Leatherman knockoffs?

Ifeexpert · **on:** October 18, 2015, 05:25:57 PM

Is there such a thing as a fake LM or knockoff? And if so, how do you know or best way to tell?

in_sympathy · **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2015, 06:45:46 PM

Quote from: Ifeexpert on October 18, 2015, 05:25:57 PM

Is there such a thing as a fake LM or knockoff? And if so, how do you know or best way to tell?

Well I saw something like that a while ago and thought that I just was out of luck with that Surge, but I had my Wave with me as a reference and that Surge was lighter, real pain in the ass to open and use anything, everything was just so maladjusted that I was shocked. Still bits from Bit Kit fit in alright, all the writings on it looked genuine.
Still don't know what to say about it.

------------
Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

detron · **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2015, 07:10:31 PM

I have a knock off Juice XE6 that I wish someone else wanted.
Free to anyone who will pay the shipping

Ifeexpert · **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2015, 07:46:16 PM

You see some weird stuff like on ebay, and just wondering, i def don't want a knockoff. @detron, how do you know it's knockoff?

detron · **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2015, 08:05:39 PM

Quote from: Ifeexpert on October 18, 2015, 07:46:16 PM

You see some weird stuff like on ebay, and just wondering, i def don't want a knockoff. @detron, how do you know it's knockoff?

larger than the real one, softer/weaker metal, and hard to open tools.

gregozedobe · **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2015, 03:27:13 AM

I have quite a few LM knock-offs, none of them are a serious attempt at pretending to be a genuine LM eg no "Leatherman" branding, different model ids (if any), different size, different tool load. I collect them as curiosities, not as tools meant to be used (which is just as well, as the quality and functionality of many of them is rather low).

I'm still looking for a LM mini "copy" if anyone has one that they no longer appreciate

Lynn LeFey · **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:34:31 AM

Yeah, it's not branded as a leatherman, but this tool, 'Mammut' is an old-style Wave knock-off.

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,13475.0.html

I know there was another one, which I don't think was Mammut, because I bought one, out of sick curiosity. It is, literally, the only tool I've thrown away (and not later recovered). I hated it passionately.

sLaughterMed · **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:46:55 PM

Silverline apparently made a passable quality Crunch knockoff a few years ago. I would love to find one, since im not ready to drop the cash for the genuine article.

Lynn LeFey · **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2015, 04:50:49 PM

Yeah, there was a rush on buying those a while back. I seem to recall the UK folks had some crazy good deal on them, and a lot of them got into it. Might bug those guys, see if anyone bought a spare.

JustinCase · **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2015, 03:54:24 AM

SkeleFOOL selling on eBay for $10.00...

WoodMan · **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2015, 05:29:26 AM

Every pliers-based multitool is either a Leatherman or a Leatherman knockoff.

Chako · **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2015, 05:38:31 AM

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,13689.0.html

babola · **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2015, 07:01:47 AM

It's a real shame Dave simply disappeared from the multi-tool forum scene 2 years ago and never came back.

I quite liked his style.

babola · **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2015, 07:03:45 AM

Quote from: JustinCase on October 20, 2015, 03:54:24 AM

SkeleFOOL selling on eBay for $10.00...

I know it's wrong to say so...but I kind of like its quirky design lines, especially that carabiner.

Hmm, I may even pull a trigger on one, what a heck...

gregozedobe · **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2015, 12:52:51 PM

Quote from: WoodMan on October 20, 2015, 05:29:26 AM

Every pliers-based multitool is either a Leatherman or a Leatherman knockoff.

You might find this an interesting read:

http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-index.php?page=Before+there+was+Leatherman

Quote

Despite the common misperception, multi-purpose knives and tools had been around long before Tim Leatherman's PST patent in 1983, with some examples predating this by over 100 years. The earliest tools were crude, yet exquisitely made. Some were built and sold by the tens of thousands, others were virtually hand built on a custom order basis. As manufacturing technology improved, so did the sophistication of these pre-Leatherman devices. By the 1950's they had become every bit as capable as some of the "name-brand" multitools that were introduced in the 1990's. Today these tools are seldom encountered, tucked away as they are in old farm houses or garages or antique stores.

Ifeexpert · **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2015, 06:27:46 PM

Quote from: JustinCase on October 20, 2015, 03:54:24 AM

SkeleFOOL selling on eBay for $10.00...

That's what I'm talking about

Quote from: gregozedobe on October 20, 2015, 12:52:51 PM

Quote from: WoodMan on October 20, 2015, 05:29:26 AM
Every pliers-based multitool is either a Leatherman or a Leatherman knockoff.

