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Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?

cody6268 · 31 · 4492
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us Offline cody6268

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Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
on: November 21, 2015, 07:13:36 PM
I know this might sound like a pretty stupid question, but are Victorinox knives issued to forces other than the Swiss Army  (such as those for the Germans), but still being made by Victorinox or Wenger, still considered Swiss Army Knives?

« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 07:20:57 PM by cody6268 »
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #1 on: November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
 :D Well.....

Based on what tends to happen on the internet  :P ..... Victorinox (and Wenger) knives are all Swiss Army knives .... even if they're not, and never have been .... unless of course they are knives which have been made for a different army such as the Dutch or German.... in which case they are no longer Swiss Army Knives, and are now "purchasing country" army knives instead .... although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

You can thank me later when the migraine wears off  :salute:


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sg Offline red_rider_1979

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #2 on: November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time

no Offline Grathr

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Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #3 on: November 21, 2015, 07:40:53 PM
Now my head hurts! :twak:  :D
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00 Offline Fattsgalore

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #4 on: November 21, 2015, 07:49:46 PM
If it's made by Vic or Wen than yes. Is a Classic which isn't issued to any military force a SAK? Yes.

It's not about the military affiliation but the producer of the product. Remember the reason we call them Swiss army knives is cause the American GI's in WWII either couldn't or didn't want to say Swiss officers knife in German. So they were simply called Swiss Army Knives. It's a generalization more than anything, and the reason why the producers adopted the name. People may not know Vic or Wen, but they know what a Swiss Army Knife is.

us Offline Rich S

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #5 on: November 21, 2015, 09:38:29 PM
Perhaps we have a case of Schroedinger's SAK :-)
Rich
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us Offline ColoSwiss

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #6 on: November 22, 2015, 06:15:14 AM
Quote from: Rich S on November 21, 2015, 09:38:29 PM
Perhaps we have a case of Schroedinger's SAK :-)
Rich

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us Offline Alan K.

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #7 on: November 22, 2015, 06:23:45 AM
yes.
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au Offline Goldfile

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #8 on: November 22, 2015, 07:28:31 AM
Personally, I'd say that it's a Swiss Army Knife no matter what army they sell it to, as the knife is still made in Switzerland, the country of origin. It's just used by a different military. Unless the knife has been produced in for example Germany. Besides, it's readily available by civvies too.

However, that is just my opinion, it does look like we have a Schrodinger's cat here. I think the question is based upon opinion more than anything. But i'll do a little more digging and see what I can find.
My wife suggested that we go to Switzerland on holiday this year. I'm really scared because I have a knife that belongs to the Swiss army.

gb Offline Fast Bill

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 09:09:38 AM
Per Titanium Ad Tearoom.
Apex predator of fruit cake
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sg Offline red_rider_1979

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 09:26:16 AM
Physics101 lesson:

... Until one opens the box to examine the KNIFE, it can be thought of as both SAK and NON-SAK...


spam Offline comis

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 10:13:36 AM
Just repeating what I said in another thread, I think of the term 'SAK' as a brand name, more than a term or genre.  After all, IIRC, the term 'SAK' was used by US soldiers to call Victorinox (issued) knives during the war time, and that was before the brand name 'Victorinox' was used.

I think what's another interesting question is--if there are other brands making issued knives for the Swiss Army, will they be called SAK too?
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au Offline Huntsman

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #12 on: November 22, 2015, 10:39:29 AM
Yes I think they can be:-               'Swiss ....... Army Knives'

Or:-                                             'Swiss Army ...... Knvies'

 ???  ::)
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00 Offline Caranthanus

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #13 on: November 22, 2015, 08:25:54 PM
 :think:
Consideration is act of considering, i.e. is the concept of a wide range of meanings, from opinioning, trough estimation and so on, even up to the evaluating facts.
While understanding the consideration as an act of opinioning, then any term can be used according to someone's opinion, that is, how the subject feel/perceive something, irrespective of the facts.

