Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
+-

Hello Lurker! Remove this ad and much more by logging in.


Paying a premium for 1095? 1363

Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Paying a premium for 1095?
« on: February 08, 2019, 04:01:21 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,680
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 04:03:39 PM »
 :iagree:
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,837 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 06:37:33 PM »
I have one hand made carbon steel knife (fixed blade) which cost over £100, and a D2 folder which cost more, but for most purposes I much prefer stainless, and my carbon steel knives rarely get used. If I was starting over from scratch, I wouldn't bother with carbon steels for anything other than axe heads.



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 08:37:39 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:.


I don't think I'd make a blanket statement about value.  Sure, the cost of 'premium' steels adds to the cost of many knives, and 1095 is not considered 'premuim'. But I might be willing to pay more for a custom made knife, made from 1095, especially if it were something like a 12" Bowie. 

1095 is just a fantastic knife steel. It is well proven and takes a great edge.
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2019, 08:47:28 PM »
1095 is wonderful.  A custom will cost and would be well worth it to whomever order one.  I was mostly being vague for curiosity sake.  A 1095 production fixed blade at 150 and above in the 5 inch blade size used for say camping  :think:

Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2019, 09:01:56 PM »
1095 is wonderful.  A custom will cost and would be well worth it to whomever order one.  I was mostly being vague for curiosity sake.  A 1095 production fixed blade at 150 and above in the 5 inch blade size used for say camping  :think:

A KaBar? Or Ontario? Or Schrade?   Yeah, $100 for a 5" knife seems like a tipping point in my decision-making process.  Even so, 1095 has its place. If I found a knife design I really liked, with excellent fit and finish, and rock-solid 1095, I might be tempted at a higher price.  :dunno:

No Life Club Posts: 4,375 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2019, 09:16:40 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:.
You'll pay more for a custom 1095 but i think you are buying the custom. Not the steel, so what ever the market will bear.

On a production knife if you pay more it's for a quality knife and not the steel. 1095 is not an expensive steel.

Short answer I would not pay a premium for 1095.
It will depend on the knife but there is a price point where I expect a better steel than 1095.

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,305
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2019, 11:05:27 PM »
Who's charging a premium for 1095 steel? I have some folders made with 1095 that some might consider expensive. It is the craftsmanship and materials that make them expensive not the 1095 steel.    :)

What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.

Hold Fast
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2019, 12:22:43 AM »
 :iagree:
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2019, 12:59:36 AM »
Who's charging a premium for 1095 steel? I have some folders made with 1095 that some might consider expensive. It is the craftsmanship and materials that make them expensive not the 1095 steel.    :)

Probably not the best choice of word for the thread title.  Its all relative I know.  Homes in Cali are 1/2 Million for a fixer and for some its insane.  I totally get it.  What ones sees as expensive is very personal.  Heck what some pay for shoes is more than most spend on collections.

Im not sure what a good thread title would be.  I will say that I have a threshold of what feels high for me to spend on 1095 for an off the shelf blade, fixed or folder.  I tossed a figure out there but let me reel it back in.  If a custom blade is what we're talking about then for sure the cost goes up.  If we're talking higher end production knife yup higher the cost.   

Camp knife that'll do everything from cut food to fun bushcraft stuff.  EDC fixed blade that cut garden hose, open bags of mulch, chop up a chicken, and slice onions.  I dont think we are talking hunters? 

1095 pocket knives would probably be traditionals?       



 

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 1,177
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2019, 01:22:43 AM »
    One examle:
I would think the new BK62 is overpriced for thin stock and a couple of wood scales. One seller says msrp of $182 selling for $136.
Yes very slightly tapered tang but currently at the sale price that would be a $190 AUD knife without shipping.

Andrew
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2019, 01:38:41 AM »
Fair point, Sak-six-oh.




This feels more like a knife that should be in the US $60-$80 price range.  Sure, it has some historical importance and an iconic relevance, but it is basically a modified butcher's knife with couple of scales.

Back in the day, this knife would have cost an astonishing $5. But that was then. I don't think my pockets are deep enough to hand over $120 for a fairly crude and unrefined knife (As said by a big Kephart fan.).
No Life Club Posts: 1,177
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 02:16:22 AM »
Fair point, Sak-six-oh.

(Image removed from quote.)


This feels more like a knife that should be in the US $60-$80 price range.  Sure, it has some historical importance and an iconic relevance, but it is basically a modified butcher's knife with couple of scales.

Back in the day, this knife would have cost an astonishing $5. But that was then. I don't think my pockets are deep enough to hand over $120 for a fairly crude and unrefined knife (As said by a big Kephart fan.).
I agree totally  :tu:


Andrew
No Life Club Posts: 3,408
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 09:07:08 AM »
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....

