Exotic steels...why?

[kirk13]

Ok,so I'm causing trouble again

I have a pair of Spyderco Ladybugs that no one seems to be interested in buying or trading for. To buy these keyring knives new is expensive,broadly parallel to a SwissChamp or a Rebar. As best as I can figure,this is down to the VG10 blades . I've tried one at work and it cuts no better than a cheap Rough Rider with a generic 440 steel.

So...what's with the exotics?

Answers on the back of a post card to the usual address 

[jekostas]

There's rarely a reason beyond "because it's cool".  Even edge case steels like H-1 could be substituted with other things if you follow very basic knife maintenance rules.

[dmanuel]

Take for example D2 vs 440. Both are a solid choice and both are classic knife steel. However, I will always take the D2. It takes longer to sharpen but it hold the edge longer and gets sharper. It all depends on personal preference, I'm just not a big 440 fan. It's great, but there are better pieces of steel out there. If you aren't going to abuse your knives day in and day out then yeah, probably no need for anything besides 440. My knives however get used on everything from opening the mail to gutting and quartering feral hogs.

One example that springs to mind is a day that we actually trapped 35 hogs. Two of us went to work cleaning, a buddy with his trusty Buck 110 (440) and me with my D2 customs. I stopped to sharpen once, he had to resharpen his blade after ever third pig. Consequently I got my half of them done far before he did.

[nate j]

As best as I can figure,this is down to the VG10 blades . I've tried one at work and it cuts no better than a cheap Rough Rider with a generic 440 steel.

So...what's with the exotics?

While the coolness factor should not be underestimated, I think where exotic steels can legitimately shine is in certain specialty or hard use applications.  As you've observed, one doesn't generally see much of a difference when comparing sharp knives in reasonably good condition.  However, if you expose a 440 blade and a H-1 blade to sea water for a week, you will likely begin to see the benefit of the H-1; as in the previous poster's example, if you have to clean 10+ hogs in a row, you may begin to appreciate a harder/more wear resistant steel; etc.

[comis]

In addition to Nate's reply, I think people are willing to pay extra for so-called 'super steel' is because with its better edge retention properties, there is also room to experiment with geometry/grind to yield a better cutting/chopping/slicing performance. 

For example, if you are sharpening the knife at a popular 50-60 deg inclusive, some super steel might be able to hold an edge reasonably well(under normal use) at 30-40 deg inclusive.

[dmanuel]

So...what's with the exotics?

Wanna give it a good, quick test? Go get a load of cardboard and start slicing it up with both knives. If you want you could even make a slice in the cardboard and then on a piece of paper. That will give you a pretty good idea of the difference in the steel.

One thing that 440 does have that some people like is the added Chromium. It really helps it resist stains, but at higher hardness levels it also increases the brittleness of the blade.

The biggest issue that I have with 440 though is the fact that there are tons of different manufacturers of it. The good, high quality stuff performs admirably, while the cheap stuff (used quite often) will not be able to hold or take a solid edge. Add in the fact that anyone can improperly heat treat it and it simply doubles that issue.

For example, if you are sharpening the knife at a popular 50-60 deg inclusive, some super steel might be able to hold an edge reasonably well(under normal use) at 30-40 deg inclusive.

This. I love chisel grinds, you can get a super sharp edge with them. However, they also wear super fast because of how sharp they are. If you use a good tool steel, or something that is comparable, you will have a blade that becomes super sharp while also mitigating the inherent problems with the grind.

[kkokkolis]

Consumerism? Customers' manipulation? Building of artificial needs? Novelty seeking behavior exploitation into a boring enviroment where primodial survival insticts remain unsatisfied? Market augmented technolust insticts of the Homo Toolfactorem? Satisfaction oversaturation? Distorted reward dependence? Obsessive sensation seeking? All of the above?

[jekostas]

Wanna give it a good, quick test? Go get a load of cardboard and start slicing it up with both knives.

This is an utterly artificial test, though.  99% of people will never spend their days and nights carving up cardboard box after cardboard box, and those that do would find much more gains to be found in proper edge geometry than the steel used.

[dmanuel]

Wanna give it a good, quick test? Go get a load of cardboard and start slicing it up with both knives.

This is an utterly artificial test, though.  99% of people will never spend their days and nights carving up cardboard box after cardboard box, and those that do would find much more gains to be found in proper edge geometry than the steel used.

