Is ZDP-189 all that it's claimed to be?

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Hi guys,

I keep hearing (or reading as the case may be) people rave about the new ZDP steel.  I also have seen a fully serrated Endura 4 FFG in ZDP that looks very appealing.  I don't have any serrated knives, and I hate CE blades because you never get enough of either type of edge in one blade to be useful.

So in short, I was considering getting a fully spyder edged Endura in the ZDP because it's supposed to hold an edge so well, and serrated blades are notoriously difficult to sharpen.

Any thoughts?  Recommendations?

Thanks in advance.

[jekostas]

You really have two different questions here.

The first question - is ZDP-189 all it's cracked up to be?  Absolutely.  It's a phenomenal steel that holds an edge for a very long time and can get absolutely scary, wicked sharp.  You need to make sure you don't get it too wet because of the very large amount of carbon in it, but a quick wipe down with mineral oil every once in a while should be sufficient.

As to getting a ZDP serrated knife... that's a whole other kettle of fish.  If you have a knife that you will be using regularly, it doesn't matter if it's made of lead or diamond - it *will* eventually get dull and need to be resharpened.  If you find serrations difficult to sharpen ZDP will be an absolute nightmare for you. 

On the other hand, ZDP is also not a steel that you can simply get, sharpen and forget either.  Microscopic corrosion will eventually wear away the edge, leaving it dull and useless when you do need it.  ZDP is a steel that works best with regular use and regular stropping to keep the edge fresh and sharp.

[CQC-7]

Hi guys,

I keep hearing (or reading as the case may be) people rave about the new ZDP steel.  I also have seen a fully serrated Endura 4 FFG in ZDP that looks very appealing.  I don't have any serrated knives, and I hate CE blades because you never get enough of either type of edge in one blade to be useful.

So in short, I was considering getting a fully spyder edged Endura in the ZDP because it's supposed to hold an edge so well, and serrated blades are notoriously difficult to sharpen.

Any thoughts?  Recommendations?

Thanks in advance.

Although I cannot give a detailed description as good as Jekostas, I do have some experience with that steel.  It is truly a "wonder steel" but it does require care as he said.  My recomendation is if you are going to USE the endura a lot, like as a work knife, go for it.  If you want a really good, functional, unique "gentlemans folder," opt for the Spyderco Caly in ZDP with CF scales.  If you are gonna pay around $100 or so, go the extra 30 and get a more refined model if that makes any sense.  Plus it is unique and if you don't like it anymore someone could always flip you a few bucks for it. 

Serrations are another story.  I used to love them.  Now I despise them.  They have their place like everything else.  I have bought several knives with combo edge blades because that was the only option.  However, the more that I used them and then spend a lot of time sharpening them the more I realized that I can do without them.  If you cut a lot of cordage, or stuff that requires "bite" serrations are good, just get a spyderco specific sharpener.  I found that most stuff I cut is not cordage nor does it require a bite greater than what i get from a standard plain edge.       

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Thanks for the info guys.  My intent was to have it as a utility or work knife, hoping that the hardness of the steel would reduce required maintenance of the edge.  It's not that I can't sharpen a serrated knife, it's just a PITA to do so.  I'm also not sure that my sharpening skills would be up to something like a blade made of ZDP. 

I got a standard FRN VG10 Endura 4 FFG last week, and a Dragonfly 2;  The DF2 is my new pocket EDC, and the Endura is my back-up/utility knife I keep in my EDC bag.  They're both great knives.  Now that I have the Endura, I've repurposed my Tenacious as a general beater knife that I keep in my hiking/camping/BOB backpack.  That's what got me started on this whole Spyderco kick... I was just so impressed by the Tenacious, I had to get more and better Spydercos...   

From what you've said, for a utility knife that I can keep in the kitchen drawer or in my handman toolbox I use for small jobs around the house, a Byrd Wings would probably be a better choice, since it's inexpensive, would be easier to maintain, and since I'll probably beat the crap out of a knife used for such purposes anyway.

I have been jonesing bad for a Sage 1 though, I must say...   I'm trying to find a way to justify to myself the legitimacy of spending $100 or more on a single knife...   

[Styerman]

I like the Spyderco itterations I have tried . Take that with a grain os salt , as I'm no steel snob , just a veteran user .

Chris

[jzmtl]

Don't be too fixated on blade steel, unless you cut drywall all day long it won't make that much of a difference. The longer it takes to dull the longer it also takes to make it sharp again. Touch up your edge before it gets really dull so it won't be a pain in the butt each time. I have all sorts of supersteel knives but right now my EDC is the lowly aus8.

[Styerman]

Don't be too fixated on blade steel, unless you cut drywall all day long it won't make that much of a difference. The longer it takes to dull the longer it also takes to make it sharp again. Touch up your edge before it gets really dull so it won't be a pain in the butt each time. I have all sorts of supersteel knives but right now my EDC is the lowly aus8.

Bingo !

Chris

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Don't be too fixated on blade steel, unless you cut drywall all day long it won't make that much of a difference. The longer it takes to dull the longer it also takes to make it sharp again. Touch up your edge before it gets really dull so it won't be a pain in the butt each time. I have all sorts of supersteel knives but right now my EDC is the lowly aus8.

