If you don't understand a dog....don't have one!

[GraysonK]

This disturbed me and I can't stop thinking about it so I'll tell you all. 
Today during my ride, I was passing a big apartment complex and saw this huge crowd of people.  I slowed down because I saw someone drag a large dog out from between buildings.  Not one, not two, but THREE pit bulls had been fighting.  From the shouting I heard I don't think it was intentional but my heavens...and the owners were shouting at each other just makiing it worse.  There was a crowd around the dogs agitating the situation.  I only got a good look at one of the dogs but his whole little face was bright red....looked like his skin had been torn off.  It was so sad.  And then some jackass tells the cops that show up that one of the dogs needs shot. 
Now, I will readily admit that I'm scared of pits...they take an extremely firm, dedicated hand to train them properly.  Wrapping a length of chain around their necks as a collar is just stupid.  I felt really bad for those dogs today.  Unfortunately, dogs are dogs.  But their people suck sometimes.  I hope the dog I saw is ok.  It was just really disturbing.  From where I was (about 50 yards away) I could see that two of those dogs were still riled up.  And the owners (i'm guessing that's who they are) got into a fight with the police standing right there.  Not conducive to calming the dogs. 
Okay, I'm done. 

[WhichDawg]

wow! I agree with you, people can be so stupid! poor doggies...

I've seen some really cool Pits, smart, friendly, fun, but I still wouldn't get one, not for me.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

You'll never cure stupid

[nuphoria]

I totally agree - idiots should NOT be allowed to own anything which is potentially dangerous. That includes dogs, cars and guns in my book. Sadly there is no actual intelligence test for the above

I hate to see dogs being abused in that way, which is what it is. If you have a breed which can be trained to fight it's your job to make sure that it doesn't. We have a staffy cross who is a soft as butter. I wouldn't have it any other way and she has been trained to be nice and do as she's told. Our local dogs home is full to the brim with casualties of peoples stupidity.

[Zed]

I feel the same way, ive had 2 dogs in my life both lurchers, my last one tolkien deid aged 16 4 years ago this june, i got him aged 2 and he had been badly beaten around his head, sadly he had brain damage because of this,it took me about a good year to get him to trust me but i got there and i can say he was the best dog and friend ive ever had, we went through alot together including my bad divorce , he barked at 2am as he was very ill in the end, he died in my arms at 5am that morning, he was a great dog and i hate seeing people with dogs or any animals that dont treat them right, a life ban ,and ban means ban, 

paul

[GraysonK]

It was just awful yesterday.  I really wish I knew what was going to happen to those dogs.  Pit bulls have such a bad rep.  I have known some very very sweet pit's.  Heck, my little dog Reilly grew up with a pit puppy and we never had a problem.  But the puppy's owner knew what he had and trained him very very well.  They are not the dogs for me because I don't have the personality for it.  It was just so sad.  I hate that those beautiful dogs get such a bad rep. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have a friend like that, and she's going through some serious problems right now.  She weighs all of about 80 pounds and has two dogs- a 95 pound pitbull named Romeo (I call him Fatboy) and a 120 pound rotti/Swiss Mountain Dog cross named Isis (aka Icy-Gurl or Icicle).  Because Icy-Gurl was really sick as a puppy (pooped out some of her organs) she has always been very docile, but Fatboy has always been healthy and because of the breed, very dominant.  My friend has always let him have his way, and now that he's gotten a bit older, and since he's exceptionally fat, he has gotten somewhat cranky, and has bit her a couple of times, and so he pretty well spends most of his time locked in his cage- a place where he has spent a good portion of his life.  

She took the dogs to obedience training once and was pretty well ineffectual because the dogs knew what they had to do, and no one tried to teach my friend anything, and she's the one with the problem.  The dogs are smart, and know all the commands, they just ignore her because they know they can.

In short, it's very frustrating to watch because she can't handle the two of them, has no idea how lucky she is with Icy-Gurl, and has no ability to change herself to properly look after Fatboy.  I have been urging her to either change herself (too self-absorbed for that), give Fatboy away (she has a friend that will take him), or put him down (not a good option, but better than waiting until he bites someone) but she keeps waffling over making a decision and in the meantime, Fatboy just sits in his cage, doing nothing.

Few things bother me as much as improperly managed dogs.....

