Hybrid cars- anyone have one?

[Vidar]

I believe ours will do 0-100 in 4.8 seconds or so, which is a turtle in comparison. But it is more than enough for daily driving and then some. Practically speaking the key difference is that you can press it too hard in winter times and spin out on all four wheels at once and go places the road doesn't. To be fair these is the limited mode for slippery conditions.

A motor on each wheel is genius though for off road. Even two motors is like driving an ICE car with a locked centre differential.

[Farmer X]

I believe ours will do 0-100 in 4.8 seconds or so...

I assume that's 0-100 KPH?

[Vidar]

Yes. I'm quite metric

[powernoodle]

Sorry to make you peoples jealous, but my hybrid Sienna AWD will rocket from 0 - 60 mph in a scant 7.5 seconds. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Sorry to make you peoples jealous, but my hybrid Sienna AWD will rocket from 0 - 60 mph in a scant 7.5 seconds.  (Image removed from quote.)

Wow, that even beats my Jeep at a mere 5.8 seconds.

You know, when it was new.... and had normal sized tires. 

Nowadays I don't know if it will even hit 60mph anymore!   

Def

[Vidar]

I once drove an unknown brand 3 cylinder rental car. It topped out at 90 kph and it only took 50-60 seconds to get there. You knew you were getting closer from the increased high pitch sound giving associations to sewing machines going rogue. (One had to go by ear as the needle of speedometer moved too slowly to tell).

I've had cars with around 10 seconds to a 100. Theyt worked just fine too.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I had ChatGPT run some calculations for me on potential charging options.

The results weren't very reassuring.

Option 1- Potatoes

Charging a Tesla Model 3 with potatoes is an interesting thought experiment, but it's impractical for several reasons. Here’s a breakdown of the concept:

Potato Power
Electrochemical Potential: A single potato can generate approximately 0.5 volts and a very small current (around 0.2 milliamperes), using zinc and copper electrodes.

Tesla Model 3 Battery Specifications
Battery Capacity: A Tesla Model 3's battery has a capacity of around 50-75 kWh (kilowatt-hours), depending on the model.
Calculation
Energy Required:

For simplicity, let’s take the average battery capacity of 60 kWh (60,000 watt-hours).
To charge this battery, you need 60,000 watt-hours of energy.

Energy from Potatoes:

A single potato generates around 0.5 volts and 0.0002 amps.
Power (P) = Voltage (V) × Current (I)
Power per potato = 0.5 V × 0.0002 A = 0.0001 watts (0.1 milliwatts).
Energy per potato-hour = 0.0001 watt-hours.
Number of Potatoes:

Total potatoes needed = Total energy required / Energy per potato-hour
Total potatoes = 60,000 watt-hours / 0.0001 watt-hours
Total potatoes ≈ 600,000,000 potatoes.

This rough calculation shows that you would need about 600 million potatoes to charge a Tesla Model 3, which is clearly impractical.

Conclusion
While the idea of using potatoes to generate electricity is fascinating and can be a fun educational experiment, it’s not feasible for practical applications like charging an electric car. The power output of potatoes is far too low, and the number of potatoes required would be astronomical. For practical purposes, electric vehicles are best charged using conventional electricity from the grid or renewable energy sources like solar panels.


Option 2- BioLite Camp Stove

Charging an electric vehicle (EV) using a BioLite CampStove is theoretically possible, but highly impractical due to the significant difference in power output between the stove and the requirements of an EV battery.

BioLite CampStove Power Output
Power Generation: The BioLite CampStove generates around 3-5 watts of electricity while burning biomass.

USB Output: It can output 5 volts at up to 1 amp via USB, which is sufficient to charge small devices like phones, cameras, and lights.
Tesla Model 3 Battery Requirements
Battery Capacity: A Tesla Model 3 has a battery capacity of approximately 50-75 kWh (50,000-75,000 watt-hours).
Charging Power: A standard home charger for a Tesla can deliver around 7.7 kW (7,700 watts) or more.

