Knife enthusiasts, Steel composition, Heat treating.

[Aloha]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to have a real conversation regarding what makes knife good.

I have been doing a little research on the Ontario Pilots knife ( called a few things ) and on paper it spec's out to be a great knife.

The steel, the decent blade length, the handle ( minus the guard ) feel, the blade shape, and the ergos would make this knife a winner. 

I have read some not so good reviews which state, "hard to sharpen", "blade shape", "materials", all being hit against this knife. 

I've read many contradicting accounts from this exact blade steel and blade length and shape.  I don't know it my lack of knowledge limits me from knowing the tempering by looking at a knife so what gives?

I also read that most are disappointed with the saw back.  The saw back feature as I understand is meant for specific materials and I have not read that this feature under performs on those. 

Some have complained that the guard out he box is rattly which on mine is.  Some complain that the blade was very dull out of box and mine is dull but mine is also from 94 so I cannot confirm. Some complain about the leather discs that make up the handle getting loose.  Mine are all firmly in place and while weathered they look great to me.  Some complain the knife has broke at the connection point of the handle.  While I have not saw any picture to document that I'll take their word.

Am I fundamentally missing something or is this knife really a sleeper high value blade that most pass off as not good as compared to the KaBar.  Heck everyone I see post about 1095 and Bowie shape seems to foam at the mouth. 

Enlighten me if you will.     


                     

[AimlessWanderer]

 

I'm not sure what to say ... a lot is purely subjective and revolves around personal taste. Personally I've not been bothered about getting one of these knives, but other folks love them.

1095 is a high carbon steel, not stainless, so it's going to me more susceptible to rust. For a lot of uses/scenarios, that mean's it's ruled out for me personally. For other people in other scenarios - no problem. Leather washer handles are going to absorb a lot of dirt and grime, I have no need for the saw back as I'm unlikely to ever be carrying this should I need to extract myself from an aircraft fuselage. Blade is bigger than what I want for cutting stuff, but too light for what I want for hacking at stuff. It doesn't really promise me anything I particularly want. I already have better choices for a food knife, gardening knife, boating knife, DIY knife, wood processing knife ..... I don't really do anything that the knife would be good for (stabbing enemies and cutting my way out of downed aircraft)

Having never owned one, I can't comment of the general quality of them either, but I'd imagine these are rather "agricultural" in comparison with most modern fixed blades .... it'll do the job, but won't have much finesse about it, and will need a comparatively high level of maintainance. It all comes down to what YOU want from a knife as to whether this meets your requirements

[Breezy12]

I'm not sure what to say ... a lot is purely subjective and revolves around personal taste. Personally I've not been bothered about getting one of these knives, but other folks love them.

I think this sums it up pretty well.

I've never owned or used the Ontario Pilots knife, but I have a couple ESEE fixed blades made from 1095 steel that I absolutely love. 50ft is right about the steel being more susceptible to rust, but ESEE puts a coating on their blades which helps prevent rust (along with proper care for the knife, of course). I love the way the steel takes an edge and can be abused with hard use. The edge retention isn't great, but that's what my MT and/or backup knife are for.

[Aloha]

I camp and day hike so a Mora for all intent and purposes serves me very well.  I have always heard the best knife is the one you carry so when I camp or hike I usually have a Mora and more recently my Anza (Tracker) on me. 

Perception, yes enough said. 

I guess my take was while there are several great reviews of this knife the ones that stood out are the complaints regarding materials.  On one hand 1095 is great but not on this knife.  Bowie or clip point blade great but not on this knife.  I understand in many cases execution is everything but the lack of consistency is what confused me. 

I'm at a point where I am really excited to try things.  I almost drawn to the items others don't care for more than whats generally loved. 

I guess it comes down to what we like is what we like.  Seems also with the vast array of specialized tools we have at our disposal we veer towards task specific items in our tools boxes as well.  Makes perfect sense to me, makes total sense actually.