Pitbulls are a great breed- I love them, and I'm stupid enough to approach strange pitbulls on the street and play with them.  Like any other dog, they respond to a person's energy, and I'm a dog person through and through.  My wife had apprehensions about pitbulls before we got married, and when she'd see me stop and play with strange dogs, she'd pet them too.  I'd always tell her afterwards if it was a pitbull, and she was always surprised to see how happy, friendly and nice pitbulls were, since all she knew about them was the bad press that they get.  She quickly got the point- pitbulls aren't a problem- owners are.  Nuphoria hit the nail on the head with the dogs, cars and guns comment.

My solution to the problem- every dog over thirty pounds needs to have insurance.  That way, responsible owners will be protected, as will anyone with injuries or vet bills resulting from improperly managed/trained large breeds.  Yes, it's a potential expense that large breed owners don't need, but by the same token, it will take a lot of large breeds out of the hands of people who think they are a status symbol, and forget that they are in fact a predatory animal.

Def

[GraysonK]

I have a friend like that, and she's going through some serious problems right now.  She weighs all of about 80 pounds and has two dogs- a 95 pound pitbull named Romeo (I call him Fatboy) and a 120 pound rotti/Swiss Mountain Dog cross named Isis (aka Icy-Gurl or Icicle).  Because Icy-Gurl was really sick as a puppy (pooped out some of her organs) she has always been very docile, but Fatboy has always been healthy and because of the breed, very dominant.  My friend has always let him have his way, and now that he's gotten a bit older, and since he's exceptionally fat, he has gotten somewhat cranky, and has bit her a couple of times, and so he pretty well spends most of his time locked in his cage- a place where he has spent a good portion of his life.  

She took the dogs to obedience training once and was pretty well ineffectual because the dogs knew what they had to do, and no one tried to teach my friend anything, and she's the one with the problem.  The dogs are smart, and know all the commands, they just ignore her because they know they can.

In short, it's very frustrating to watch because she can't handle the two of them, has no idea how lucky she is with Icy-Gurl, and has no ability to change herself to properly look after Fatboy.  I have been urging her to either change herself (too self-absorbed for that), give Fatboy away (she has a friend that will take him), or put him down (not a good option, but better than waiting until he bites someone) but she keeps waffling over making a decision and in the meantime, Fatboy just sits in his cage, doing nothing.

Few things bother me as much as improperly managed dogs.....

Pitbulls are a great breed- I love them, and I'm stupid enough to approach strange pitbulls on the street and play with them.  Like any other dog, they respond to a person's energy, and I'm a dog person through and through.  My wife had apprehensions about pitbulls before we got married, and when she'd see me stop and play with strange dogs, she'd pet them too.  I'd always tell her afterwards if it was a pitbull, and she was always surprised to see how happy, friendly and nice pitbulls were, since all she knew about them was the bad press that they get.  She quickly got the point- pitbulls aren't a problem- owners are.  Nuphoria hit the nail on the head with the dogs, cars and guns comment.

My solution to the problem- every dog over thirty pounds needs to have insurance.  That way, responsible owners will be protected, as will anyone with injuries or vet bills resulting from improperly managed/trained large breeds.  Yes, it's a potential expense that large breed owners don't need, but by the same token, it will take a lot of large breeds out of the hands of people who think they are a status symbol, and forget that they are in fact a predatory animal.

Def

Well said, Boss Man.  It sounds like your friend needs to start taking her dog on some walks and getting the weight off and some energy burned off.  Caesar Milan is a really great resource for people like that.  But only if you are really willing to work at it and commit to your dog.  That's what kills me, dogs are pack animals and when you have one you become a member of their pack...their family...but a lot of times we don't treat them that way.  The only time that I've had a problem with a dog was when I agreed to "foster" a chow/rottie mix for a while...I tried everything I knew to do but the dog grew very very dominant, damn near killed Reilly and tore up my hand.  The agency who asked me to foster wouldn't take her back so I ended up giving her to a friend of my mom who trains those types of dogs.  It was sad, but necessary.  Sounds like your friend needs to recognize her limitations.  And poeple in general should educate themselves. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Her big problem is that she's quite attractive- in fact, she's the one whose picture is in our shirt ads!