Of course it's an artificial test, most people don't spend much time cleaning animals anymore or living via their blades. Is it overkill to have the absolute best steel? Sure, because 75% of my time I'm not cleaning large amounts of animals. However, when I do I prefer to have a higher quality steel blade.

All other things equal (geometry, maintenance, cutting material), the D2 (because I used it in my previous example) steel will almost always come out on top, as will many many other types of steel. Again, do I/we need the best possible steel for any situation? No, probably not but that isn't a logical excuse to discount other steels that will outperform 440.

Edit: The reason I suggest cardboard is because it is cheap, easy to get, and will dull a blade quickly so that you won't have to wait days to notice the difference.

[kirk13]

@nate j: Funny enough mate,I actually had the Spydie Salt range in mind when I started the thread.

@dmanuel:  Nice one mate,I have to say I can't imagine having to gut that many pigs,but yeah,that kind of reasoning makes an awful lot of sense. As to cardboard, that's something I have a close relationship with ,and why I have a Vic Sharpener in my bag . I did try the Ladybug,but regardless of the quality of the steel, the shape of the knife itself made it a fail

@kkokkolis...mate,people think I'm a cynic  

Thank you everyone so far,I'm keen to hear more opinions

[Raukodur]

From all the reading I have done around this subject I have come to the conclusion that much more important than the steel for the vast majority of people is its treatment, and blade geometry. Which means that for ~95% (or probably more) of consumers, the blade steel itself makes no difference.

[ducttapetech]

Not just have to clean animals. Simple things, like when hay gets wrapped around a roller of a haybine. Just cutting four or five big pieces of rope. Half a truck load of cardboard, plastic or rubber line. This is where a higher steel helps. I love my Ct41, but all of thing I just mentioned kills the edge fast and some of the jobs it cant even finish. And no matter what angle I sharpen it, it dulls out. 440 is a good steel for small stuff or light and medium use though out the day. 
sent from Nate's mobile

[WhichDawg]

they probably had this "discussion" centuries before: "iron is iron, we don't need that expensive, magical, uppity steel it's the same thing iron is iron" lol 

[Syph007]

As an upgrade from carbon steels that people loved (still love) to have that similar edge retention ability but in a stainless blade.  Other than that, I think people love buying knives and trying out new steels. 

Once you own more than a couple SAKs, you probably have more than you NEED.  But collecting tools and knives is not about NEED thats for sure.

[ToolJoe]

 All I have to say is two words...utility knife!

[kirk13]

 All I have to say is two words...utility knife!

Like a Stanley?

[Steinar]

Just take a look at a micrograph of the steel, that will answer a lot of your question. (All of the following given proper heat treatment yaddayaddayadda for the steels in question.) VG-10 will hold an edge (very much) longer than DIN 1.4110 (SAK steel), DIN 1.4110 will have higher impact resistance than VG-10 (not really important for pocket knives, I would assume), VG-10 can't be sharpened to an as acute edge without micro chipping, on the other hand DIN 1.4110 is vulnerable to edge rolling, etc. In general, the most popular high end steels in the US market are high alloy, high carbide steels which favor extreme abrasive resistance while not being as though as something liker ANSI 1075 or 12C27. Most of the price difference is the general marketing value, some of it is higher price of the alloy itself, and some of it is that some of the high tech steels are a smurf to heat treat. Trust me, it is not the knife industry which has developed these steels, it's all the different industries needing knives and tools, and they look at the bottom line, not cool names. An oil company looks at how long the drill lasts, that's it. This leads to the steels being actually different, but also some of the popular knife steels having expensive properties which really aren't useful as knives. (E.g. using high-speed class steels for knives... why oh why...)

TL;DR: Different steels are different. Some things cost more.

[Roc]

As an upgrade from carbon steels that people loved (still love) to have that similar edge retention ability but in a stainless blade.  Other than that, I think people love buying knives and trying out new steels. 

Once you own more than a couple SAKs, you probably have more than you NEED.  But collecting tools and knives is not about NEED thats for sure.

This.

[derekmac]

Exotic women...why?

Some people just like something a little more exciting!  

Myself, it really doesn't matter.  I like the added edge retention of the "better" metals, but I also like how easy it is to sharpen the "normal" ones as well.  If your out in the field, maybe you'd prefer to have something a little softer that won't chip, and only takes a few swipes on a stone to sharpen.  Or, maybe you're thinking that you want something that you "shouldn't" have to sharpen, so you don't have to stop working, you can keep on going.

