Old Timer Frustration

[Anka]

I have a Shrade Old Timer 3 blade stockman that was purchased second hand.  The knife was dull and I have recently tried to bring it back into shape for carrying. I was able to get the sheepsfoot to push cut newspaper but the spay and main clip point are making me pull my hair out.  It's as if the edge keeps rolling or braking off.

Spent the better part of 6 hours on this knife over the last two days. Touched up some of my other knifes also and each got near shaving sharp fairly quick. Anyone else ever run into a knife that just would not play nice?


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[AimlessWanderer]

I have a Shrade Old Timer 3 blade stockman that wad purchased second hand.  The knife was dull and I have recently tried to bring it back into shape for carrying. I was able to get the sheepsfoot to push cut newspaper but the spay and main clip point are making me pull my hair out.  It's as if the edge keeps rolling or braking off.

Spent the better part of 6 hours on this knife over the last two days. Touched up some of my other knifes also and each got near shaving sharp fairly quick. Anyone else ever run into a knife that just would not play nice?


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I had a knife a while ago which would not hold an edge. No matter what I did, the edge curled after sharpening. I could get a usable edge on, but 24 hours later, it was dreadful. I think it was internal stresses in the material.

I did finally figure it out before I passed it on. The edge always curled the same way after resting, so I had to sharpen both sides as normal, allow it to rest, then just keep sharpening one edge and allowing it to rest again before it stopped curling. Sadly, once you'd dulled it and went back to sharpening both sides, the issue returned, so I got rid of it.

[Frankki]

I should maybe put on my flame suit before saying this...but I really don't get the 1095 love I see on the forums. I've had lots of knives in many steels and the only one that just won't play ball is "good old" 1095. No matter what I do and try, it just doesn't take the kind of shaving-sharp edge I prefer. Working sharp, yes, but it's never as good as the others steels. Traditional guys love it to the moon and back, and I like traditional knives just fine also, but I'm done with that particular steel. That's too bad, since I'm missing out on pretty much all the GECs and vintage Old Timers, but no can do. 

[Aloha]

My guess would be heat treat.  Next up would be  .  I had one heck of a time getting my Al Mar Aus 8 to behave.  I sent it to a friend and he annihilated the blade sadly on whet stones.  I told him to do whatever he wants as I got it very cheap.  He tried everything then turned to whet stones.  They ate up the blade quickly and removed a lot of material.  Nothing and I repeat NOTHING can be done to this blade to get it sharp.  I wanted to send it in to Al Mar so they could take a look at it but since the blade is in really worn shape  I decided not to.  I really believe it was the heat treat as its still not sharp AT ALL and I've messed with it again . 

Once the wire is formed and then removed you'd be good to go.  However, if the edge just fails to come up and more material is removed then I'm left  , heat treat bad. 

You should be able to get the edge to 30 degree and even 20 degree inclusive with out too much fuss.  I have a Buck Creek from Solingen that is at about 30 degree ( 15 degree per side ) and keeps it edge very well.  Hair, ATM paper, and tomato slicing sharp. 

 

[Aloha]

@ Frankki 1095 is great steel.  The blades I have in 1095 have all been a joy to sharpen and get not only hair popping sharp but a few will easily cut toilet paper with ease.  Some folks just love traditionals and 1095 is a standard for certain traditional knives. 

Now that being said, I wont pay a premium for it 

[Frankki]

@ Frankki 1095 is great steel.  The blades I have in 1095 have all been a joy to sharpen and get not only hair popping sharp but a few will easily cut toilet paper with ease.  Some folks just love traditionals and 1095 is a standard for certain traditional knives. 

Now that being said, I wont pay a premium for it 

Aye, loads of people swear by 1095 and report great results, I just can't replicate those achievements. Freehand or guided, natural stones or ceramics, for me it always gets only "just so" sharp. Entirely possible that I have been spoiled by the modern stainless alloys, but what can I say, my own results have been only adequate. I'll go with stainless, even the lowly 440A, in traditionals these days. More premium alloys always welcome but not widely available unless you go custom.

[Aloha]

Bummer its not behaved well for you.  I would like to see more steels used in traditionals tho I'm sure if I looked hard enough and paid up for a custom I could locate one.    not so sure at that point my pockets could handle the sticker shock  .   

[SteveC]

Is it a made in USA OT or one of the newer Taylor brand ones. ?    All my old Schrade's have great steel on them and are no trouble to get shaving sharp.

[Anka]

Is it a made in USA OT or one of the newer Taylor brand ones. ?    All my old Schrade's have great steel on them and are no trouble to get shaving sharp.

It's a USA one. I might pass it off to a guy at work who is known to work well with his lanky. I figure that would be a good test to see if it is knife or simply me.

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[Dean51]

Bummer its not behaved well for you.  I would like to see more steels used in traditionals tho I'm sure if I looked hard enough and paid up for a custom I could locate one.   not so sure at that point my pockets could handle the sticker shock  .   