I keep hearing that 8Cr13mov is supposed to be about the quality as AUS8, and I've put a pretty wicked edge on my Tenacious...  not as sharp as I *could* get it mind you... because I've reprofiled it so it has a convex edge now, instead of the regular saber style grind that Sypderco's come with.  I did that because I think it makes for a stronger edge that will last longer and cut more effectively.  It'll still slice paper like butter though, and power through cardboard too, so I've got no complaints with it's steel.  My new Dragonfly 2 though?  Whoa... that thing is scary, and I do mean *scary* sharp... it's sharper than my new Endura.

[jzmtl]

Factory edge is kinda a crap shoot, sometimes you get a good one other times you get a butter knife.

If you have the patience, reprofile the dragonfly to 20° edge, won't be strong at that angle but it goes through stuff like laser. 

[Accujohn]

Don't be too fixated on blade steel, unless you cut drywall all day long it won't make that much of a difference. The longer it takes to dull the longer it also takes to make it sharp again. Touch up your edge before it gets really dull so it won't be a pain in the butt each time. I have all sorts of supersteel knives but right now my EDC is the lowly aus8.

Couldnt have said it better. Ive been through all the super steels... They are interesting but not necessary if you have a few moments each week to touch up on ceramic rods

[asupernothing]

I more or less have to agree with what the others have said about ZDP-189, its nice and it does hold an edge well.
As far as blade steels are concerned though I think I will be sticking to VG-10 and S30v.
I do like playing with different steels and have been trying to test out M390. I've got a few Mules in M390, but haven't used them at all yet. I had a BM710 in M390 for a few days, but I just didn't like the way it felt in my hand.

Overall I have really grown fond of VG-10, it sharpens easily to a wicked edge and then holds that edge. For what its worth I have two fixed blades on the way and only because they were VG10.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the newest "super-steel" isn't always the best for you. You just need to get a few different steels and decide which is your favorite.

[jekostas]

Overall I have really grown fond of VG-10, it sharpens easily to a wicked edge and then holds that edge. For what its worth I have two fixed blades on the way and only because they were VG10.

I agree with that.  VG-10, while a very hard steel with excellent edge retention, is much easier than comparable steels to resharpen - something about the extra vanadium in the alloy.  There are a few different companies that use it as well.

[asupernothing]

- something about the extra vanadium in the alloy.

I thought it was the cobalt that made it easy to sharpen. S30v also has a lot more vanadium and is a bit harder to sharpen. My understanding was that vanadium is used because it forms finer, harder carbides and allows for greater wear resistance at lower overall hardness. However the vanadium carbides make sharpening a bit more difficult.

[jekostas]

- something about the extra vanadium in the alloy.

I thought it was the cobalt that made it easy to sharpen. S30v also has a lot more vanadium and is a bit harder to sharpen. My understanding was that vanadium is used because it forms finer, harder carbides and allows for greater wear resistance at lower overall hardness. However the vanadium carbides make sharpening a bit more difficult.

You're probably right.  Haven't really read up on compositional alloy effects lately.  Regardless, VG-10 = good.

[jzmtl]

VG10 only had 0.1% vanadium, act more as a grain refiner not carbide former.

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[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Excellent info guys!     This has all been very informative for me. 

I've done a bit of reading on these different kinds of steel; I think the 8Cr13Mov and VG10 are going to be the best choices for me for now.  I'll wait until I feel like either of these isn't meeting my needs until I decide to buy a knife based on the steel alone.  If I end up with something with S30V in it, it'll be because I've finally broken down completely and impulse bought a Sage I or the like...

JZ; the edge on my new DF2 already looks like it's about 20º, but I can't be sure...  I was actually thinking of doing just a little bit of convexing on it, but I'm hesitant to try because as it is right now, it is a little laser...  it literally glides through envelopes... don't have to saw it or anything like that... just push it straight through and it leaves a cut as clean as if I'd used a scalpel!!!

Also, I was taught to sharpen by a master chef in one of the restaurants I worked in as a prep-cook back in my early 20's, and there wasn't any kind of angling tool or anything like that that he used... he taught me to do it all freehand and to visually inspect the angle, and to check for flash and burrs by touch.  That's the way I learned and the way I am still most comfortable with.  I think one advantage of it is that it lets me really get a good feel for the edge and to know where it does and doesn't need a bit more work.  I like that connection with the blade it gives me when I sharpen that way.

I suppose it does take more work that way than if I were to use something like a Sharpmaker, and probably not as consistent of an edge, but right now I don't feel a need for one.  The Smith diamond stone I have does a good enough job for now. 

Thanks again for all your info guys.  As sweet as it would be to have something like a ZDP blade, I'm gonna hold off for now.

[jzmtl]

JZ; the edge on my new DF2 already looks like it's about 20º, but I can't be sure...  I was actually thinking of doing just a little bit of convexing on it, but I'm hesitant to try because as it is right now, it is a little laser...  it literally glides through envelopes... don't have to saw it or anything like that... just push it straight through and it leaves a cut as clean as if I'd used a scalpel!!!

20° inclusive, 10° per side. Anyway at this angle it's not practical for EDC anymore, more for smurfs and giggles than anything else.

Sounds like you are pretty good at freehand sharpening so really no need for convex or jig, just get a few good stones and stick with what you are good at.