You might find this an interesting read:

http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-index.php?page=Before+there+was+Leatherman

Quote
Despite the common misperception, multi-purpose knives and tools had been around long before Tim Leatherman's PST patent in 1983, with some examples predating this by over 100 years. The earliest tools were crude, yet exquisitely made. Some were built and sold by the tens of thousands, others were virtually hand built on a custom order basis. As manufacturing technology improved, so did the sophistication of these pre-Leatherman devices. By the 1950's they had become every bit as capable as some of the "name-brand" multitools that were introduced in the 1990's. Today these tools are seldom encountered, tucked away as they are in old farm houses or garages or antique stores.

Interesting

Quote from: Chako on October 20, 2015, 05:38:31 AM

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,13689.0.html

Crazy, good stuff

dks · **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2015, 08:55:56 PM

unbelievably some things were actually invented outside/before the US...

and knockoff implies a (cheap) copy, not just a similar style.

WoodMan · **Reply #17 on:** October 21, 2015, 05:46:15 AM

Quote from: gregozedobe on October 20, 2015, 12:52:51 PM

Quote from: WoodMan on October 20, 2015, 05:29:26 AM
Every pliers-based multitool is either a Leatherman or a Leatherman knockoff.

You might find this an interesting read:

http://wiki.multitool.org/tiki-index.php?page=Before+there+was+Leatherman

Quote
Despite the common misperception, multi-purpose knives and tools had been around long before Tim Leatherman's PST patent in 1983, with some examples predating this by over 100 years. The earliest tools were crude, yet exquisitely made. Some were built and sold by the tens of thousands, others were virtually hand built on a custom order basis. As manufacturing technology improved, so did the sophistication of these pre-Leatherman devices. By the 1950's they had become every bit as capable as some of the "name-brand" multitools that were introduced in the 1990's. Today these tools are seldom encountered, tucked away as they are in old farm houses or garages or antique stores.

I stand by my previous assertion. There is no example shown in the article that anyone can call a pliers-based multitool or even a logical antecedent to the 1983 PST. The Leatherman design was a great leap forward in utility which is precisely why it is so widely copied.

Lynn LeFey · **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2015, 06:00:36 AM

Well...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/385623-Chapter-6)-Before-there-was-Leatherman……

And I'd call the SOE and OSS Escape Knife the obvious predecessor to the Seaboard tool linked above. The Seaboard added pliers to the wire cutting function.
http://www.multi-tool.org/ossescapeknife

The Leatherman PST only looks revolutionary when you haven't seen the tools that came before it, that sort of faded into history. Each taking a step toward what Tim Leatherman made.

I'm not knocking the PST. The folding plier head design was a nice step, but it was ONLY a step. Not a great leap.

EDIT: OR... the thing shown but not described in the page linked above, circa 1919 plier tool...

http://www.multi-tool.org/vintagepliers

So... if you're not seeing 'logical antecedent' then I have to assume you're being willfully obstinate. The ONLY thing added to the PST compared to the Seaboard was a hinge at the plier head to fold it in, and a second hollow handle.

babola · **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2015, 06:51:53 AM

Quote from: Lynn LeFey on October 21, 2015, 06:00:36 AM

The ONLY thing added to the PST compared to the Seaboard was a hinge at the plier head to fold it in, and a second hollow handle.

Sure, but it's not that simple, though. Tim not only added the second handle, but came out with the extensive and varied tool load-out in a compact package, no other MT maker had before. Admittedly they all came close, but not quite. Plus all the tools including pliers head managed to be folded out-of-sight into two symmetrical hollow handles creating a simple, compact, attractive, eye pleasing package. Sure the very first proto was closer to a Frankenstein in looks department but the one which followed soon after was considered ahead of its time, back in the day.

Lynn LeFey · **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2015, 07:47:40 AM

I typed out a long... LONG response to this. Then I decided I didn't feel like arguing.

So, here's the simple truth. The SOG Toolclip is very clearly a relative of the Seaboard tool. Had the PST never existed, the SOG Toolclip still could have, which right there pretty much destroys the argument that there were no plier based MTs before the PST, since knockoffs of that (Pre-PST) design are still being made to this day. And since that was my only point, I'll simply leave it at that.

Simply put, the PST didn't introduce pliers to the MT world.