Considering the term consideration as thought or evaluating facts, then the term have to be used according to the facts. That means, if someone (usually manufacturer or inventor or let's say global consensus of scientists/experts and so on) has named something and has also clearly specified what that object or concept it is and what it is not, then we have to use the term according to that very facts of its name and/or specifications.

So, some term/name can be used to specify something, i.e. to explain what that thing is, or it can be used just for naming/assigning a name to that thing – an example: you have a boat and you call it Shark/Medusa/whatever, but this in no way means that the boat is the thing shark, it's just its name or also a nickname; if you woul entitle your wife Medusa, that would not mean … you get it >:D

At some point V & W (manufacturers, authors) have named their products SAKs, so all those tools which can be identified like all those named as SAKs by companies/manufacturers, can be called SAKs. Then, when Vic makes a (in all effects) SAK, but for the purpose of selling it to the German army would call it GAK, that tool itself is still a SAK tool or boat in our case, although it is now named GAK or Shark in our case.

Considering the fact of the tool, the GAK is a SAK.
Considering the fact of the name, the GAK is a GAK.
Considering the fact of the new name for known tool, the GAK is a SAK now named GAK.
Considering the opinion about GAK, it can be/or can not be perceived as SAK, as it is in all effects a SAK tool, but it is also a thing/tool that is now named GAK.
 ;)

us Offline SAK Guy

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 09:42:26 PM
Quote from: Caranthanus on November 22, 2015, 08:25:54 PM
:think:
Consideration is act of considering, i.e. is the concept of a wide range of meanings, from opinioning, trough estimation and so on, even up to the evaluating facts.
While understanding the consideration as an act of opinioning, then any term can be used according to someone's opinion, that is, how the subject feel/perceive something, irrespective of the facts.

Considering the term consideration as thought or evaluating facts, then the term have to be used according to the facts. That means, if someone (usually manufacturer or inventor or let's say global consensus of scientists/experts and so on) has named something and has also clearly specified what that object or concept it is and what it is not, then we have to use the term according to that very facts of its name and/or specifications.

So, some term/name can be used to specify something, i.e. to explain what that thing is, or it can be used just for naming/assigning a name to that thing – an example: you have a boat and you call it Shark/Medusa/whatever, but this in no way means that the boat is the thing shark, it's just its name or also a nickname; if you woul entitle your wife Medusa, that would not mean … you get it >:D

At some point V & W (manufacturers, authors) have named their products SAKs, so all those tools which can be identified like all those named as SAKs by companies/manufacturers, can be called SAKs. Then, when Vic makes a (in all effects) SAK, but for the purpose of selling it to the German army would call it GAK, that tool itself is still a SAK tool or boat in our case, although it is now named GAK or Shark in our case.

Considering the fact of the tool, the GAK is a SAK.
Considering the fact of the name, the GAK is a GAK.
Considering the fact of the new name for known tool, the GAK is a SAK now named GAK.
Considering the opinion about GAK, it can be/or can not be perceived as SAK, as it is in all effects a SAK tool, but it is also a thing/tool that is now named GAK.
 ;)

Makes complete sense!!  :cheers:








 :think:
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00 Offline Caranthanus

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #15 on: November 22, 2015, 09:50:51 PM
Quote from: SAK Guy on November 22, 2015, 09:42:26 PM
Makes complete sense!!  :cheers:








 :think:
:D      :cheers:

gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #16 on: November 22, 2015, 10:02:25 PM
 :think:


.... so, I was right then....?


 :D


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00 Offline Caranthanus

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #17 on: November 22, 2015, 10:15:40 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 22, 2015, 10:02:25 PM
:think:


.... so, I was right then....?


 :D

Yes & No - consideration depending >:D :D ;)

gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #18 on: November 22, 2015, 10:19:40 PM
 :D


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us Offline tjfarrington2000

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #19 on: November 23, 2015, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: red_rider_1979 on November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time
didn't that cat die in a box, poisoned?