As such, she usually just has to pout and people do things for her, and she has no idea how to do things or commit herself to something like this as she's never done it before.  Her dogs don't care what she looks like, and do what dogs do because that's what dogs do.  The problem is, someone can come and manage her dogs, and the dogs behave quite well for me and others, but then she goes home and the dogs don't continue to act the way they did around me (using me as an example- I'm sure it's the same for their trainer) since they have no clear leader.

I'm going to try one more time with her I think- for the dog's sake, not hers.  After that, well I think I am going to impress upon her the importance of getting rid of Romeo before he becomes another "random pitbull attack" statistic.

Def

[nuphoria]

Tough job Def, but you're right to try and get her to understand how messed up that is.

There is actually talk here ATM about bringing in a law to force owners to get third party insurance for their dogs. I'm not entirely against it either. People do need to take responsibility and often a financial commitment will put the jokers off. It would only work if we had the resources to police it properly though which isn't about to happen. Maybe the insurance should be government run so the revenue raised by it allowed the system to function properly and ensure better animal welfare in general.
I also think there should be some kind of compulsory neutering scheme too although I know that would be a difficult thing to implement 

[jzmtl]

I also think there should be some kind of compulsory neutering scheme too although I know that would be a difficult thing to implement 

Why not? Hire a guy, give him a badge and pair of scissors and problem solved. 

[BlueDot]

We have a staffy cross who is a soft as butter. I wouldn't have it any other way and she has been trained to be nice and do as she's told. Our local dogs home is full to the brim with casualties of peoples stupidity.

I have a staffordshire/chow mix, and she's the gentlest, sweetest dog around.  Even lets the miniature doxxie push her around a little.  That said, she is this way because she knows who is boss (in a loving way), and where her boundaries are.

I'd like to see politicians argue over something sensible- like dog insurance, instead of the stupid things they waste my money on.  Anyway, my 2 cents.

[EM745]

(This probably won't be a well-received opinion, but...)

Frankly, I'm hard pressed to figure out why anyone would opt to get a pit or a rott, if not as a status symbol to "impress" and/or intimidate. You need a dog to guard your estate? Fine, get a rott or a GSD. But if one is looking solely for companionship in a "big dog," there are FAR better (i.e. more STABLE) breeds to choose from.

Look, like it or not, whenever the press reports a dog attack, a pit, GSD, rott, or some other mastiff derivative is almost always the culprit. (When's the last time you've heard of a lab mauling a kid?) Oh sure, there are "bad" retreivers out there just as there are "gentle" rotts. But both are the exception rather than the rule.

That's the cold, hard reality of these breeds. They were/are specifically bred with strong guarding and "attack" instincts. The police and military use these breeds for precisely for those reasons. (Don't see too many golden retreiver police/guard dogs, do you?)

And then there are the other difficult breeds. Those that are headstrong and/or difficult to dominate (i.e. force into the clan's omega position). Chows and the "nordic" breeds (huskies, malamutes) come to mind. These too can be dangerous, even though they're not typically thought of as "attack" dogs.

As for the 30+ lb. insurance idea... Do you honestly believe that the owner of a 60 lb. standard poodle should be required to get liability insurance??? Please... I'd sooner force the owner of a 4 lb. POM to get some. A breed's aggressiveness and "hair trigger" responses isn't always related to its size. Poms can be nasty little beasts if let to their own devices, whereas you could punch a 140 lb. newfie on the nose and it probably won't retaliate.

I agree with the insurance idea, but it should be breed-specific, not by weight.

[nuphoria]

Very valid points there mate, and I think that idiots are attracted to big scary mutts for all the wrong reasons. If the unchecked breeding was controlled then our dogs home wouldn't be full of them and people like me would be able to choose easier dogs to rehome. We got lucky with this one as she is easy, but I have seen so many in there which should probably not be rehomed sadly.

There are definitely breeds which should not be in the hands of inexperienced handlers, that's true.

[Grant Lamontagne]

As for the 30+ lb. insurance idea... Do you honestly believe that the owner of a 60 lb. standard poodle should be required to get liability insurance??? Please... I'd sooner force the onwer of a 4 lb. POM to get some. A breed's aggressiveness and "hair trigger" responses isn't always related to its size. Poms can be nasty little beasts if let to their own devices, whereas you could punch a 140 lb. newfie on the nose and it probably won't retaliate.

