Next flashlight purchase advice

[enki_ck]

I have some flashlight money stashed away and I've been looking at two specific flashlights that have been on my wishlist for some time now. The Olight I1 in SS and the Zebralight SC51. I know the Zebralight got upgraded to the SC52 but I like the form factor of the older model more. And it can be had on average for about $40 used. The i3 is about $36 new from most sellers. It has my preferred UI sequence of L_M_H and good mod spacing. I would be using it with AW RCR123 cells, not recommended but a lot of people do it no problem and the CR123 primaries cost crazy money around here. The Zebra has an interesting UI that I always wanted to try out and performs great on my preferred flashlight food, Eneloops.

So which one should I go for? What are your personal experiences with these two?

[Millhouse]

I would go with the Zebralight unless you want the Olight on your keys.

The SC51 offers a lot of light in a small convenient EDC format, with cheap running on Eneloops. The interface sounds complicated, but is very straightforward.

[16VGTIDave]

Having recently acquired one, I'll second the Zebralight. I have nothing against the Olight, it is a great value and would make you happy. But the SC51 will make you giggle with joy. You will be fondling it all the time, and looking for dark to illuminate. You will show it to everyone you can, and they will just look at you with a blank expression of confused boredom as you describe it's features in detail. And despite your warnings, they will shine it in their eyes and blind them selfs. They will hand it back and tell you it is nice, in the hopes of changing the subject. You will be laughing inside and wondering how long they will be seeing spots for as you scan the room for your next target because there has to be someone around here who appreciates a good flashlight like you do therehastobesomeone! Hehehe...

On second thought, maybe you should just get the Olight...

Dave


Sent from my iPad2

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

I'm another ZL fan, and I'll add my support for the SC51.  I currently have five or six of them, and have an SC52 with a neutral or HCRI emitter on my wish list.

If you don't mind a little extra bulk, and a little bit more cost, you might consider the SC80 instead.  Also available with either a neutral or HCRI emitter, and it has the advantage of being able to use either AA's OR 123's, including RCR's.  Several people on CPF have reported successfully using AW 17500's in them as well, which will not only give you the output boost from the higher voltage cell, but increase the run time over a 14500 or 16340 as well. 

[Landrew]

Chances are, waiting will get you a more powerful light. I don't know what the limits are, as I just bought a 172 lumen Maglite XL200 which runs on 3 AAA cells. I've seen 500 lumen or more flashlights out there, but I'm not sure the power source.  The efficiency and the brightness still seems to be going up.

[nuphoria]

ZL

[ICanFixThat]

ZL

+1, If you have not tried one yet I think it's time.  With the SC52 now shipping, it's a good time to get a nice SC51 at a good price. If you don't like it you should be able to sell it and get your money back or close to it.

If it was going to be an EDC though my biggest reason to get an SC52 over the SC51 would be the switch. With the SC51 I'm sure you would have to give the tailcap a 1/32-1/16 turn to lock it out.  I think the SC52 might be fine with no lockout.  I carried many, sometimes for a month without accidental activation... but then...  Of course this only applies if it will be in your pocket, in a holster there may be no issue.

The lockout is not bad, I do it everyday on my SC60w, but I'm getting lazy in my old age and would prefer not to have to lock it out.

[tattoosteve99]

Hmm aw cells???  That's a little tricky. I would be afraid to use those. Just my opinion. The reason being is that the aw cells have a lower internal resistance and therefore, basically pushes the driver harder. If you did blow the driver...well . I'd go with a zebra light myself, but would at least use a protected cell

[mvyrmnd]

Hmm aw cells???  That's a little tricky. I would be afraid to use those. Just my opinion. The reason being is that the aw cells have a lower internal resistance and therefore, basically pushes the driver harder. If you did blow the driver...well . I'd go with a zebra light myself, but would at least use a protected cell

That's not the case at all.

The lower IR is a great thing, as it reduces the overall resistance of the input circuit, offering better runtimes.