I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.

Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.

Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 02:05:10 PM »
    One examle:
I would think the new BK62 is overpriced for thin stock and a couple of wood scales. One seller says msrp of $182 selling for $136.
Yes very slightly tapered tang but currently at the sale price that would be a $190 AUD knife without shipping.

 :iagree: pretty much a knife I was thinking. 

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2019, 02:05:43 PM »
Fair point, Sak-six-oh.

(Image removed from quote.)


This feels more like a knife that should be in the US $60-$80 price range.  Sure, it has some historical importance and an iconic relevance, but it is basically a modified butcher's knife with couple of scales.

Back in the day, this knife would have cost an astonishing $5. But that was then. I don't think my pockets are deep enough to hand over $120 for a fairly crude and unrefined knife (As said by a big Kephart fan.).
I agree totally  :tu:

 :iagree:

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 02:13:47 PM »
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....

I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.

Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.

Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.

1095 is wonderful steel.  If makers aren't getting the most out of their steel then shame on them.  Heck we hear all the time how Esee does a wonderful job on their 1095.  1095 is to many a benchmark of what steel can be when done properly.  Its not gone away like many steels in favor of the newer stuff.  It wont anytime soon either.  I just don't see myself paying what I personally consider a premium for a production knife with it.       

Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 03:33:36 PM »

I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.



 :rofl:   So true! 
No Life Club Posts: 4,375 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2019, 04:12:59 PM »
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....

I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.

Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.

Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.

To that I say Smurf Poop. Sounds like a man with an agenda not a man looking for facts.

Mostly I would not pay any attention to some guy on you tube.
There's the guy who does a lot of testing but admits he's not the best sharpener. That alone makes his results meaningless.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
There's the guy that thinks he has to chop in all his tests. Good chopping and good edge retention are two entirely different things.

A lot of manufactures run a steel soft by design GEC's 1095 is - 57-59 HRC., Kabar Mark 1 – is 56-58 HRC. Very different knives designed with very different uses in mind.

The old saying goes “there is no bad steel just the wrong steel for the job”.  To that I would add there is also a wrong steel for the user. If you're happy sharpening with a natural stone CPM S90V is a bad steel choice. If you want the better edge retention, 1085CV aka CV is bad steel choice.

As far as heat treat goes “you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear”.
Case heat treats their 420HC to 54-56 HRC, Buck heat treats their 420HC to 58 HRC. Neither can hold an edge as well as  GEC's 1095 at 57-59 HRC.
The difference in Case 420HC and Buck 420HC might be 30%.
Heat treat makes a difference but it can not work miracles on steel.  If two blades have the same profile and good heat treat, blade alloy wins the edge retention game. Every time.

Both heat treat and geometry being optimal, the concept that 1095 edge retention can compete with some of the so called super steels is just wrong.
Steel is a compromise at best. I know I can cut 120 feet of cardboard with a 1095 GEC, 220 feet with Queens D2 and easily cut 500 plus feet with S90V.
What I gain in edge retention with S90V, I loose in toughness. If for some reason I would want to chop with a S90V blade, it's to brittle and will chip or break. 1095 is much better suited to such tasks. If I want a stainless knife with most of the qualitys of 1095, I'll pick A2.

1095 is a good steel and has stood the test of time it is not a cheap steel. 1095 is an inexpensive steel, it's easy to manufacture and easy to work with.
For those reasons alone I would not pay a premium for it.

No Life Club Posts: 1,737
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2019, 04:26:38 PM »
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....

I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.

Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.

Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.

To that I say Smurf Poop. Sounds like a man with an agenda not a man looking for facts.

Mostly I would not pay any attention to some guy on you tube.
There's the guy who does a lot of testing but admits he's not the best sharpener. That alone makes his results meaningless.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
There's the guy that thinks he has to chop in all his tests. Good chopping and good edge retention are two entirely different things.

A lot of manufactures run a steel soft by design GEC's 1095 is - 57-59 HRC., Kabar Mark 1 – is 56-58 HRC. Very different knives designed with very different uses in mind.

The old saying goes “there is no bad steel just the wrong steel for the job”.  To that I would add there is also a wrong steel for the user. If you're happy sharpening with a natural stone CPM S90V is a bad steel choice. If you want the better edge retention, 1085CV aka CV is bad steel choice.