 

[Syph007]

Personal taste has alot to do with it.  I have had 1095 blades and I dont like them.  Now I admit I dont take care of the blades well with oiling and cleaning so they rusted pretty easy.  Had an ESEE 4, once it rusted it wasnt for me so I sold it.  So personally for me it must be a stainless blade to be considered.  Im into Fällkniven blades for that reason mostly.  I have some stainless moras that are just fine too, oh that those SAK things...  

You can beat on a 1095 blade ALOT though very durable overall, and rust isnt a huge issue if you are aware of it.  Its just not for me.

[Aloha]

Personal taste has alot to do with it.  I have had 1095 blades and I dont like them.  Now I admit I dont take care of the blades well with oiling and cleaning so they rusted pretty easy.  Had an ESEE 4, once it rusted it wasnt for me so I sold it.  So personally for me it must be a stainless blade to be considered.  Im into Fällkniven blades for that reason mostly.  I have some stainless moras that are just fine too, oh that those SAK things...  

You can beat on a 1095 blade ALOT though very durable overall, and rust isnt a huge issue if you are aware of it.  Its just not for me.

Those are some gorgeous knives.   I totally understand what you are saying and agree for many having to maintain a working blade to avoid rust is a deal breaker. 

Thanks for the Esse mention as I read so much awesomeness about the blade steel 1095 and then total opposite on Pilot knife.  Its not limited tho as we all know to just this knife, the inconsistencies are rampant.  I wont even touch the China made knives topic. 

If a particular knife isn't for whomever then so be it there are plenty of knives and I certainly don't make a dime off any. 

How does one know the tempering of 1095 is less than vs other knives?  This seemed to be in question.  Can someone look at the blade? I not a fan either way of the pilot knife as I've not tested nor used the one I have.  I just read some rather confusing inconsistencies.   

[AimlessWanderer]

OK, let me see if this helps a little more ...

If you're reading what all the knife nuts write on all those crazy forums  they'll no doubt say that ESSE knives are all great and this knife is bad, even though it's the same material. Why? The Ontario design is a ye olde design, much like many of the ye olde Sheffield knife patterns. The reason why it's so "awful" is that it won't have been hardened up as much. If you get a Sheffield made military knife (and I'm assuming other military knives too), the chances are that the knife blade has only been hardened up to say 52HRc (ish) as opposed to 58-62HRc as made by (and for) other people.

The knife nuts generally want the hardest knife for the best edge retention, and they'll sharpen them up on their Spyderco Sharpkmakers till they're capable of whittling electrons off atoms and do some very controlled cutting chores with them. These military knives are designed and made for people who are/were not knife nuts, will abuse the hell out of the knife blades, and might have to rely on a nearby rock to put an edge back on them afterwards. A knife with a lower hardness, that is more ductile and will deform rather than break, and can be sharpened on a sheeps arse crack is what is needed in a high abuse setting.

The British MOD survival knife is exactly the same. Yes the knife could be better finished, yes it is of a lower hardness than the steel is capable of, but it meets the basic military requirement of cheap, easily modified, resistant to the most abusive of usage, and yet still reliable. The "sharpened prybar" type knives tend to be carbon steel as they are more impact resistant than stainless steels .... that's why all the best axes are still made in carbon steels. I have a lovely stag handled Muela bowie knife, but there's no way I'd subject it to the same torture I'd subject my DePlessis Warthog, Chris Caine Tool or MOD knife to.

Hopefully this explains the perception a little more. Many people say that because it's comparatively soft, then it's crap. Actually the reverse is true when you factor in the abuse it's designed to withstand. A modern high spec folder would potentially chip, crack, snap and become a very expensive jigsaw puzzle when these mil-spec knives would just be bent, bruised and still functional.

Again ... it all comes down to what YOU want from a knife 

[Breezy12]

Hopefully this explains the perception a little more. Many people say that because it's comparatively soft, then it's crap. Actually the reverse is true when you factor in the abuse it's designed to withstand. A modern high spec folder would potentially chip, crack, snap and become a very expensive jigsaw puzzle when these mil-spec knives would just be bent, bruised and still functional.