The batteries don't "push" the driver, the driver "sucks" from the battery.

You can run an IMR cell in one of these, which has a tiny fraction of the IR of a LiCo cell, and the light won't blow up.

[16VGTIDave]

The batteries don't "push" the driver, the driver "sucks" from the battery.

That is not the case at all. The battery has the potential, not the driver circuit. And to prove this, what do you charge? Your driver circuit or your battery... Do we have an understanding? Are we in agreement?

A particular driver circuit may allow for greater peak wattage to be released from the battery, but it can't take what isn't there. And we really need to take seriously the potential for damaging batteries by exceeding their designed specifications. I've had multi-cell Ni-Cad batteries run away on me and it wasn't fun. I hope I never have to deal with a runaway Li-ion celled battery.

Dave




Sent from my iPad2

[Landrew]

The batteries don't "push" the driver, the driver "sucks" from the battery.

That is not the case at all. The battery has the potential, not the driver circuit. And to prove this, what do you charge? Your driver circuit or your battery... Do we have an understanding? Are we in agreement?

A particular driver circuit may allow for greater peak wattage to be released from the battery, but it can't take what isn't there. And we really need to take seriously the potential for damaging batteries by exceeding their designed specifications. I've had multi-cell Ni-Cad batteries run away on me and it wasn't fun. I hope I never have to deal with a runaway Li-ion celled battery.

Dave




Sent from my iPad2

This sparked my interest (no pun intended) about LED voltages.  Do single-cell LED flashlights use a 1.5 V LED, or is the voltage boosted to around 5V?

[dks]

A lot will depend on how the driver - torch was designed.
Withour boring people:
If in the design an assumption was made that there will be a certain internal resistance in the battery too and the battery now has a much lower resistance then the driver will need to be able to control the extra pd that is now not utilised across the battery. (in series circuits the pd is divided according to the resistance so as to maintain the same current everywhere).

A good driver will be able to do that (by utilising a variable "resistance") and maintain an optimum current, regulate the torch. A bad one, or one not designed with imrs in mind, will end up, at least at the beginning, supplying a high current to the whole system, potentially damaging it. I do not expect any damage to the battery though, as there should be enough resistance to stop the current from reaching a level high enough to damage it.

LEDs will run at various voltages depending on the led, the battery used etc.

For example some torches can take both 1.5 and 4.2 Volt batteries, with similar outputs. Thus a boost will be needed for the 1.5V and maybe a reduction for the 4.2V. (Tank007 E09, Sipik68, Trustfire F25...)

I am sure an expert will tell you more soon   

[mvyrmnd]

The batteries don't "push" the driver, the driver "sucks" from the battery.

That is not the case at all. The battery has the potential, not the driver circuit. And to prove this, what do you charge? Your driver circuit or your battery... Do we have an understanding? Are we in agreement?

Derp.

That horrifying mistake aside - I've NEVER in years of mucking about with dozens of flashlights, commercial and custom (and the odd home-made) had a driver blow by using an IMR. The incremental IR reduction in a modern LiCo would pose no danger.

[mvyrmnd]

The batteries don't "push" the driver, the driver "sucks" from the battery.

That is not the case at all. The battery has the potential, not the driver circuit. And to prove this, what do you charge? Your driver circuit or your battery... Do we have an understanding? Are we in agreement?

A particular driver circuit may allow for greater peak wattage to be released from the battery, but it can't take what isn't there. And we really need to take seriously the potential for damaging batteries by exceeding their designed specifications. I've had multi-cell Ni-Cad batteries run away on me and it wasn't fun. I hope I never have to deal with a runaway Li-ion celled battery.

Dave




Sent from my iPad2

This sparked my interest (no pun intended) about LED voltages.  Do single-cell LED flashlights use a 1.5 V LED, or is the voltage boosted to around 5V?

Most CREE emitters have a Vf of ~3-3.5 , depending on what current you are pushing through it.

If you have a Li-Ion input, then the driver is a "Buck" ie. it's bucking the voltage down to the needed output.

