Anyone want to play SwissTool vs Charge?

[AimlessWanderer]

The Charge does have the 154CM blade, so that's a point in its favor.

Better edge retention, but more brittle and harder to sharpen
I personally prefer ease of sharpening - a point I forgot to make earlier

[turnsouth]

Personally I find it very awkward to use like that...

True, I've tried hooking different types of lanyards on there and it always has the "in the way" feeling to it. But with a quick release like Dunc's, it's a handy option for those times when you want that extra security.

[Syph007]

I will bite, and do a counter point.

If you are in a wet environment, or think you will be, the Charge is your champion. The Swisstool's biggest failing is the super beautiful polished finish that will ensure a slippery experience. I don't like having to fumble with a tool when I need it.

Id have to point out the opposite.  In a wet environment the swisstool wont rust.  The charge components will rust in just a damp environment, doenst even have to be wet.

[turnsouth]

The Charge does have the 154CM blade, so that's a point in its favor.

Better edge retention, but more brittle and harder to sharpen
I personally prefer ease of sharpening - a point I forgot to make earlier

Anyone have experience field sharpening 154cm?

[Grant Lamontagne]

If you are also planning to bring a small sharpener like a Lansky Dog Bone type then you should be ok.  If you aren't beinging a dedicated stone with you then a SwissTool can be sharpened anywhere- bottom of a coffee mug, edge of a car window, flat rock and so on.

Def

[Syph007]

Hope there's something in here that helps mate 

All good stuff Al, but...

If working at height the Charge would without doubt be the tool to go for.

(Image removed from quote.)
Image copyright Dunc

Personally I find it very awkward to use like that - but point taken 

You could do the same mod I did to the spirit to the full size swisstool.  Drill through the rivet.  This was the only con for me for both swisstools, other than that they are pure MT PERFECTION to me, fit and finish, design and tool load out.... I LOVE LOVE LOVE the swisstools!!!!   

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,32268.msg533662.html#msg533662

[Syph007]

The Charge does have the 154CM blade, so that's a point in its favor.

For me, the ST is stainless, so it wont rust, 154CM will, point to ST in my opinion.

[Dunc]

Swisstool - Chisel

Overcome by a few minutes of stone work on the Charges pry-bar

But once modded you then loose the highly valuable prybar/large driver .

Love seeing my old pic with the lanyard 

[Ashley]

I think victorinox swisstools are better made then leatherman. The RS would be a great tool for a rescue situation and bag. The outside tools are easier to get to on the charge but I perfer the swisstool because ALL tools are located on the outside. I also feel you can get more used out of the swisstool pliers rather then the charge. They seem better made.

Pocket carry : swisstool spirit

Bag: swisstool

[turnsouth]

Swisstool - Chisel

Overcome by a few minutes of stone work on the Charges pry-bar

But once modded you then loose the highly valuable prybar/large driver .

True, too bad no one has come up with a tool that has both a prybar and chisel...

Love seeing my old pic with the lanyard 

#2 on Google 

[Carlos]

Hmmm I'm detecting here some kind of MTo members contradiction: while in this thread ST is being clearly being favored, the (inf)famous unofficial best tool poll puts the charge family on advantage, and note that majority of points taken here are regardless of taking in consideration the charge al or other variant, like the tti.

[turnsouth]

I think victorinox swisstools are better made then leatherman. The RS would be a great tool for a rescue situation and bag.

While in my shoulder bag it's going to just be for everyday use, but what I would really like is a "SwissTool Y", with a plain edge for utility use, a serrated blade for rope and salami slicing, and scissors with no file. I mean, a file is handy, and the RS blade is well designed for it's intended use, but there is nothing like a serrated Vic blade for slicing sausages

Then again the Charge has all four implements, with diamonds on the file as a bonus.

[Carlos]

Better ruler on the ST: can be used even with the tool closed and have more practical use, since the marks are on the sides.

[Carlos]

- plus for ST: the file on the ST is also a metal saw. The file on the charge al hardly can be used to say metals.

- plus for AL: with pliers closed, as tools open both ways, you can have TWO usable tools opened at once on the AL, eg. the knife and the scissors. As all tools open to the same way in the ST, you can only have one tool open at a time.

- plus for ST: with pliers opened, both can have about 3 tools opened at a time: pliers and 2 more on each handle. The ST has a little advantage here because you choose any of the tools to be opened, while on the AL only the smalls tools are available.

[turnsouth]

Hmmm I'm detecting here some kind of MTo members contradiction: while in this thread ST is being clearly being favored, the (inf)famous unofficial best tool poll puts the charge family on advantage, and note that majority of points taken here are regardless of taking in consideration the charge al or other variant, like the tti.

There does seem to be a leaning towards the ST, but I think that it has to mostly do with my intended use. Like Al said in a earlier post, if you want a work tool to get dirty with, the Charge/Wave might be the best option, but here I'm looking for the best non-work "all around" MT.