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ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #20 on: November 23, 2015, 08:40:49 AM
Quote from: tjfarrington2000 on November 23, 2015, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: red_rider_1979 on November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time
didn't that cat die in a box, poisoned?


Sent from my outdated communication device using an obsolete application
We can't be certain, she could also be alive and well... of course that would not explain the smell :D
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.

ro Offline Corwyn

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #21 on: November 23, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
Quote from: Etherealicer on November 23, 2015, 08:40:49 AM
Quote from: tjfarrington2000 on November 23, 2015, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: red_rider_1979 on November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time
didn't that cat die in a box, poisoned?


Sent from my outdated communication device using an obsolete application
We can't be certain, she could also be alive and well... of course that would not explain the smell :D

Corwyn of Multitool, the First of His name, King of Victorinox, King of Leatherman, Gerber and the First Generation SOG, Lord of the Seven Wrenches, Protector of the Forum, Khal of the Bushes, called Corwyn Toolborn, the Unsharpened, Father of SAKs.
Merit Badges Start a new thread with a photo of custom or non standard SAK scales in your collection Start a new thread and post a photo of a flashlight as part of your EDC Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread showing photos of at least 3 different sporks in use Start a new thread and post a photo of the leatherman (blast, wave or charge) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Cybertool (any variant), Swisschamp, Champion or Toolchest for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread with photos of your hobo knives in use Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must start a thread showing a photo of at least eight BO tools Start a thread with photos of at least five different colored ALOX models in your collection Start a thread with a photo of a repair you made with duct tape Start a new thread with a photo of a modded knife or multitool with your EDC Start a new thread and post a picture of fire making kit or fire with a multitool Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Start a new thread with a photo showing the Hook in use Must buy something on EDCSource Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos)

ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #22 on: November 23, 2015, 10:19:24 AM
Quote from: Corwyn on November 23, 2015, 08:45:01 AM
Quote from: Etherealicer on November 23, 2015, 08:40:49 AM
Quote from: tjfarrington2000 on November 23, 2015, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: red_rider_1979 on November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time
didn't that cat die in a box, poisoned?


Sent from my outdated communication device using an obsolete application
We can't be certain, she could also be alive and well... of course that would not explain the smell :D

(Image removed from quote.)
:rofl:

Great turn of events
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.

gr Offline firiki

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #23 on: November 23, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
Quote from: Fattsgalore on November 21, 2015, 07:49:46 PM
It's not about the military affiliation but the producer of the product.

This. They are SAKs issued in a different country's armed forces.
Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.

00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #24 on: November 23, 2015, 11:55:38 AM
Quote from: Etherealicer on November 23, 2015, 08:40:49 AM
Quote from: tjfarrington2000 on November 23, 2015, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: red_rider_1979 on November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time
didn't that cat die in a box, poisoned?


Sent from my outdated communication device using an obsolete application
We can't be certain, she could also be alive and well... of course that would not explain the smell :D

Well,no,cats arn't so stupid to get stuck in a box with a deadly substance and a limited amount of air. The cat is actually eating some tuna,and washing it down with cold milk in a parallel dimension after slipping out through Schrodingers Catflap!
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!
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ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #25 on: November 23, 2015, 12:01:26 PM
Quote from: kirk13 on November 23, 2015, 11:55:38 AM
Quote from: Etherealicer on November 23, 2015, 08:40:49 AM
Quote from: tjfarrington2000 on November 23, 2015, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: red_rider_1979 on November 21, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
Quote from: 50ft-trad on November 21, 2015, 07:28:30 PM
although they are still Swiss Army Knives as well as not being Swiss Army Knives ....

Reminds me of Schrodinger's cat... being considered as both alive and dead at the same time
didn't that cat die in a box, poisoned?


