UK Legal Multi's and Saks for EDC

[Grant Lamontagne]

That's ok, the state of Michigan once tried to ban multitools and SAKs, citing them as "burglars tools."   

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

That's ok, the state of Michigan once tried to ban multitools and SAKs, citing them as "burglars tools."   

Def

I remember that, kinda idiotic wasn't it

[Grant Lamontagne]

That's what we get for allowing politicians to make laws!

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

That's what we get for allowing politicians to make laws!

Def

One day, when I'm running the planet, I'm going to declare an open season on politicians

[FredKJ]

I'm in the US and not the UK so it's not as bad but is getting there.

Not to get political, but the problem in the US isn't the laws, it's the fact that they change from state to state.  What's legal in one state may not be legal in the next, and even if it's legal in both states, there may be a federal law broken by taking it over state law, since the Feds regulate interstate transportation.

While I could never support increased legislation on anything, I'd have to support some kind of bill that would make things like knives even across the board like it is in most other countries.  Of course if such a thing was ever developed, it would probably be something silly and unenforceable like the UK's banning of pointy kitchen knives.   

Def

It not only varies from state to state but from city to city.  It makes it a royal pain.

The biggest difference I've seen between the US and UK is that in the UK you have to have a "reason to carry".  Anotherwards if you can show it is needed for your occupation it's ok.  That usually requires an affirmative defense.  Anotherwards the burden of proof is on you. In "most" places in the US the typical pocket knife/SAK/multi-tool does not require this.  But for instance laws can vary on legal length.  Some places might say 3 inches, some 2.5 inches.  Of course it changes if you are seen as using it in a threatening or reckless manor(again that gets pretty subjective).  Typically in the US to carry something like a longer fixed blade knife you have to show reason to carry.  For instance you are camping/hunting/fishing etc.  

It usually boils down to perception though.  If a cop is having a bad day and wants to find a reason to mess with you he will.  

My Gerber multi-tool has a locking mechanism which I suppose could be problematic.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I'd vote for you in an instant....

Def

[damota]

I think most multis and SAKs are not looked at as weapons by the average UK officer, they are mainly tools so unless in a place were trouble makers congregate along with the normal public (pubs, night clubs, football matches) I think most officers would pass over them. with a plausible excuse being given.
Of course there is the ambitious officer who is after a result no matter were he can get it. There is also the modern way policing is being done in the UK were they get browny points for every result and have a quoter to cover, so an easier result is pursued, nothing as easy as a bloke caught with a dangerous weapon no matter how innocent he is.
Age also has a lot to do with the polices attitude, under 18 you can not have anything now, between 18 and thirty I would say is the dangerous age (I would say be very choosy what you carry and preferably leave them at home) 30 to fifties they will respect you more over 60 you will have lot less to bother about. I find this disgusting but if you happen to be black or brown forget carrying anything till the police grow up (if they ever do).

Dave

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I'd vote for you in an instant....

Def

Thanks boss, I'm sure I'll find a job for you, or two

[FredKJ]

We had a case here in Georgia where a 17 year old honors student had a SAK found just sitting in his car in a school parking lot.  He was actually charged with a felony.  The words insane and absurd come to mind.  When I was in school back when dinosaurs roamed the earth teachers would ask me to borrow my pocket knife.

[Benner]

I'd be interested to here what Jock has to say on the subject.

[Grant Lamontagne]

That sounds ominous....

forget carrying anything till the police grow up (if they ever do).

There are more good cops on the streets than bad ones- at least in my experience, and I deal with cops fairly often in my line of work.  Of course, as with anything else, it's the bad ones that get noticed, and as cops, they tend to get noticed more than the bad of most other things.  A slow cashier at the grocery store is an annoyance for maybe an hour or so, but memories of a jerk with a badge will stick with you for years.

We had a case here in Georgia where a 17 year old honors student had a SAK found just sitting in his car in a school parking lot.  He was actually charged with a felony.  The words insane and absurd come to mind.  When I was in school back when dinosaurs roamed the earth teachers would ask me to borrow my pocket knife.

That wasn't a cop, that was a security guard.  You all know my opinion on those buggers.  Additionally, being charged with a crime is meaningless, and according to school policy, was the action taken automatically.  I agree, it was dumb, but lets blame the idiot policy makers, not the dumbass on the street!

Def

[Benner]

Does the PPP have locking blades?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Nope.  It has the PST type backsprings.

Def

[Benner]

Nope.  It has the PST type backsprings.

Def

That's one to add to the list then.

[FredKJ]

That sounds ominous....

forget carrying anything till the police grow up (if they ever do).

There are more good cops on the streets than bad ones- at least in my experience, and I deal with cops fairly often in my line of work.  Of course, as with anything else, it's the bad ones that get noticed, and as cops, they tend to get noticed more than the bad of most other things.  A slow cashier at the grocery store is an annoyance for maybe an hour or so, but memories of a jerk with a badge will stick with you for years.

We had a case here in Georgia where a 17 year old honors student had a SAK found just sitting in his car in a school parking lot.  He was actually charged with a felony.  The words insane and absurd come to mind.  When I was in school back when dinosaurs roamed the earth teachers would ask me to borrow my pocket knife.

That wasn't a cop, that was a security guard.  You all know my opinion on those buggers.  Additionally, being charged with a crime is meaningless, and according to school policy, was the action taken automatically.  I agree, it was dumb, but lets blame the idiot policy makers, not the dumbass on the street!

Def

Cop or security guard I don't know.  It might have been what we know see in many schools here as a "school resource officer".  That is a cop assigned to a school.  It's typically some cop who lacks the competency to have a regular beat and they stick them in a school.  The typical cop/security guard assigned in a school is not your sharpest tool on the SAK.  They're usually a notch below Barney Fife.  That's the typical type who lives with a bad day and lacking grey matter or common sense.