But then again it's only Saturday, and things might change when members get to work on Monday, start their shifts and turn on the company computers in order to spend quality time here.

[AimlessWanderer]

Hmmm I'm detecting here some kind of MTo members contradiction: while in this thread ST is being clearly being favored, the (inf)famous unofficial best tool poll puts the charge family on advantage, and note that majority of points taken here are regardless of taking in consideration the charge al or other variant, like the tti.

The other thread was light hearted fun - this one's real   

Better ruler on the ST: can be used even with the tool closed and have more practical use, since the marks are on the sides.

The "square" has been useful for me too. Putting up my father's greenhouse for him as I recall

True, too bad no one has come up with a tool that has both a prybar and chisel...

The chisel on the ST is longer and a smidge wider than the LM driver
The pry tool on the ST is same length, but wider and thicker than the LM driver

Basically the Charge AL wins on:
Grip, carry (clip and attachment points), diamond file, OHO, ease of maintenance, needle nose, edge retention, better in harsh environments

Swisstool (Plus model) wins on ... everything else:
Scissors, pry, drivers (contentious but true - length, range, torque, restricted access screws), saw (cuts in both directions), awl, ruler, square, hex bit compatability, bottle opener, can opener, file aggression, metal saw, plier head strength, warranty (lifetime not 25 years), blade durability and ease of sharpening, locking mechanism (no nasty liner locks), more tools/features per cubic inch, corkscrew, eye glasses driver, fit and finish, tool access

[turnsouth]

If you are also planning to bring a small sharpener like a Lansky Dog Bone type then you should be ok.  If you aren't beinging a dedicated stone with you then a SwissTool can be sharpened anywhere- bottom of a coffee mug, edge of a car window, flat rock and so on.

Def

The Charge does have the 154CM blade, so that's a point in its favor.

Better edge retention, but more brittle and harder to sharpen
I personally prefer ease of sharpening - a point I forgot to make earlier

Interesting thing, I finally got me a Sharpermaker, never thought that I needed one, then I watched one of those YouTube videos where a guy was literally splitting hairs after using one, and I thought "I want to do that!"
 
So anyway, my first task was to put an even bevel on my Wave and get rid of the coarse edge surface that Leatherman puts on them (not that it has ever bothered me, if you look at my Leatherman Knife Edge Preferences thread you'll see that I like the micro serrations), what a chore that has turned out to be I've been working it off and on for days now trying to smooth out the edge on the coarse stones, but even with just the 420HC it is a lot of work. I can only imagine imagine how long it would take on the 154cm

Granted the edge is much more even on the Charge, and even with the utility edge Leatherman has put on it, I can still slice through printer paper. But I think I will invest in the diamond stones before I consider taking that task on.

Back on point, ever since I got my SwissTool last summer, and the other ones since then (they're a bit like chips, you can't have just one ), I've just touched up the blades with a Gerber pocket Sharpener, and went on my way cutting happily. This morning I decided to give them a try on the Sharpmaker, just to see what they would do.

I must say it was amazing, just a few minutes on the Sharpemaker and I could set the weight of the tool on the edge of a piece of paper, and it will cut right through. You just got to love Vic blades

[Grant Lamontagne]

If anyone has the ability to use so called Super Steels, it's Victorinox.  I mean, they just put a 1tb drive into a freakin' keychain for cripes sake, not to mention the Damascus blades they've cranked out.  They have the ability to use a more modern steel, so why don't they?

The answer is simple- a Swiss Army Knife (and the Swissools and Spirits by extension) are designed to be used in the field.  Not at a job site, not at the side of the road, but for an extended, unsupported period of time, and as such, they need to be field serviceable.  To do that they need to avoid these fancy super hard steels and concentrate on something that may need to be sharpened more often, but it fairly easy to do when it is needed.  I personally would rather take a few extra minutes to touch up an edge every couple of days than to be stuck with a fancy super steel in a week that won't cut wet spaghetti.

Hmmm I'm detecting here some kind of MTo members contradiction: while in this thread ST is being clearly being favored, the (inf)famous unofficial best tool poll puts the charge family on advantage, and note that majority of points taken here are regardless of taking in consideration the charge al or other variant, like the tti.

One also has to consider the relative unfairness of this thread- of course with all due respect to Turnsouth for starting it.  The rules are any variety of SwissTool, while only limiting the Charge options to one.  My guess this is because he has all three SwissTools and only owns one Charge, which, if one wanted to delve into it, would point out a certain amount of his own personal preference for the SwissTool, and possibly the ultimate answer to his quandry. 

The bottom line of course is that you really can't go wrong with either tool, and as much as it hurts to admit it, I'd agree with Chako in saying mix it up from time to time.  It could be fun! 

Def

[maximus0723]

Can you clarify for what uses will you be carrying this tool for?
You said for EDC in your bag (assuming bagpack). But what will be doing most of the time? Will you use it at your work (assuming it involves physical work not like a desk job)? or something else?