Calculation and Practicality
Energy Output:

The BioLite CampStove produces about 5 watts.
To provide 1 kWh (1,000 watt-hours) of energy, it would need to operate continuously for 200 hours (1,000 watt-hours / 5 watts).
Charging a Tesla Model 3:

For a 60 kWh battery, it would take:
60
,
000
 watt-hours
/
5
 watts
=
12
,
000
 hours
60,000 watt-hours/5 watts=12,000 hours

This equates to approximately 500 days of continuous operation, which is clearly impractical.

Conclusion
While the BioLite CampStove is a fantastic device for generating small amounts of electricity for camping and emergency situations, it is not suitable for charging an EV due to its very low power output relative to the enormous energy requirements of an electric vehicle's battery.

For practical EV charging, it's best to use a dedicated EV charger connected to the electrical grid or a renewable energy source like solar panels or a wind turbine, which can provide the necessary power to charge the vehicle efficiently.


Option 3- Running on carpet while wearing socks

Charging a Tesla by running on carpet while wearing socks is not feasible. This idea is based on the generation of static electricity, which occurs when you build up an electric charge on your body through friction, such as by running on a carpet. However, static electricity has very different characteristics from the electricity used to charge an electric vehicle. Here are some key points to understand why this method won't work:

Characteristics of Static Electricity:
High Voltage, Low Current: Static electricity can generate high voltage (thousands of volts), but it involves extremely low current (microamperes or less).

Short Duration: The discharge of static electricity is typically very brief, lasting only a fraction of a second.
Uncontrolled and Unsafe: Static discharges are unpredictable and can damage electronic components.
Requirements for Charging an EV:
Substantial Power: Charging a Tesla requires substantial power. A standard home charger provides around 7.7 kW, while Tesla Superchargers can provide up to 250 kW.

Continuous and Controlled Current: The charging process requires a continuous and controlled supply of current over a long period.
Comparison:
Static Electricity: High voltage (up to tens of thousands of volts), extremely low current, and very short duration.
EV Charging: Low voltage (240 volts for home charging), high current (up to hundreds of amperes), and continuous supply over hours.

Practicality:
Even though static electricity from running on carpet can generate high voltage, the amount of energy (in terms of power) is minuscule. For example, a brief static discharge might release energy in the order of millijoules (thousandths of a joule), whereas charging a Tesla Model 3 requires kilowatt-hours (millions of joules). Therefore, the energy generated by static electricity is billions of times less than what is needed to charge an electric vehicle.

Conclusion:
While static electricity can be fascinating and even produce a visible spark, it is entirely impractical for charging an electric vehicle like a Tesla. Reliable and significant sources of electrical energy, such as home charging stations or commercial EV chargers, are necessary for this purpose.

Seriously, it's like EV manufacturers aren't even trying.

 

Def

[Farmer X]

Charging with a BioLite camp stove may have occurred to me, but I never would have thought about potatoes! The thought of a Tesla driver trying to charge his battery while running on carpet...

Seriously, though, those calculations make an EV seem hideously impractical for back country excursions. Unless it has an extremely long-range battery that's fully charged when one leaves the house, or maybe one takes a solar panel along, how do you get it going again if the battery dies? Maybe Vidar discovered a work-around?

[Grant Lamontagne]

The same way you get an internal combustion engine started again when you run out of gas- you don't!   

Seriously, for that kind of situation I would likely bring along a generator or something. 

I know, I know, hypocrite etc, since I have left gasoline I shouldn't be allowed to use gas yadda yadda yadda. 

But that's what I'd do, feel free to follow me and make TikToks that talk about what an idiot I am. 

I have done the math and I have learned that you need seven 400 watt solar panels (technically six and a half) to charge the battery on a Ford Lightning, which is easy enough to carry in the bed, but probably wouldn't be in great shape after a lengthy trail ride, so I don't think solar is the best choice for that.

There is a company I have been following for a while called Shine that offers a portable windmill for charging devices.

https://shineturbine.com/

They are a local company and a very interesting product for the outdoors community.  The current model outputs 50w which would take 82 days to charge the standard battery on the Lightning, and 110 days to charge the extended battery- but these numbers are assuming your battery is completely dead and you want to charge to 100% before full.  I'd think realistically you'd have some juice left in the battery when you made camp, and would appreciate a partial charge- maybe in the few days you are camping you could extend your range enough to get to a real charge point.