In fact, I think maybe THIS tool did...

dks · **Reply #21 on:** October 21, 2015, 07:55:37 AM

There is no denying the ingenuity of Tim Leatherman who is the father of the modern multitool, causing its rebirth if you like, but the overall idea and general principles have been around before him. (like, in a way, Apple

)

gregozedobe · **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:00:10 AM

I see lots of the major design concepts mentioned in the AB Co Happy Angler No. 300

scroll down in http://www.multi-tool.org/vintagepliers to see a picture:

hinge at the plier head to fold it in - check

the second hollow handle with tool - check

simple, compact, attractive, eye pleasing package - check

all the tools including pliers head managed to be folded out-of-sight into two symmetrical hollow handles - check

pliers-based multitool - check

logical antecedent to the 1983 PST - check (patented in 1964)

I'll admit that the pliers were rather special purpose, but this was designed as a fishing tool, so the pliers are excellent for their intended purpose. If ABCo had chosen to make a general purpose tool I'm sure the pliers would have been made more general purpose.

Another interesting 1960's tool was the Bonsa fishing tool. This only had a single handle, but the large pliers folded into the handle and it had 5 other tools (including tweezers). Scroll down further in the above link to see the pictures.

Given the above, I can't agree that the PST was such a revolutionary great leap forward in design. It was an advance, but there were other tools with the same/similar concepts that came before it (like many good "inventions").

in_sympathy · **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:09:00 AM

Quote from: dks on October 21, 2015, 07:55:37 AM

There is no denying the ingenuity of Tim Leatherman who is the father of the modern multitool, causing its rebirth if you like, but the overall idea and general principles have been around before him. (like, in a way, Apple )

Oh no, don't remind me

Well you did, so I'll check in here as well - maybe PST wasn't a revolution from some checklist point of view, but hell, if you want to compare it somehow, Macintosh was also just a computer with a keyboard and a screen some might say. Nevertheless most people want Macs since 1984 for some reason, despite the price and other computers availability. Did Apple invent graphical user interface or a mouse? No, Xerox did, but Apple made it perfectly usable for everyone, not just geeks and fanatics

Make your own conclusions

------------
Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

babola · **Reply #24 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:34:31 AM

Quote from: gregozedobe on October 21, 2015, 08:00:10 AM

I see lots of the major design concepts mentioned in the AB Co Happy Angler No. 300

scroll down in http://www.multi-tool.org/vintagepliers to see a picture:

hinge at the plier head to fold it in - check

the second hollow handle with tool - check

simple, compact, attractive, eye pleasing package - check

all the tools including pliers head managed to be folded out-of-sight into two symmetrical hollow handles - check

pliers-based multitool - check

logical antecedent to the 1983 PST - check (patented in 1964)

I'll admit that the pliers were rather special purpose, but this was designed as a fishing tool, so the pliers are excellent for their intended purpose. If ABCo had chosen to make a general purpose tool I'm sure the pliers would have been made more general purpose.

Another interesting 1960's tool was the Bonsa fishing tool. This only had a single handle, but the large pliers folded into the handle and it had 5 other tools (including tweezers). Scroll down further in the above link to see the pictures.

Given the above, I can't agree that the PST was such a revolutionary great leap forward in design. It was an advance, but there were other tools with the same/similar concepts that came before it (like many good "inventions").

Lol, not even close...I'm talking about multitool you'te comparing it to a fishing tool with half the implements first LM multi had.

Tim was after creating a multitool with multitude of varied implements for wide range of applications. Not a better fishing tool which already existed, not an upgrade to a multitude of existing plier based minitools with couple or few additiomal implements of limited use. And by the way he never stated he created anything super-revolutionary, just a better version of what was already available on the market and didn't provide him with with suitable tool option.

Your CHECK rant in response to my post doesn't compute, sorry. Apple and oranges...

gregozedobe · **Reply #25 on:** October 21, 2015, 11:49:19 AM

Quote from: babola on October 21, 2015, 08:34:31 AM

Your CHECK rant in response to my post doesn't compute, sorry. Apple and oranges...

You can have your OPINION, I'll keep mine thanks very much. Just because you say something doesn't make it a fact.

I'll let others make up their own minds on just how many totally new concepts Tim L came up with.

I'm happy to agree that Tim came up with the first LM PST and that it was more popular than any multitool that went before.

babola · **Reply #26 on:** October 21, 2015, 07:34:35 PM

Quote from: gregozedobe on October 21, 2015, 11:49:19 AM

Quote from: babola on October 21, 2015, 08:34:31 AM
Your CHECK rant in response to my post doesn't compute, sorry. Apple and oranges...

You can have your OPINION, I'll keep mine thanks very much. Just because you say something doesn't make it a fact. I'll let others make up their own minds on just how many totally new concepts Tim L came up with.

I'm happy to agree that Tim came up with the first LM PST and that it was more popular than any multitool that went before.

Sure