Have you looked at the Collectorknives and Lionsteel colaberations.

CK also sells a colab with Maserin called the plow.

[clown]

I have a Shrade Old Timer 3 blade stockman that was purchased second hand.  The knife was dull and I have recently tried to bring it back into shape for carrying. I was able to get the sheepsfoot to push cut newspaper but the spay and main clip point are making me pull my hair out.  It's as if the edge keeps rolling or braking off.

Spent the better part of 6 hours on this knife over the last two days. Touched up some of my other knifes also and each got near shaving sharp fairly quick. Anyone else ever run into a knife that just would not play nice?


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You could try a convex edge with wet/dry sandpaper.  I used this method with my Old Timer and was able to get it razor sharp.  Like scary sharp.  And I'm far far from a sharpening expert.

[Barry Rowland]

I have an Old Timer Stockman that is exactly like that.  I've tried everything I can over the years and still can't get it to hold an edge.  I bought it new many years ago and it's been like that since I got it.  It's sad because it would be perfect to carry in a watch pocket.

[gerleatherberman]

I wonder if someone got a bit happy with a torch at some point and burned off the edge and ruined the heat treat in the blade? Or used a grinder/electric sharpener and overheated the edge?

If not, then the blade is part of a batch that wasn't made and/or treated properly. I have always gotten ole' carbon blade traditionals super sharp with ease. I just don't care for them(for EDC), because the edge corrodes off in my pocket if I don't take care of it.
The only Schrade traditionals I carry are the + versions(stainless). Harder to sharpen, but my no-good lazy knife-ways work better with them.

[Anka]

You could try a convex edge with wet/dry sandpaper.  I used this method with my Old Timer and was able to get it razor sharp.  Like scary sharp.  And I'm far far from a sharpening expert.

I started with the sandpaper and mousepad method.  Never even got close to a workable edge with it although I have used it on many diffe rent knives before.  Moved to free hand on a stone after.



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[Anka]

I have an Old Timer Stockman that is exactly like that.  I've tried everything I can over the years and still can't get it to hold an edge.  I bought it new many years ago and it's been like that since I got it.  It's sad because it would be perfect to carry in a watch pocket.

It really is a shame, the knife is in great shape with a wonderfull natural patina otherwise. I would love to carry it.



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[cody6268]

Try a diamond stone. I had a 106OT give me a lot of grief, and my extra fine DMT pocket sharpener finally got a good edge on it. Seems with me, knives that didn't see much use and have an old factory edge that was never resharpened are a pain to get a good edge on. I've got a Buck 303 that will not get an edge. I think it was actually made by Schrade (before Buck started making the 3XX line in-house); it could very well be a heat treat problem.

[sak60]

"Entirely possible that I have been spoiled by the modern stainless alloys, but what can I say, my own results have been only adequate. I'll go with stainless, even the lowly 440A, in traditionals these days"

I would have thought it would be the other way around.

Have you tried different grits/angles? I've read that using coarser grits than you would normally associate with a fine edge then going straight to a strop works for some.(toothy)  Personally all the Schrade's and any other 1095 that I've had have resulted in a good edge.

You could try to pick up another cheap 2nd hand schrade 1095 and see if you can get it sharp. If so then the heat treat as mentioned may be the problem.

[Aloha]

After reading some of the comments and thinking about my 1095 blades, I think the heat treat could very well be the issue.  Not necessarily from the factory but who knows?  The previous owner could have some how done something since the main blade is part of the issue  . 

I do like the idea of convexing the blade.  My Cased Sod Buster Jr came to me with a convexed blade and was very sharp.  I later reprofiled it to 15dps.  Its wicked and stays sharp.

I do hope you sort this out.  I also want to add that I am a big fan of stropping and checkin the edge with a loop.  It could be that the edge isn't apexed prior to moving to the other side?  Could be some rounding if you are stropping?  Could be the wire is just pushed to one side after the initial sharpening? 

Just thinking out loud.      

 

[sak60]

+1 on the loupe. I use one often to get a close look at what’s going on with the edge. (and my close vision is rubbish these days).

[Frankki]

"Entirely possible that I have been spoiled by the modern stainless alloys, but what can I say, my own results have been only adequate. I'll go with stainless, even the lowly 440A, in traditionals these days"

I would have thought it would be the other way around.

Have you tried different grits/angles? I've read that using coarser grits than you would normally associate with a fine edge then going straight to a strop works for some.(toothy)  Personally all the Schrade's and any other 1095 that I've had have resulted in a good edge.

You could try to pick up another cheap 2nd hand schrade 1095 and see if you can get it sharp. If so then the heat treat as mentioned may be the problem.

Actually, come to think of it, I may have proven myself wrong already. I remembered that I actually do have one knife in 1095, the sharpness of which I'm pleased with: an Ulster 10OT from the 1960s, also belonging to the Schrade cutlery family. Previously I had tried other Schrades, a Queen-made Bulldog and a couple of Camillus knives - never a good enough edge. The little Ulster barlow somehow managed to surprise me! 