There is, however a new model coming from Shine, which will output 300w, which cuts the charge times down to 14 and 19 days, which is still a bit excessive, but a bit more doable.

All of this is moot though as I don't think any EV is something that you can charge via USB A or USB C port, so unless you have one heck of an adaptor, it's just a math experiment with no real world application anyway.  And I don't know of any potato or sock based adaptors currently in production either!

What brought all of this on is a product called the NOCO Genius Boost.  It's basically a large battery bank (like the ones you get for a phone) that it USB rechargeable and comes with a set of plug in jumper cables. 

My BioLite is a first generation camp stove, not as powerful as later models, and it is hungry!  I was wondering if I was camping and had a dead battery in my Jeep, and somehow my Genius Boost was also dead, how much wood would I need to charge the Genius Boost enough to boost my Jeep?

I think that is a much more reasonable test than trying to charge an EV!

Here's the info on my BioLite by the way:

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=54472.0

It is my most used camp stove- I love it and I use it frequently at work.   

Anyways, long rambling post- not sure it has much to do with addressing what you said, but there it is!   

Def

[Vidar]

Maybe Vidar discovered a work-around?

If your backcountry expedition is further than your electric car can go and back again then you either need a generator or other means of getting power. That is rarely a problem around here as there few areas with such distances of drivable wilderness - where there is a road there is usually also power within that distance. (The power companies have actually placed chargers to make sure almost anywhere is covered - that includes on long stretches in the middle of nowhere).

The better solution however is boring and pragmatic - for those rare occasions borrow or rent a ICE car with extra fuel cans if necessary. I swap cars when needed (three times so far over the years - two of those for heavy trailer use), and they are typically happy to get to use ours for theirs. If I did have to rent for those occasions it would still make economical sense - we save about USD 2500 per year on fuel compared to electric cost. That should cover a rental as needed once or twice per year with some leeway to go.

[Vidar]

Ups, I quoted myself again. Clearly not that much worth quoting so deleting this one.

[Farmer X]

The same way you get an internal combustion engine started again when you run out of gas- you don't!   

Of course, I forgot to add some information: with an ICE vehicle, you can bring along a couple of 5-gallon jerry-cans. That should get you enough range to reach a fuel stop, unless you're very far from civilization (see below). I don't think there's an EV equivalent to the jerry-can.

Here's the info on my BioLite by the way:

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=54472.0

That was a good read, especially Megan's posts!

If your backcountry expedition is further than your electric car can go and back again then you either need a generator or other means of getting power. That is rarely a problem around here as there few areas with such distances of drivable wilderness - where there is a road there is usually also power within that distance.

Sounds as if you don't really need a work-around. In some of the more desolate areas of the States, you can see signs on the highway reading "next services 169 miles." Many such areas are in the desert. It's wise to top off your fuel tanks (and especially batteries) before you travel those 169 miles, even if you’re carrying a reserve.

[Vidar]

Sounds as if you don't really need a work-around.

No, not really. I can think of one or two places which might be out of reach here, but then again they might not have roads I can legally drive anyway.

There are these battery generators (really just batteries with AC power out) that will take you bit further, but considering the costs jerry cans and ICE is much better.

I will say this for an electric car though if you are way out there on a permanent basis - you can make electricity in various ways and charge your car. For an ICE vehicle your chances of hitting oil and putting up an oil refinery yourself are so-so at best.  (We have a creek and a decent sized pipe with some fall running by the workshop - with a micro hydro power generator attached that would charge the car in a day).

[Farmer X]

Good point about the refinery!

On a somewhat related note, I had the misfortune to get a close look at a Cybertruck today. (Not what you may be thinking; I walked past where it was parked.) Even an Aztek would look good parked next to that...thing.

[Vidar]

I have yet to see one in the wild here. Which by the sound of it might be for the better!

[Farmer X]

I'm still half-convinced you could split wood with that thing.

[Vidar]

I'm still half-convinced you could split wood with that thing.

Add some speed and sure thing!