How often do you see urself using your tool? Do you put it back in your pocket or your bag after use?
What tools do you use the most from most to least?

[turnsouth]

...
One also has to consider the relative unfairness of this thread- of course with all due respect to Turnsouth for starting it.  The rules are any variety of SwissTool, while only limiting the Charge options to one.  My guess this is because he has all three SwissTools and only owns one Charge, which, if one wanted to delve into it, would point out a certain amount of his own personal preference for the SwissTool, and possibly the ultimate answer to his quandry. 
...

Def

Somewhat guilty on my part, but I only have two of the SwissTools, don't own an X (yet). And while it is true that I only own a Charge AL, this is entirely by design. I really have no use for the TTi or ALX. Not that they are not good tools, but for other than collecting purposes I have no want at all for cap crimping pliers (not to mention that the demolition industry has standardized around the military EOD style of blasting cap, making the antiquated ones on the Leatherman tools superfluous)

The unfairness of the thread comes entirely from the desire to carry a tool with at least an outside opening blade to negate the necessity of also carrying a folder. I wear a Wave 9 to 10 hours a day during the week, and I also carry one in my man-bag otherwise. My goal here is to replace the man-bag Wave with something more attractive since it will generally be used whilst among the public.

But this desire can also raise other questions, like "Why not consider other tools, specifically the Spirit?". The simple answer is, if I'm going to carry a Vic, I want Vic scissors. As far as any other outside blade tools, nothing else has ever lit my fancy.

[turnsouth]

Good questions

Can you clarify for what uses will you be carrying this tool for?

Everyday tasks when I'm out and about

You said for EDC in your bag (assuming bagpack). But what will be doing most of the time? Will you use it at your work (assuming it involves physical work not like a desk job)? or something else?

The bag will be either a Maxpedition Neatfreak or Hazard 4 Tonto. I won't be wearing it at work per se, but I will be using it while working at the market on Saturdays in the summer, and other part time jobs I pick up (restaurant work mostly) where I would not have access to my regular work bag. Other than that it will be mostly used during travel, and going to the city.

How often do you see urself using your tool? Do you put it back in your pocket or your bag after use?

No set amount of use planed, I'll be using it as much as necessary, whenever it's needed. And when it is not in use it will be back in my bag.

What tools do you use the most from most to least?

Hard question really, since I will generally not be heading to a specific job with it, the tool use will vary quite a bit I imagine. But I would say the knife the most, with the can opener the least. But then again that could change. I mean I could pick up a little kitchen work and find out that the can opener is broken there and spend the day opening cans with my tool. You just never know...

[turnsouth]

I personally would rather take a few extra minutes to touch up an edge every couple of days than to be stuck with a fancy super steel in a week that won't cut wet spaghetti.
Def

Did you happen to see this: Knife Edge Tester Surprised by Vic Steel

[NeitherExtreme]

First, I think they're all good tools. One thing I don't think I saw mentioned was that (I think) the Charge has wider opening pliers. (I'm not looking at them right now, so I could be wrong...) I'm not a Swiss guru, but I think all the ST pliers are rather limited in their opening span. That may not be important, but then again it might be... depends on the situation.

[MTguy]

First, I think they're all good tools. One thing I don't think I saw mentioned was that (I think) the Charge has wider opening pliers. (I'm not looking at them right now, so I could be wrong...) I'm not a Swiss guru, but I think all the ST pliers are rather limited in their opening span. That may not be important, but then again it might be... depends on the situation.

I just checked my tti vs st and the charges open a long ways further.

[MultiMat]

Tough to beat OHO blades & that diamond file 
Swisstools & Spirits can be a PITA to open their tools if the MT gets even mildly dirty. I think they are made with such fine tolerances it does not take much dirt/muck at all before they are tough to open. If the tool is stored in a clean environment it would not be a problem.
If you chuck in a MTO saw 



I think either MT will surve you well 

[turnsouth]

Some comparison pics:

[turnsouth]

Another thing I was thinking about is warranty, from the point of view of time.

Whenever I send something into Leatherman the longest it has ever taken is 10 days, but usually it is only 7.

With Vic, in the States, normal time is 6 to 8 weeks, and longer when they are backed up.

[Syph007]

Another thing I was thinking about is warranty, from the point of view of time.

Whenever I send something into Leatherman the longest it has ever taken is 10 days, but usually it is only 7.

With Vic, in the States, normal time is 6 to 8 weeks, and longer when they are backed up.

I can't compare the warranties for time, as Ive only had leathermans need repair work done on then, never vics.

[Styerman]

Sadly these types of threads can get a bit acrimonious , and can be devisive . All I can say is that we are fortunate to have products from both of these great companies .

Chris

[turnsouth]

Sadly these types of threads can get a bit acrimonious , and can be devisive . All I can say is that we are fortunate to have products from both of these great companies .

Chris

True, and no worries. As per the rules of this thread any acrimony or divisiveness is expected to be expressed in good humor and within the fellowship of the brotherhood of the multitool (FOBOM^©)