I agree with the insurance idea, but it should be breed-specific, not by weight.

I disagree- I think that any dog over 30 pounds, regardless of breed can potentially cause significant damage to a person or another animal if sufficiently motivated.  Yes, certain breeds have more potential to attack than others, I can't deny that, but just like your insurance changes depending on what kind of car you have and what kind of training and experience you have, your dog insurance could change based on what kind of dog you have.

The issue with breed specific regulations, it should be broken down by breed families- ie herding, guard, working etc so that bull breeds would be scrutinized much more closely than retrievers.  This way, whenever a "new" breed is created by back alley breeders, it doesn't have to be a recognized breed to be legislated.  Simplicity really when you think about it, but the local city council here would rather spend tax money on stupid things like trying to license cats.   

Enforcement should be done by the SPCA.  They have animal control officers on the streets already, and they should be allowed to issue citations to anyone with a dog that doesn't have current insurance tags.  And, any revenue generated by the citations should be used to support animal shelters.

I agree that pitbulls tend to attract a certain element that we'd all rather not seem them involved with, but pits, rottis and mastiffs are actually beautiful animals with a rich and well documented history.  Many (most) of the problems you see stem from animals that were poorly bred, poorly trained, poorly handled or poorly socialized.  By themselves, they are very respectable animals, and have respectable enthusiasts as well as the less savory types- but again, you almost never hear of them since their dogs aren't the ones in the news.

Def

[EM745]

I disagree- I think that any dog over 30 pounds, regardless of breed can potentially cause significant damage to a person or another animal if sufficiently motivated.

Well, that there is the whole point, isn't it. The breeds I've stated have specifically been bred to require less "motivation" to elicit an attack response.

Proper training can indeed help keep these instincts in check, but it can never block them out completely.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I'm not sure I agree with that either- I have met some very docile and friendly pitbulls, who are very happy outgoing and non aggressive dogs.  My guess is that you haven't got a lot of experience with the "good" dogs, or else you'd probably be a bit more accepting of them.  I'd also like to point out that the only time I've ever gotten a significant bite from a dog was from a collie.

Pitbulls are not aggressive animals by themselves- it's just people think about them that way because that's all they hear about, and they don't often equate the neighbor's happy pooch with being a pitbull.  Next time you see someone with a "hate the deed, not the breed" bumper sticker, stop and talk to them and I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

One of the reasons these dogs are feared more than any other is because of the power they have, so when they do attack, they cause much more damage than a lab usually does when they attack- and they do.

Def

[GraysonK]

I'm not sure I agree with that either- I have met some very docile and friendly pitbulls, who are very happy outgoing and non aggressive dogs.  My guess is that you haven't got a lot of experience with the "good" dogs, or else you'd probably be a bit more accepting of them.  I'd also like to point out that the only time I've ever gotten a significant bite from a dog was from a collie.

Pitbulls are not aggressive animals by themselves- it's just people think about them that way because that's all they hear about, and they don't often equate the neighbor's happy pooch with being a pitbull.  Next time you see someone with a "hate the deed, not the breed" bumper sticker, stop and talk to them and I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

One of the reasons these dogs are feared more than any other is because of the power they have, so when they do attack, they cause much more damage than a lab usually does when they attack- and they do.

Def

Excellent points, Def.  I'm personally of the opinion that there are not bad dogs just bad people that own them.  Even that's not entirely accurate.  There are several breeds, including Labs, who have the potential to be very energetic and very aggressive.  A pit bull is a terrier.  They are tenacious, courageous, full of energy.  The only difference between a Pit Bull Terrier or Staffordshire Bull Terrier is size and power.  From the American Kennel Club:

AKC Breeds by Group
Terrier Group

People familiar with this Group invariably comment on the distinctive terrier personality. These are feisty, energetic dogs whose sizes range from fairly small, as in the Norfolk, Cairn or West Highland White Terrier, to the grand Airedale Terrier. Terriers typically have little tolerance for other animals, including other dogs. Their ancestors were bred to hunt and kill vermin. Many continue to project the attitude that they're always eager for a spirited argument. Most terriers have wiry coats that require special grooming known as stripping in order to maintain a characteristic appearance. In general, they make engaging pets, but require owners with the determination to match their dogs' lively characters.

