ultra steel that can cut planets in half, its annoying. I'll gladly pay $90 for a Made in the USA or Canada multi tool and be happy about it.

[captain spaulding]

Don't know the guy. I do somewhat agree but for me it comes down to price. 4-5 years back I could get a Wave for $45 shipped on Amazon. Now the price has doubled with no improvements to speak of. Quality control has actually gone down. The quality of the actual tool has declined while the prices have increased. If the price is going to increase dramatically I want dramatic improvements in my tool and quality of that tool. I used to buy Waves (and many other Leathermans) left and right just because it was a great tool at a affordable price. Now that all Leathermans products have increased substantially in price I have not bought any Leatherman in years.

On the flip side I love Victorinox's softer steel and hope they never change it.

[NeitherExtreme]

I think he's a fun reviewer with a clear point of view.

That said... I think upgrading only one piece of the tool past the point of diminishing returns doesn't really fit the 'ethos' of a MT. Of course, it would be fun if there was a market for $1,000+ luxury MTs, where all the tools could be upgraded beyond reason. To date, the Charge line is the closest we've gotten to that (remember the early Titanium/Diamond/Bronze adds?), but in the end they still have mostly 'standard' implements throughout the tool. They seem to represent the 'luxury limit' for the market so far.

Personally, if I could magically upgrade the steel of any component, the Phillips driver would usually be my first choice.

[carboncopy101]

For multitools, there really are more moving parts for more tools so it's really expected that multis should cost more. I'm a sak guy and the steel used by victorinox already satisfies me.

Interestingly, the materials knife manufacturers marketing out are overkill for normal humans. Granted I use knives primarily in multis and i carry pocket knives i never really needed the edge retention boost since you can just sharpen it. Can I also rant how some people are worshipping g-10 and charging premium to it. It's used for circuit boards and it's just plastic.

[WWW]

For multitools, there really are more moving parts for more tools so it's really expected that multis should cost more. I'm a sak guy and the steel used by victorinox already satisfies me.

Interestingly, the materials knife manufacturers marketing out are overkill for normal humans. Granted I use knives primarily in multis and i carry pocket knives i never really needed the edge retention boost since you can just sharpen it. Can I also rant how some people are worshipping g-10 and charging premium to it. It's used for circuit boards and it's just plastic.

A lot of folks become material experts when they get into knives, is just magic you know. Same example can be applied to steels. BTW I'm agreeing with you, I'm not sure why but I feel like my post sounds weird/not clear.

[carboncopy101]

Not at all. I get what you mean. I just wish people would stop making a hype of everything. Like in smartphones for example, they focus more on the brand overlooking the fact that there is a cheaper version of it with the same specs. Well, maybe it's just their preference.

[rdub934]

Don't know the guy. I do somewhat agree but for me it comes down to price. 4-5 years back I could get a Wave for $45 shipped on Amazon. Now the price has doubled with no improvements to speak of. Quality control has actually gone down. The quality of the actual tool has declined while the prices have increased. If the price is going to increase dramatically I want dramatic improvements in my tool and quality of that tool. I used to buy Waves (and many other Leathermans) left and right just because it was a great tool at a affordable price. Now that all Leathermans products have increased substantially in price I have not bought any Leatherman in years.

On the flip side I love Victorinox's softer steel and hope they never change it.

This is a really good point, and I thought maybe it was just me being tight. But, I have been waiting on OHT prices to go down since they release a few years ago... it hasn't happened. In fact, I believe they have gone up by $10. I bought my Wingman right after they released and paid $25 for it in store. Now it's a $34.99 tool. Maybe tool companies (who all seem to be based in the liberal northwest of the US) should move production to the southeastern US?

But seriously, it would be nice if they could offer something extra to make up for the increase in cost.

[captain spaulding]

Don't know the guy. I do somewhat agree but for me it comes down to price. 4-5 years back I could get a Wave for $45 shipped on Amazon. Now the price has doubled with no improvements to speak of. Quality control has actually gone down. The quality of the actual tool has declined while the prices have increased. If the price is going to increase dramatically I want dramatic improvements in my tool and quality of that tool. I used to buy Waves (and many other Leathermans) left and right just because it was a great tool at a affordable price. Now that all Leathermans products have increased substantially in price I have not bought any Leatherman in years.

On the flip side I love Victorinox's softer steel and hope they never change it.

This is a really good point, and I thought maybe it was just me being tight. But, I have been waiting on OHT prices to go down since they release a few years ago... it hasn't happened. In fact, I believe they have gone up by $10. I bought my Wingman right after they released and paid $25 for it in store. Now it's a $34.99 tool. Maybe tool companies (who all seem to be based in the liberal northwest of the US) should move production to the southeastern US?

But seriously, it would be nice if they could offer something extra to make up for the increase in cost.

Either that or they should of never increased the prices in the first place. I am convinced they increased their prices because they wasted a substantial amount of money on product development and research for all those failed "action sports" line of tools. Why should I have to pay for your mistakes? It's exactly what California does to it's residents. Every time they need money because they do not know how to manage money correctly they add a new "tax" and pass the burden on to the consumer. Well this consumer is done playing that game.