If it has a Alkaline/NiMH input, then it'll be a "Boost" driver ie. it's boosting the voltage up to the needed output.

You can also have a "Buck/Boost" driver than can do both.

The Forward Voltage - Vf of a LED is different depending on how hard it's being driven. The output side of the driver is what's called "current controlled" ie it outputs a steady current, at whatever voltage is needed to achieve it.

The thing to remember is "watts". The watts will be the same, whatever the voltage.

If you have an XM-L, being driven at 3A, it'll have a Vf of maybe 3.5V. (Check the spec sheet - I'm truly guessing here, but the numbers apply for my example). That means the LED is consuming 10.5W.

If you were running from a single eneloop, with a nominal voltage of 1.2V, then in order to supply 10.5W, it would need to supply 8.75A. Clearly this is not good. To supply the 10.5W from a 18650, it would only have to supply 2.8A, which is perfectly safe.

[enki_ck]

Very interesting info guys. Keep it coming. 

Also, I sent PP for a Zebralight SC51 this morning. It's has some scuff marks on the body but it's the inside beuty that counts, right? Damn peer pressure. If I don't like it it's all your fault. 

[Landrew]

Very interesting info guys. Keep it coming. 

Also, I sent PP for a Zebralight SC51 this morning. It's has some scuff marks on the body but it's the inside beuty that counts, right? Damn peer pressure. If I don't like it it's all your fault. 

Not for me thanks; too big for the Leatherman side pouch, and too small not to lose it on my treks. I'll stick with my Maglite XL200.

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

I just got chastised over at CPF for admitting that I don't check the voltage of my protected AW cells after I take them out of the charger.  Heck, I don't even own a multimeter...   

But, that's the point of protected cells.  Sure, even a protected cell has a chance of failing on you, but I figure it's a pretty astronomically low chance.  I still take reasonable precautions with my cells; for my few lights that use multiple cells I keep those cells paired and matched in their rated mah capacity, always charge and use them together, and for all my cells I never let them sit longer on the charger than I have to, and so on.  In two years of using AW's I've never had one so much as get warm on me.  Heck, one of my old Jetbeams smooshed the top of one of my AW P2600 18650 flat-tops on me, but it hasn't compromised the safety or function of the cell at all.  I just put a magnet on the positive terminal to make contact and it still works as well as the day it arrived in the mail.   

Millions of people use devices with li-ion cells in them every single day, and I've never seen anyone burst into flames or get their head blown off because of a cell failure.  In fact, the ONLY place I've ever heard (read) horror stories about li-ions going all IED is on CPF, and even then, it's always with cheap unprotected cells, and not the high end quality protected ones.  Lots of people complain that AW's are overpriced, but I beg to differ.  My experience with them so far has shown me that paying the extra for the highest quality protected cells is most certainly a worthwhile investment.

[mvyrmnd]

I just got chastised over at CPF for admitting that I don't check the voltage of my protected AW cells after I take them out of the charger.

Must just be you, mate. I more or less said the same thing, and no one called me on it

I always check the cells when they're new, to establish a pattern of behavior, but once I trust them, I only check them once in a blue moon.

[dks]

Irrespective of that, get a cheap multimeter.
Unless you are really interested in measuring currents over 1A even the cheap ones from eBay are good and FUN   

I check by 18650 out of habit but I agree the stories on CPF and BLF are usually the extremes (overcharging, combining different cells etc).

Only one of my torches uses more than one 18650, normally, anyway. (I think)

[gregozedobe]

I only ever buy lights that use ONE Li-Ion cell, this greatly reduces the chance of catastrophic failure.  Besides, I don't like really big lights anyway,

[Landrew]

I only ever buy lights that use ONE Li-Ion cell, this greatly reduces the chance of catastrophic failure.  Besides, I don't like really big lights anyway,

Why is that, if you don't mind me asking?  I've heard of it happening, but it does seem extremely rare.