Terriers in general require a firm hand regardless of size.  And yes, even a Jack Russell terrier will attack.  It may not be capable of crushing every bone in your arm if it latches on, but it will do damage.  Any dog can do damage.  And any dog that is not properly handled.  But terriers especially.

As for Rotties, Mastiffs, and other working dogs.  That's what they are...working dogs.  If you don't give them a purpose, train them correctly, and give them plenty of exercise they are going to build up a lot of energy that will be released in destructive ways.  And they can be extremely protective. 

German Shepherds are Herding dogs...extremely intelligent.  Again, they require training and a lot of exercise. 

These dogs are not inherently bad.  None of them are.  A toy poodle can be aggressive.  The dogs are not the problem.  People are.  Here, in a college town, there is simply no reason that a college kid, living in an apartment, with hardly any grass anywhere, who rarely walks their dog let alone take the time to train it should have a Rottie, Pit Bull, German Shepherd, or any other large energetic breed.  Are there exceptions?  Sure.  But most people see these dogs and think of the "shock value" they'll get from other people.  It's stupid and immature. 

Incidentally, the American Pit Bull is not an AKC registered breed, but there is a lot of good information on their website www.akc.org regarding all kinds of breeds including info about temperament and what kind of person or family should own one.  It's a great resource. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I'd read a statistic somewhere once- I have no idea of it's validity or it's source but I'm inclined to believe it- that said toy breeds are more likely to bite than all other breeds combined, but since they rarely cause significant damage to the victim, and as a result are rarely reported, they don't have a bad reputation like other types of dogs.

And yes, there are bad dogs- but they are often the result of illness, overbreeding, etc.  Like anyone/anything else, dogs can be victims of mental illness, which may make them incapable of a "normal" life.

One more point- I had a dog for years that was amazingly more powerful than any pitbull I've ever met, a dogo argentino, and he was the nicest dog you'd ever want to meet, despite having been abused in a previous home.  Potentially, he was the most dangerous dog I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of dogs!  Pete was fast, intelligent, and blessed with a pain tolerance that was well off the scale.  If he'd wanted to, he could have torn apart the population of a small town before anyone could have stopped him.  He was also put in numerous dangerous and defensive situations, as we worked security together for years, and he never hurt anyone in any situation, although he did help me take a few people down on several occasions.

Def

[GraysonK]

I'd read a statistic somewhere once- I have no idea of it's validity or it's source but I'm inclined to believe it- that said toy breeds are more likely to bite than all other breeds combined, but since they rarely cause significant damage to the victim, and as a result are rarely reported, they don't have a bad reputation like other types of dogs.

And yes, there are bad dogs- but they are often the result of illness, overbreeding, etc.  Like anyone/anything else, dogs can be victims of mental illness, which may make them incapable of a "normal" life.

One more point- I had a dog for years that was amazingly more powerful than any pitbull I've ever met, a dogo argentino, and he was the nicest dog you'd ever want to meet, despite having been abused in a previous home.  Potentially, he was the most dangerous dog I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of dogs!  Pete was fast, intelligent, and blessed with a pain tolerance that was well off the scale.  If he'd wanted to, he could have torn apart the population of a small town before anyone could have stopped him.  He was also put in numerous dangerous and defensive situations, as we worked security together for years, and he never hurt anyone in any situation, although he did help me take a few people down on several occasions.

Def

He sounds like he was a wonderful partner there Grant. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

He was the best.  I miss him.

Def

[BlueDot]

He was the best.  I miss him.

Def

Yes.  A good dog is more than a pet. 
Had to put my first dog to sleep almost 16 years ago, and reading these posts- i still miss him.   

[Kmarr]

I've had my dog for less than a year and I get teary eyed at the thought of losing him.  Quite the risky little bugger- he snacks on anything he can get when my back is turned: Q-tips, rabbit poo, DOG poo, plastic, Braun chargers, headphones, wrappers, cardboard, etc...

If it exists on this earth, my dog will gladly stuff it in his jowls!

[BlueDot]

If it exists on this earth, my dog will gladly stuff it in his jowls!

You should start a new thread:  What has your dog eaten (or barfed up)?     

[Fisting_Chili]

fully agree.  bad dog owners piss me off.

this is a great and informative site that some friends of mine work on.
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/index.html