[Philthy]

One thing that I find funny about exotic steels is that some people absolutely want the newest (perhaps best) steel and act like the others are terrible. 

Not that long ago 154cm was an awesome steel, then S30V, now it's like S35VN or ZDP-189 or Elmax.

I'm more than happy to stick with 154cm or VG-10 they have worked well for me over the years.

[comis]

To me, using 'exotic' metal(or more accurately, paying for expensive steel) for blade is my attempt to tilt the balance between responsible/knowledgeable use vs  emergency/occational abuse.

I know enough that using the tip of blade to pry or as an awl is a no-no, or batoning may roll or chip the edge, or dropping knife on ground tip down might bent/break the tip; but it is good to know that I do have the option to do so under stressful or emergency situation.

At the end of the day, I think what's more important is not whether the steel is 'exotic' or 'expensive', but whether the price is reasonable vs performance.  If the budget allows and the exotic steel does offer better performance where I want it, I won't mind paying a premium for it.  Of course, if it is for collection purposes, that's entirely a different realm. 

[dks]

I mainly play around with traditional knives where 440C and D2 are the common exotics. 

Additionally you tend to see people buying the newer steels and then realising that they can not sharpen them with their old sharpeners.

Some steels are better suited to special tasks (e.g. for chopping wood you need a "forgiving" steel) so there is a reason for their selection. Most of the times it has to do with having something newer and hopefully better.

The main issue seems to be the price as knives with newer steels seem to cost more; and a lot more than the cost of the new steel justifies.

If I had the choice of a knife with 440A steel and the same knife with S30V (an older exotic) at the same price I would take the S30V one.

Google brings this summary up:
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

[Raukodur]

One factor I think a lot of people overlook, which from what I understand is quite important in that it makes a significant difference in how easy your cutting tasks are, is the width of the blade in total.

So not only the angle of the edge, but the entire blade. Since if you are trying to cut through something, while it may be the edge that does the cutting, friction of the material on the edges of the knife blade will increase the force you need to apply. So it is possible to compensate for a duller blade by it being thinner, in comparison to a sharper blade, which is fatter. And this links back to soft steels vs hard steels.

[ToolJoe]

 All I have to say is two words...utility knife!

Like a Stanley?

I believe so. If my understanding is correct, are lockable blades illegal in the UK?

[Raukodur]

 All I have to say is two words...utility knife!

One of the reasons why utility blades and scalpels are so good at cutting is because of their very thin profile. They are not made of super steels, but even when not as sharp as they originally are, they will still feel easier to cut with than a sharper but thicker blade, because you have less friction on the sides of the blade with what you are cutting through.

[Cupboard]

 All I have to say is two words...utility knife!

Like a Stanley?

I believe so. If my understanding is correct, are lockable blades illegal in the UK?

Yes and no. If you are stopped by a policeman and you have a knife that is over 3" or is locking then you have to be able to justify having it. If you're a chef on the way to work and you're carrying chefs' knives, that's fine. If you're a farmer and you're carrying a locking folder that you're going to be using at work, that's fine. If you're a randomer in the street, that's not. At the same time, you can carry a sub 3" slipjoint without "reason", but the moment you threaten someone with it you're breaking the law. Same with a limp carrot. If you're going around threatening someone with a limp carrot and a lettuce leaf then you're in violation of the Offensive Weapons act.

 All I have to say is two words...utility knife!

One of the reasons why utility blades and scalpels are so good at cutting is because of their very thin profile. They are not made of super steels, but even when not as sharp as they originally are, they will still feel easier to cut with than a sharper but thicker blade, because you have less friction on the sides of the blade with what you are cutting through.

Aren't utility blades high carbon non stainless steel and therefore pretty hard?

[ducttapetech]

I believe so.

[dks]

All my utility knives have SS blades.
I do not recall seeing any carbon ones, in regular shops.

[ducttapetech]

All my utility knives have SS blades.
I do not recall seeing any carbon ones, in regular shops.

I the one I ever go seem to be high carbon and rust like crazy.

sent from Nate's mobile

[dks]

Here is a recent thread on utility knives, by the way: 

http://forum.multitool.org/edged-tools/favourite-utility-knife/msg828981/#msg828981