But these are the types who you would expect to mess with you.  Usually carrying the typical SAK/multi-tool won't cause a lot of issues except in "hot zones" like schools, courthouses, bars and pubs etc.  That is unless you come across some "official" having a bad day or wanting to fill a quota.

[NutSAK]

Does the UK blade length law consider only the sharpened edge, but the entire length of the blade, including the tang?

The reason I ask is that I'm fairly certain I measured a 108mm Vic to be slightly less than 3" at the sharpened edge.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Does the UK blade length law consider only the sharpened edge, but the entire length of the blade, including the tang?

The reason I ask is that I'm fairly certain I measured a 108mm Vic to be slightly less than 3" at the sharpened edge.

The law says the ''cutting'' edge has to be under 76mm/3 inches, but to be on the safe side, it's best to go for a rough under 3inch total blade length to be on the safe side

[FredKJ]

Does the UK blade length law consider only the sharpened edge, but the entire length of the blade, including the tang?

The reason I ask is that I'm fairly certain I measured a 108mm Vic to be slightly less than 3" at the sharpened edge.

Some laws I've seen don't specify this.  Again things can get pretty vague.

[jock1]

I personally wouldn,t take the chance of carrying anything that came close to the limit my edc is a vic swiss champ and I don't carry it if I 'm going out at night to the pub etc .I have posted more in depth guidelines on this thread  but basically keep it under 3 inches (THE BLADE YOU HORRIBLE LOT) don't be waving it  about and think if you saw a complete stranger pull that out how comfortable  would you feel

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I personally wouldn,t take the chance of carrying anything that came close to the limit my edc is a vic swiss champ and I don't carry it if I 'm going out at night to the pub etc .I have posted more in depth guidelines on this thread  but basically keep it under 3 inches (THE BLADE YOU HORRIBLE LOT) don't be waving it  about and think if you saw a complete stranger pull that out how comfortable  would you feel

That's a pretty good guide line to live by mate, cheers

[flapjackboy]

I've just been reading up on the UK knife legislation and the only restriction on locking blades other than length would be regarding 'gravity knives' and switchblades.

The legislation regarding locking folders is a bit ambiguous. Since manual locking folders don't use any form of mechanical assisted opening device, they don't fall under the legislation regarding gravity blades or switchblades. The wording of the 3" folding blade section in the Criminal Justice Act does not mention locking anywhere, but there was a ruling in Regina vs Desmond Garcia Deegan (1998) that 'folding' meant non locking.

IMHO, liner locks should be legal as they are a safety measure for the owner of the blade, not something designed to expedite deployment of the blade or aid in blade concealment. Even with one handed openers, the design is to make the blade easier to operate whilst working, not easier to deploy when attacking someone.

[Benner]

If only that were the case.    The law states (somewhere) that any blade that has a lock on it or is over 3" cannot be carried out in public without a good reason.  The type of lock from what I understand makes no difference.

[Grant Lamontagne]

While you may be technically correct in the interpretation of the law, it can and will likely be interpreted differently on the street by a passing constable, and differently again when you are appearing in front of a magistrate.  Is carrying a locking blade worth spending a lot of time and money getting much better acquainted with the legal system?  The problem with that is that even when you win, you lose, as the courts don't usually rule to have the money and time spent returned to you, even if you do manage to get your knife back.

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

If a folder has a lock, it regarded as a fixed blade by the authorities over here , totally bloody stupid, but who ever said laws had to make sence

[Grant Lamontagne]

Is that actually what the law says, or just what you have heard?

I hear all kinds of "knife laws" in Canada from all kinds of "informed"  people.  We have a little thing called the Criminal Code of Canada that has all kinds of laws written into it, and very few of the "knife laws" I hear from those "informed people" are in there.

It always pays to read what's actually in the books once in a while rather than go on propaganda and hearsay.

Def

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Is that actually what the law says, or just what you have heard?

I hear all kinds of "knife laws" in Canada from all kinds of "informed"  people.  We have a little thing called the Criminal Code of Canada that has all kinds of laws written into it, and very few of the "knife laws" I hear from those "informed people" are in there.

It always pays to read what's actually in the books once in a while rather than go on propaganda and hearsay.

Def

Nope its real, if the knife locks, its percieved as a fixed blade

[Benner]

Is that actually what the law says, or just what you have heard?

I hear all kinds of "knife laws" in Canada from all kinds of "informed"  people.  We have a little thing called the Criminal Code of Canada that has all kinds of laws written into it, and very few of the "knife laws" I hear from those "informed people" are in there.

It always pays to read what's actually in the books once in a while rather than go on propaganda and hearsay.

Def

Nope its real, if the knife locks, its percieved as a fixed blade

Sadly Mike is correct. 

They can still be carried though, as long as you have a good reason to be carrying it.

[Benner]

Here's one case some may find of interest...
http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/arrested_rights/Harris_DirPubPros.htm

[flapjackboy]

This is madness. Basically, the conclusion reached in the link Benner posted was that liner locks make a blade a more effective weapon because there is no risk of the blade folding back on the attacker's hand. 

How about the possibility that it makes the tool safer to use for the same reason? The simple fact is that most of these blades are carried for reasons other than self defence. They're just one tool on a multi, carried because it's useful to the owner and utilised in their day to day life. This ruling is effectively criminalising people who value their own safety whilst using a tool just because a few toerags will use the same tool to stab someone.

It's no coincidence that politicians are always the first against the wall in revolutions. 

[Benner]

I know, it is very frustrating.