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

I only ever buy lights that use ONE Li-Ion cell, this greatly reduces the chance of catastrophic failure.  Besides, I don't like really big lights anyway,

Why is that, if you don't mind me asking?  I've heard of it happening, but it does seem extremely rare.

It's because using two cells can lead to charge imbalances between the cells, causing one cell to be pushed past its safety zone for depletion or draw, which can lead to a failure. 

That's why I always use matched cells in my lights that use two cells.  I match them in rated mah to minimize the chance of an imbalance, and charge them together, and rotate them in the bays of my charger, so I know that differences in the charging circuit between the two bays aren't creating an imbalance in their charge.

But, I only have two lights that use more than one li-ion cell, and that's primarily because they're lights I use in situations where I need the extended run time.  In general, I stick with one cell lights simply because they're more convenient to carry and use.  The added safety of not having to deal with a charge imbalance is nice, but is minor and not a major reason for me in my preference for single celled lights.

[dks]

I also think that people worry that if one cell gets a lower voltage than the one it is connected to, because they have different capacities and drain at different rates, then the charge may be pushed in that cell the wrong way round and cause problems.

[nuphoria]

It's the multi-cell issue I have read about too - not heard anything about single cell lights blowing up!

Did see a pic of a guy who had his hand badly burnt up when a multi-cell light went bad

[enki_ck]

I may have ordered this one too. Couldn't resist. A 60mm/20mm CR123/RCR123 flashlight with a 2/30/100% output. Sounded too interesting.


I'll report back when it arrives.


 

[Landrew]

Personally, I think Lithium Ion batteries are a mismatch with an LED flashlight.  They tend to discharge themselves over time (some, not all) as well as loss of capacity (10-20% per year in some cases).  Most LED flashlights have run-times of over several hours, which is sufficient for most applications. 

There is also a minor but significant fire risk, using Lithium cells, especially in harsh environments.

An alkaline cell seems much more suitable, as they tend to hold their power over longer periods of time, and have a longer shelf life, up to 10 years in some cases.  Also, an alkaline cell is much more available when you need one, unlike a way to charge a rechargeable light when you really need it.

Re-edit: I meant to refer only to rechargeable Lithium Ion, batteries, not the Lithium cells which substitute for alkaline cells.  I based my opinions on personal experience and research.

[enki_ck]

Sorry, but most of what you just said isn't true. More the opposite. And you're mixing up Lithium primaries and Lithium rechargeables. As a rule Lithium primaries are SAFER than any alkaline for flashlight use. They have a much longer shelf life, +15 years, and they don't leak. As for Lithium rechargeables, there's no danger in using them in single battery flashlights, the dangers you speak of are only if you use mismatched (maybe even unprotected) Lithium rechargeables with different power levels, when instaid of powering the flashlight, the the stronger battery starts charging the weaker and BOOM. And those cases are due to user error, not the batteries themselves. As for loss of capacity, good quality protected rechargeables like the AW ones have a very low self discharge rate, almost negligible.

[enki_ck]

Here's a table from a 6 month test of rechargeable Lithium ions. It's from the 3 month stage. And quality RCR123A only lost less than 0,5% or their initial charge in 3 months.

[dks]

Also alkalines tend to leak when left for a long time. They are ok if they will be used quickly but not designed to be left for years in a device.(nicknamed alkaleaks..) 
Eneloops are popular because they keep their charge for long, similar to rechergeable LiIons,  do not leak and can provide quite high currents, which are usefull in powerfull LED torches.
Regular NiMh batteries lose their charge quickly; may be usefull after a month, tops.
LiIon primaries last for years, have minimal loss of charge and do not leak, but they are expensive.

By the way, most phones, laptops etc use rechargeable LiIons.

I advice people interested in batteries to have a read through the batteryuniversity site. It is probably the best resource for information on batteries on the internet.
Also BLF and CPF have lots of information.

[nuphoria]

Yes, I was going to suggest that site dks

Alkalines are dirty little beasts