Again ... it all comes down to what YOU want from a knife 

well said. like you said, I have very different expectations for my fixed blades than I do for folders or MT blades.

and just FYI, ESEE hardens their 1095 steel to 55-57Rc.

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks Breezy 

[Raukodur]

OK, let me see if this helps a little more ...

If you're reading what all the knife nuts write on all those crazy forums  they'll no doubt say that ESSE knives are all great and this knife is bad, even though it's the same material. Why? The Ontario design is a ye olde design, much like many of the ye olde Sheffield knife patterns. The reason why it's so "awful" is that it won't have been hardened up as much. If you get a Sheffield made military knife (and I'm assuming other military knives too), the chances are that the knife blade has only been hardened up to say 52HRc (ish) as opposed to 58-62HRc as made by (and for) other people.

The knife nuts generally want the hardest knife for the best edge retention, and they'll sharpen them up on their Spyderco Sharpkmakers till they're capable of whittling electrons off atoms and do some very controlled cutting chores with them. These military knives are designed and made for people who are/were not knife nuts, will abuse the hell out of the knife blades, and might have to rely on a nearby rock to put an edge back on them afterwards. A knife with a lower hardness, that is more ductile and will deform rather than break, and can be sharpened on a sheeps arse crack is what is needed in a high abuse setting.

The British MOD survival knife is exactly the same. Yes the knife could be better finished, yes it is of a lower hardness than the steel is capable of, but it meets the basic military requirement of cheap, easily modified, resistant to the most abusive of usage, and yet still reliable. The "sharpened prybar" type knives tend to be carbon steel as they are more impact resistant than stainless steels .... that's why all the best axes are still made in carbon steels. I have a lovely stag handled Muela bowie knife, but there's no way I'd subject it to the same torture I'd subject my DePlessis Warthog, Chris Caine Tool or MOD knife to.

Hopefully this explains the perception a little more. Many people say that because it's comparatively soft, then it's crap. Actually the reverse is true when you factor in the abuse it's designed to withstand. A modern high spec folder would potentially chip, crack, snap and become a very expensive jigsaw puzzle when these mil-spec knives would just be bent, bruised and still functional.

Again ... it all comes down to what YOU want from a knife 

Sums it up pretty well. There used to be a website where this guy tested knives to destruction, and you could see how some of these 'softer' metals could withstand amazing amounts of abuse without failing.

[AimlessWanderer]

Hopefully this explains the perception a little more. Many people say that because it's comparatively soft, then it's crap. Actually the reverse is true when you factor in the abuse it's designed to withstand. A modern high spec folder would potentially chip, crack, snap and become a very expensive jigsaw puzzle when these mil-spec knives would just be bent, bruised and still functional.

Again ... it all comes down to what YOU want from a knife 

Doh! 

That should be modern high spec KNIFE ... I was refering to fixed blades, don't know why I typed folder 

[Aloha]

Thank you that was most excellent 50ft  . 

I do more or less understand it's just so silly at times.  I honestly rarely see any of those super steel knives do much more than look awesome all sharpened. 

When I first got into the cooking prefession I had little money for knives so I bought some HC cheapies. 

I took some crap but then and now I could keep pace with the best of them.  My knives did need some extra care and sure certain foods reacted with them but they performed beautifully.  I still have a cleaver thats been with me since early 90's and she's seen it all. 

I'm not so much dissuaded from one knife of another due to opinions it's just so inconsistent.  Yes I get the heat treatment is big and the super steels blah blah blah but come on. 

Thanks for that post 50ft it was terrific.   