[sak60]

Actually, come to think of it, I may have proven myself wrong already. I remembered that I actually do have one knife in 1095, the sharpness of which I'm pleased with: an Ulster 10OT from the 1960s, also belonging to the Schrade cutlery family. Previously I had tried other Schrades, a Queen-made Bulldog and a couple of Camillus knives - never a good enough edge. The little Ulster barlow somehow managed to surprise me! 

I have an Ulster Boy Scout knife and it gets really sharp.

[Spartan19]

No worries bro, you're not alone. I've had nothing but trouble with these myerchins they've issued to us. I have guys come up to me all the time asking to sharpen their blade for them. No matter what you do it'll be hair shaving sharp when you're done, and dull as a butterknife right after you use it next.  Plus the bearings on all of then get loose rather quickly

[Anka]

After reading some of the comments and thinking about my 1095 blades, I think the heat treat could very well be the issue.  Not necessarily from the factory but who knows?  The previous owner could have some how done something since the main blade is part of the issue  . 

I do like the idea of convexing the blade.  My Cased Sod Buster Jr came to me with a convexed blade and was very sharp.  I later reprofiled it to 15dps.  Its wicked and stays sharp.

I do hope you sort this out.  I also want to add that I am a big fan of stropping and checkin the edge with a loop.  It could be that the edge isn't apexed prior to moving to the other side?  Could be some rounding if you are stropping?  Could be the wire is just pushed to one side after the initial sharpening? 

Just thinking out loud.      

Sak60, this is for you also. What magnification loupe do you recommend? I have been thinking about picking one up. 

I have done well with most of my knives with just a mouse pad and 1200grit paper.  I really need to go pick up a 600 grit though.  But honestly I haven't yet achieved shaving sharp with the mouse pad/ sand paper.  Have gotten much closer free hand with a small stone.  I also don't have a real strip yet but I am planning to get a small piece of 2×4 at work and affix some denim to it to make my own. Already have some green compound

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[sak60]

Hi Anka, I can only say that the loupe that I use is 10X and is designed for geology use originally I think and find it quite powerful enough to see different grind angles, if the apex has any spots that are missed, and even see the individual scouring marks left by the stone. A strop will really benefit you. I made mine with some scrap wood and leftover leather from sheath making.
I have never used a mouse pad so can’t comment on that. If I use the strop method for a convex blade I just lay the wet and dry paper over my strop and use that. My thinking is the angle of sharpening and stropping is easily maintained.
I have wet and dry grits from 400 up to 2000 with 600 to 1200 the most used.

[Aloha]

I use my Explorer with grey magnifying glass.  I also have a eye piece from an old binoculars.  I believe the magnification on the Explorer is 8x and the eye piece from binos is same. 

I used an old leather belt for my strop affixed to some scrap lumber.  I also use some cheap compound from a DIY store.  The black and white are really good in my use the green is not much of a cutter but will polish well.  I also use some diamond but not as often as I thought I would.  Plain old leather also is great. 

I like the Lansky guided system.  I do use whetstones but only when near perfect matching bevels aren't as important to me on the knife I'm working on.  I'll also use the stones to convex a blade. 

I also have the Spyderco sharpmaker.  Most of my maintenance is done with strops.  I only ever go beyond that when damage has occurred.       

[Anka]

I have the sharpmaker also but honestly have enjoyed just using the triangle stones free hand.  I definitely need to get my stropping game down. Don't have a old belt handy so I would have to swing by a good will.

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[SteveC]

The Lansky turnbox is an inexpensive system that I've found to work really well on all but the most dull blades.

One little tip I learned is to pull the blade through a piece of hardwood mid sharpening. I use a thin scrap of oak. It effectively de-burrs the edge and allows me to get a much sharper edge on the final few strokes on the ceramic rods.

[Spartan19]

I have the sharpmaker also but honestly have enjoyed just using the triangle stones free hand.  I definitely need to get my stropping game down. Don't have a old belt handy so I would have to swing by a good will.

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[/quote


I have always used my jeans for a strip, and found they work as well as any strop

[Anka]

Alright gents, we are victorious.  I failed to mention earlier that I bought an apex pro system about 4 to 5 years back. Lost track of it in a move about 2 years ago.  Went digging today and located it.

Was able to get the main blade just shy of shaving. It can cleanly slice white lined paper.  While I had the system out I touched up the mora 1 which is my most used kitchen knife and I reprofiled the rescued Barlow which had a notch in the blade about 1/6 inch in from the tip. 

I ended up using a piece of denim as a strop for final touches.

I did lose my 120 grit stone however when it fell off its backing during the reprofiling.

Pictures of the knives, equipment, and ever growing paper shred piles attached.
 

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[SteveC]

Yay !