Sent from my outdated communication device using an obsolete application
We can't be certain, she could also be alive and well... of course that would not explain the smell :D

Well,no,cats arn't so stupid to get stuck in a box with a deadly substance and a limited amount of air. The cat is actually eating some tuna,and washing it down with cold milk in a parallel dimension after slipping out through Schrodingers Catflap!
You can't know that, you can't even proof that after going thought to the parallel dimension it's still the same cat. It might just be an identical copy (see LHC teleportation experiments). Of course this is a can of worms. If something gets destroyed at a sub-atomic level and re-built, did it die? Is it still alive? Is it dead and alive?
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.

ro Offline Corwyn

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #26 on: November 23, 2015, 12:08:59 PM
We had a joke here about Dacia cars (in case you did not know, these are Romanian cars copied after French designs - mostly Renault 12, now it has been bought over by Renault and makes the reasonable Logan and Sandero budget cars). Anyway, especially older versions were famous for poor build quality, which made it break down often and would get you soaking wet during a rain.

Here is the car and below is the joke:


Ford manufacturer is asked how he tests car tightness:
We use the cat test!
How does that work?
We put a cat in a car, we close the doors and if it dies in two days, the car is tight.

Mercedes manufacturer is asked how he tests car tightness:
We use the cat test!
How does that work?
We put a cat in a car, we close the doors and if it dies in four hours, the car is tight.

Dacia manufacturer is asked how he tests car tightness:
We use the cat test!
How does that work?
We put a cat in a car, we close the doors and wherever it sticks her head out, we fill the whole with putty.  :D
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 12:18:43 PM by Corwyn »
Corwyn of Multitool, the First of His name, King of Victorinox, King of Leatherman, Gerber and the First Generation SOG, Lord of the Seven Wrenches, Protector of the Forum, Khal of the Bushes, called Corwyn Toolborn, the Unsharpened, Father of SAKs.
Merit Badges Start a new thread with a photo of custom or non standard SAK scales in your collection Start a new thread and post a photo of a flashlight as part of your EDC Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread showing photos of at least 3 different sporks in use Start a new thread and post a photo of the leatherman (blast, wave or charge) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Cybertool (any variant), Swisschamp, Champion or Toolchest for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread with photos of your hobo knives in use Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must start a thread showing a photo of at least eight BO tools Start a thread with photos of at least five different colored ALOX models in your collection Start a thread with a photo of a repair you made with duct tape Start a new thread with a photo of a modded knife or multitool with your EDC Start a new thread and post a picture of fire making kit or fire with a multitool Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Start a new thread with a photo showing the Hook in use Must buy something on EDCSource Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos)

cy Offline dks

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #27 on: November 23, 2015, 12:13:25 PM
The sandero, seems like a good option, at least in its basic form.
Kelly: "Daddy, what makes men cheat on women?
Al : "Women!"

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gr Offline firiki

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #28 on: November 23, 2015, 12:20:51 PM
Quote from: Etherealicer on November 23, 2015, 12:01:26 PM
You can't know that, you can't even proof that after going thought to the parallel dimension it's still the same cat. It might just be an identical copy (see LHC teleportation experiments). Of course this is a can of worms. If something gets destroyed at a sub-atomic level and re-built, did it die? Is it still alive? Is it dead and alive?

Nothing endures but change... You could not step twice into the same river... etc etc.  ;)
Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.

00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Non-Swiss issued Victorinox still SAKs?
Reply #29 on: November 24, 2015, 01:21:16 AM
Quote from: dks on November 23, 2015, 12:13:25 PM
The sandero, seems like a good option, at least in its basic form.

James May is a big fan :pok:

And on that Amazonian bombshell....
There is no beginning,or ending,and for this we are thankful,cos now is hard enough to understand!
Merit Badges Must start a thread with a photo of your EDC watch Start a thread with photos of at least five different colored ALOX models in your collection Start a new thread and post a photo of the discontinued sak/mt for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread with a photo of a modded knife or multitool with your EDC Start a new thread with a photo of custom or non standard SAK scales in your collection Must post a step by step pictorial of a knife or multitool modification (scale swap not included) Start a new thread with photos of a Japanese made PST in your collection

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