As far as heat treat goes “you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear”.
Case heat treats their 420HC to 54-56 HRC, Buck heat treats their 420HC to 58 HRC. Neither can hold an edge as well as  GEC's 1095 at 57-59 HRC.
The difference in Case 420HC and Buck 420HC might be 30%.
Heat treat makes a difference but it can not work miracles on steel.  If two blades have the same profile and good heat treat, blade alloy wins the edge retention game. Every time.

Both heat treat and geometry being optimal, the concept that 1095 edge retention can compete with some of the so called super steels is just wrong.
Steel is a compromise at best. I know I can cut 120 feet of cardboard with a 1095 GEC, 220 feet with Queens D2 and easily cut 500 plus feet with S90V.
What I gain in edge retention with S90V, I loose in toughness. If for some reason I would want to chop with a S90V blade, it's to brittle and will chip or break. 1095 is much better suited to such tasks. If I want a stainless knife with most of the qualitys of 1095, I'll pick A2.

1095 is a good steel and has stood the test of time it is not a cheap steel. 1095 is an inexpensive steel, it's easy to manufacture and easy to work with.
For those reasons alone I would not pay a premium for it.

Good post.

Personally the first knife that leapt to mind from this post was the BK62 and for the same reasons as everyone else. It's a $50-80 (max) knife with a name that hikes up the price. I like the knife, I like Kephart and read his camping book recently but I wouldn't pay over $100 for it. To be frank with Mora's so cheap, I'd have a significant question mark over paying over $50 for a 'normal' sized production fixie in 1095.

I get why 1095 on a fixie. Nice, quick and easy to sharpen in the field. Same reason that I have an affection for SAK's as EDC. But I don't expect to pay more for that bonus, especially not for carbon steel.  It's a conciliation prize not a feature. CPM154 for example doesn't take all that much longer to bring back to razor sharp and it's considerably better in every other way.

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,305
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2019, 05:57:57 PM »
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....

I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.

Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.

Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.

To that I say Smurf Poop. Sounds like a man with an agenda not a man looking for facts.

Mostly I would not pay any attention to some guy on you tube.
There's the guy who does a lot of testing but admits he's not the best sharpener. That alone makes his results meaningless.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
There's the guy that thinks he has to chop in all his tests. Good chopping and good edge retention are two entirely different things.

A lot of manufactures run a steel soft by design GEC's 1095 is - 57-59 HRC., Kabar Mark 1 – is 56-58 HRC. Very different knives designed with very different uses in mind.

The old saying goes “there is no bad steel just the wrong steel for the job”.  To that I would add there is also a wrong steel for the user. If you're happy sharpening with a natural stone CPM S90V is a bad steel choice. If you want the better edge retention, 1085CV aka CV is bad steel choice.

As far as heat treat goes “you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear”.
Case heat treats their 420HC to 54-56 HRC, Buck heat treats their 420HC to 58 HRC. Neither can hold an edge as well as  GEC's 1095 at 57-59 HRC.
The difference in Case 420HC and Buck 420HC might be 30%.
Heat treat makes a difference but it can not work miracles on steel.  If two blades have the same profile and good heat treat, blade alloy wins the edge retention game. Every time.

Both heat treat and geometry being optimal, the concept that 1095 edge retention can compete with some of the so called super steels is just wrong.
Steel is a compromise at best. I know I can cut 120 feet of cardboard with a 1095 GEC, 220 feet with Queens D2 and easily cut 500 plus feet with S90V.
What I gain in edge retention with S90V, I loose in toughness. If for some reason I would want to chop with a S90V blade, it's to brittle and will chip or break. 1095 is much better suited to such tasks. If I want a stainless knife with most of the qualitys of 1095, I'll pick A2.

1095 is a good steel and has stood the test of time it is not a cheap steel. 1095 is an inexpensive steel, it's easy to manufacture and easy to work with.
For those reasons alone I would not pay a premium for it.

Good post Dean.   :tu:   I might add. I have a lot of 1095 from different makers. I also have knives that are made of so called super steels. In my experience there is no way 1095 is even close to those steels in over all performance.    :D

What? Enablers! Are you serrrrious? Where? I dont see any.

Hold Fast
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2019, 05:59:04 PM »
Thank you Dean51 and pomsbz for you thoughts and post  :tu:.

Well said, "1095 is a good steel and has stood the test of time it is not a cheap steel. 1095 is an inexpensive steel."
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 06:00:14 PM by Aloha »

Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 05:32:48 AM »
I don't think A2 is a stainless steel.

I do like A2, and have a couple knives made with it. But it's just a tool steel. Seems like it would be nice to work with, since it is an air-hardening steel.
No Life Club Posts: 3,408
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 07:43:32 AM »

There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.