Back in the day I had a friend who used an Audi to split a big pine tree into three sections. They found the mid section by the car. They didn't find the lower end and root until the day after. It was hiding right under the top part - the top had just fallen straight down. Almost like this trick where you rip away the tablecloth without crushing all the porcelain on top. Just with the mid section of a fully grown pine tree instead of a tablecloth.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I've seen one Cybertruck in person and that's enough for me.  I spotted it when we were in Sonoma, California not long ago, and it was even uglier in person than it was in the pictures.  Definitely not my cup of tea, but I guess some people like them.  It's true that there is no accounting for taste.

The "off road for an extended period" conversation is an interesting one for sure.  I've even thought about it going a step further, and I'd say that an EV would be a superior bug out type vehicle to an ICE simply because you can make electricity a lot easier than you can make 87 octane.

With a windmill, water wheel, solar panels etc one can recharge an EV.  It might not be optimal charging, but it sure would be a lot more manageable than trying to drill for oil, extract it frm the ground and refine it into a useful fuel.

The argument of using grain alcohol then comes into play as well, but really, if your engine isn't built to run on it, it likely isn't going to work well or long.  And, you need a ready supply of sugar, which means farming, then fermenting, then distilling.... which is all a lot of effort for a fluid that won't really work all that well.

I'd thought for off road excursions what you should have is one of those off road campers everyone seems to be getting into nowadays, but have a portable windmill that attaches to it, and some solar panels, then put a Tesla type battery in it.  Set up camp, let it charge all day long while you explore in the EV, then come back, plug it into the trailer and transfer the power from the trailer to the EV, knowing it will charge itself up again the next day.

Def

[powernoodle]

I see the Cybertruck as a big, expensive toy that will plummet in value.  But I would still like to play with one.   

[Vidar]

...that will plummet in value...

Sounds like most cars. I think the rule of thumb here is 20% reduced value first year, then about 10% each of later years. It is often the most expensive part of having a car yet often underestimated. Electric and ICE cars are about the same regarding this - at least over here.

[Farmer X]

I've seen one Cybertruck in person and that's enough for me.

I've seen them on at least two occasions. That's about 1,002 times too many.

I'd say that an EV would be a superior bug out type vehicle to an ICE simply because you can make electricity a lot easier than you can make 87 octane.

That's true. The question is, can you make enough to charge those batteries? If bugging out in an EV is the only viable option,  I'd sure hope the battery is fully charged. And unless you took proper precautions to protect your ride, or you have a vehicle that's mostly mechanical, that becomes a moot point if you're bugging out after an EMP attack.

[Vidar]

That's true. The question is, can you make enough to charge those batteries? If bugging out in an EV is the only viable option,  I'd sure hope the battery is fully charged. And unless you took proper precautions to protect your ride, or you have a vehicle that's mostly mechanical, that becomes a moot point if you're bugging out after an EMP attack.

Horses. Amazing means of transport. Even find their own fuel and fills up given the chance. No mechanical errors and not sensitive to EMP attacks. (ICE cars depend on electronics too.. Even my old and almost fully hydraulically controlled excavator need a tiny electronic brain to control the diesel engine). I've briefly tried dog sledding but all those dogs seemed like way more work than a horse.

[Farmer X]

Horses. Amazing means of transport.

Just one problem with horses: I'm allergic to them..

[Grant Lamontagne]

So Dan is on foot, Vidar will be on horseback and I'll take the dog sled because I'm Canadian and they also double as a security system....

Anyone else bugging out with us after the EMP?   

Def

[Farmer X]

 

I'm guessing you're bugging out in the winter? Or I guess you could somehow bolt a set of wheels and tires to a dog sled for summer bug-outs?

[Vidar]

I'm guessing you're bugging out in the winter? Or I guess you could somehow bolt a set of wheels and tires to a dog sled for summer bug-outs?

Or just buy one of those which already has wheels and is made for dog-sledding in summer? 

While horses are great - if I had to bug-out from here I'm really thinking boat. Preferably sailboat. 

[Farmer X]

Bugging out via boat could be a viable option for me, too. I'm close enough to the Detroit River.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I feel like being on the Detroit River is its own life threatening challenge!

Unless you are taking it to Canada, then you'd probably be okay.

Def

[Farmer X]

It's not that bad. The Flint River is the one that's polluted all to smurf.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yeah, I doubt there are many people left on the planet that haven't heard of Flint's water issues!

Def