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Happy to help 

Yeah, try not to get too caught up in all the BS spouted about various knife steels mate. We've tamed the land, sailed the seas, flown through the sky, explored the depths of the oceans, gone into space, split the atom, built enormous dams, skyscrapers and boats big enough to be military airports .... all before these super steels were created  The modern high spec knives are a matter of luring you and your money in. If you want one, get one, but chances are you probably don't need one 

[Noa Isumi]

The modern high spec knives are a matter of luring you and your money in. If you want one, get one, but chances are you probably don't need one 

Exactly right!
I may have just spent half an hour drooling over a randall 15 airman (yes I know it is one of the original air crew knives from '58) but I just cant justify spending 400usd on something that will sit on a shelf while an Ontario air crew is on my gear at 1/10 the price.
The randall is pretty though...

For a higher polished look and stainless steel check out the "marbles jet ranger". Same as Ontario but 1/8 stainless with brass guard and a more polished leather stack instead of 3/16 1095, steel guard and rough leather of the Ontario.
Marbles designed it and the DOD changed a few things and had it made by 5 or so different companies, Ontario and Marbles being the only two left. Ontario uses DOD spec but Marbles went back to original print. Or at least that's the story I was told.

[Aloha]

Happy to help 

Yeah, try not to get too caught up in all the BS spouted about various knife steels mate. We've tamed the land, sailed the seas, flown through the sky, explored the depths of the oceans, gone into space, split the atom, built enormous dams, skyscrapers and boats big enough to be military airports .... all before these super steels were created  The modern high spec knives are a matter of luring you and your money in. If you want one, get one, but chances are you probably don't need one 

Very well put and so very true.  I'm not a steel chasing knife guy in the least.  I have the Charge TTi with S30V blade yet choose to use my Wave.  I dont mind the attention Carbon Steel requires, tho like many I do like a good SS blade.  I have 6 fixed blades now and will pick up a few more to play with.  I have a Anza Tracker, 2 Moras, Ontario Pilots knife, Schrade SCHF16, CRKT Minimalist.  I didn't realize how much I'd like fixed blades.  As you see nothing fancy nor exotic but each is pretty terrific IMO. I'll give the Ontario some chores and a role to play even it's it back up.     


@ Noa

I'll give the Marbles a look.  I'm going to spend some time today and sharpen my Ontario and put this knife into my camping/hiking pack.  I think it will make a good down and dirty knife or a terrific back up to my Anza and Moras. 

I just recently got interested in fixed blades and the super steel talk is loud.  I'm not swayed by the chatter, I know from my usage I get a long with less exotic.
It was just so odd on one hand many rave about 1095 and certain attributes yet on the same hand dismiss many knives.  I realize many are lured and that's great for them, I am mostly looking for hearty knives that can expect to get dirty. 

I'm no survivalist nor hardcore backpacker/camper so the expense wouldn't be justified on knives ranging from XXX-XXXX plus I'm thrifty.   

I appreciate all the feedback.  I love this place       

[Syph007]

Well I think ALL the steel knives are way better than where we started... with flint or bone knives!

Although bone and flint dont rust... 

[ducttapetech]

I love 1095 and high carbon blades in general. I like the way they sharpen. The how long they hold there edge and the they darken up with use. But that's just me. Nothing wrong with SS. My SOG Vulcan is SS and is one of my favorite folders. But if there is an option to get a blade in carbon, that's the one I will pick.
Ofcoarse that is me. May not work for others.

[Aloha]

Well I think ALL the steel knives are way better than where we started... with flint or bone knives!

Although bone and flint dont rust... 

 

[Aloha]

Just to follow up on my Pilots knife. It was very easy to put a wicked edge on this knife.  I dont understand what the fuss is for those who complained ( cyber complaints ) it was difficult  . 

I went with 25 degree both sides for the reason that 20 seemed a bit thin for its intended purpose as a camp knife.  I have other knives that will serve as slicers and food prep so 25 should be a sturdier edge.  I finished it with a quick strop and wow hair shaving sharp.  I didn't polish the edge just refined it a bit.

I'm already digging this knife more, I would like to make a few more adjustments and it should be sorted.  I'll post up pics tomm.