I suspect we're talking about this guy. Personally, as a part-time knife maker, I really appreciate his contribution to the knowledge base. Though it doesn't bother me, but I do wish he could get out his message without getting a bug up the smurf of people like you.

The point I'm trying to make is you need to differentiate between custom and production knives.  Steve has joked that Spyderco will send a hitman after him, and as a sprintrun owner I'm not exactly happy to find out they're not getting the most all the steel they use.

Knowing that 12C27 with a good heat treat can play with the big boys makes me so happy, because I just finished two knives and I have a whole sheet of 14C28n left, and a digital kiln to get the most out of it.


So, is 3V a potentially better steel than 1095?
Yes.
Are you sure that 3V you are paying a premium for is heat treated to maximize it's capabilities?
If not, you could do just as well, or better with 1095.

Go check how cheap knife steel is, it's all about labour, material costs come into the picture once you start using Damasteel, even here in deepest darkest africa I can get M390 for the same price as 14C28n, which is about double the price of same size stock D2 or N690
No Life Club Posts: 4,375 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 01:47:37 PM »
I don't think A2 is a stainless steel.

I do like A2, and have a couple knives made with it. But it's just a tool steel. Seems like it would be nice to work with, since it is an air-hardening steel.
Technically it's not stainless but compared to 1095cv which has .40 to .60, chromium, A2 has 4.75 to 5.50. Kind of a brain fart on my part because I looking at a LT Wright Maverick Scout.  :dd:

No Life Club Posts: 4,375 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 04:22:51 PM »

There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.


I suspect we're talking about this guy. Personally, as a part-time knife maker, I really appreciate his contribution to the knowledge base. Though it doesn't bother me, but I do wish he could get out his message without getting a bug up the smurf of people like you.

The point I'm trying to make is you need to differentiate between custom and production knives.  Steve has joked that Spyderco will send a hitman after him, and as a sprintrun owner I'm not exactly happy to find out they're not getting the most all the steel they use.

Knowing that 12C27 with a good heat treat can play with the big boys makes me so happy, because I just finished two knives and I have a whole sheet of 14C28n left, and a digital kiln to get the most out of it.


So, is 3V a potentially better steel than 1095?
Yes.
Are you sure that 3V you are paying a premium for is heat treated to maximize it's capabilities?
If not, you could do just as well, or better with 1095.

Go check how cheap knife steel is, it's all about labour, material costs come into the picture once you start using Damasteel, even here in deepest darkest africa I can get M390 for the same price as 14C28n, which is about double the price of same size stock D2 or N690

“getting a bug up the smurf of people like you.”
It takes more him to get a bug up my smurf.  :D I just question his methods.

“Knowing that 12C27 with a good heat treat can play with the big boys”
Who are the big boys you are talking about and in what category? Edge retention, wear resistance or toughness? 12C27 is a low carbide (.60) steel, it could run with AUS-8 in edge retention, if the AUS-8 had a bad heat treat. It may be tougher than CPM S90V. It isn't going to run with 154CM, much less one of the newer high carbide, high vanadium steels in edge retention.

I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20°  micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.

“Are you sure that 3V you are paying a premium for is heat treated to maximize it's capabilities?”
I don't consider Crucible's 3V a premium steel so I wouldn't pay a premium for it, regardless of heat treat.
I am sure about what I'm getting before I buy.
If the manufacturer doesn't advertise the steel and heat treat and/or I don't trust the manufacture I don't buy from them. EVER.

The reason I haven't bought that LT Wright I was drooling over is because LT Wright doesn't advertise their heat treat. That is unforgivable in my book.
My purchase will wind up being a 154CM blade from a different maker.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 04:25:06 PM by Dean51 »

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 05:13:11 PM »

I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20°  micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.



My own experience leads me to agree with your conclusions, Dean.

However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?

One can start chasing his or her own tail with these sorts of things.

I've found that some steels, especially well established steels like 1095 and 154CM, work well for many manufacturers. In general I've had good luck with S3V blades, too.

I think it pays to stick with good makers who take their heat treats seriously. I can understand a maker not wanting to reveal his or her heat treat process, especially if that maker feels they have optimized the treatment for a particular knife & steel. Fehrman used to do some amazing things with S3V. We are lucky that in this day and age, a maker's reputation and ability becomes well known, fairly quickly.

LT Wright has a great reputation for a well made knife. I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an S3V knife from him. Although, I find 154CM to be such a great all-around steel, I think that would be an excellent choice, too.  :tu:
No Life Club Posts: 4,375 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 05:41:50 PM »

I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20°  micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.



My own experience leads me to agree with your conclusions, Dean.

However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?

One can start chasing his or her own tail with these sorts of things.

I've found that some steels, especially well established steels like 1095 and 154CM, work well for many manufacturers. In general I've had good luck with S3V blades, too.

I think it pays to stick with good makers who take their heat treats seriously. I can understand a maker not wanting to reveal his or her heat treat process, especially if that maker feels they have optimized the treatment for a particular knife & steel. Fehrman used to do some amazing things with S3V. We are lucky that in this day and age, a maker's reputation and ability becomes well known, fairly quickly.

LT Wright has a great reputation for a well made knife. I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an S3V knife from him. Although, I find 154CM to be such a great all-around steel, I think that would be an excellent choice, too.  :tu:

"However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?"

That is true but Ontario is not famous for taking heat treat to the max so I assume both were a couple points below optimal.
I did the same thing with 1095 and D2, GEC vs Queen both of those steels are a couple points below max heat treat.  The results were similar and 1095 is considered to have better edge retention than AUS8.

The point is a better heat treat can make a steel like AUS8 perform better than 1095. Performance of those steels are not that far apart.
Heat treat can not make AUS8  perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad. Or the test methods would have to be flawed.


Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,715

Nix us

******** * *
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 05:59:26 PM »

Heat treat can not make AUS8  perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad.


 :rofl:   :iagree:


As an aside, I recently got my first knife in S90V, a Spydie Manix 2. So far I like it, but I haven't used it much. I'll be interest to see how it is to sharpen....once it needs it.

I like sharpening.

One of the reasons I don't get hung up on a particular steel (aside from a bit of a steel-crush on 154CM... :dd:) is that I enjoy the sharpening process and keeping a knife sharp. 1095 (with a good heat treat, yes) sharpens easily and well. It takes a great edge. And that makes it fun to work with and use.

Conversely, steels like Maxamet seem almost ridiculous to work with. Which steel would I rather own/use?  Probably a nice 1095 blade. It's something I know I can keep razor sharp.

I don't go cutting tough materials for hours on end. I don't need a knife that can whittle a tree into a toothpick. I'll be home sharpening before that happens. So a tough steel that takes a great edge, but doesn't have the ultimate wear-resistance, is actually more of a 'premium steel' for me. I'm sure that one day a Maxamet blade will find it's way into my pocket, but if all I ever use from now until the big sleep is a 1095 knife, I think I'd still be a happy man.

 :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 4,375 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2019, 07:40:38 PM »

Heat treat can not make AUS8  perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad.


 :rofl:   :iagree:


As an aside, I recently got my first knife in S90V, a Spydie Manix 2. So far I like it, but I haven't used it much. I'll be interest to see how it is to sharpen....once it needs it.

I like sharpening.

One of the reasons I don't get hung up on a particular steel (aside from a bit of a steel-crush on 154CM... :dd:) is that I enjoy the sharpening process and keeping a knife sharp. 1095 (with a good heat treat, yes) sharpens easily and well. It takes a great edge. And that makes it fun to work with and use.

Conversely, steels like Maxamet seem almost ridiculous to work with. Which steel would I rather own/use?  Probably a nice 1095 blade. It's something I know I can keep razor sharp.

I don't go cutting tough materials for hours on end. I don't need a knife that can whittle a tree into a toothpick. I'll be home sharpening before that happens. So a tough steel that takes a great edge, but doesn't have the ultimate wear-resistance, is actually more of a 'premium steel' for me. I'm sure that one day a Maxamet blade will find it's way into my pocket, but if all I ever use from now until the big sleep is a 1095 knife, I think I'd still be a happy man.

 :cheers:

I've never met a steel that was hard to sharpen but I've never met Maxamet.  :whistle:
My wasp Is S90V and it wasn't to bad to sharpen but it was only .012 behind the edge so there wasn't a lot of steel to remove to get the angle I wanted.
I don't know anything about the Spydie Manix but if S90V is thick behind the edge it could be a bear to reprofile. Worse than D2 if you have any experience with that.
 
I have to admit I don't often need S90V but I don't let that stop me.  :D On a traditional knife I would be happy with 154CM, it's an excellent steel for those knives. It's just almost impossible to find 154CM in a traditional.
I enjoy sharpening the new steels, I look at it as another dimension to the hobby.

 


 

Donations

Operational Funds

Help us keep the Unworkable working!
Donate with PayPal!
June Goal: $300.00
Due Date: Jun 30
Total Receipts: $127.00
PayPal Fees: $8.47
Net Balance: $118.53
Below Goal: $181.47
Site Currency: USD
40% 
June Donations

Community Links


Powered by EzPortal
SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.072 seconds with 18 queries.
© 2018 Defender Web & Tool