I was wrong....

[David Bowen]

When there was buzz about the Pockettoolx Piranha coming out I was excited because it offered to folks a venue which they could purchase an Atwood style pocket tool without the hassle of Lotteries. When there was talk about how folks (like GG) were quite ticked about how MK7 tool ideas/designs from Peter I had different thoughts. I thought, it's a free world and everyone can do what they want. It's hard to come up with NEW pocket tool ideas without treading on the toes of someone else and call it a NEW design. Alot of what is out there now is just rehashes of old products with a new twist, I consider the Piranha that.  I do applaud the folks at MK7 for being able to make a tool better than the Artifact and at a fairly reasonable price point. None of my thoughts on that have changed, it's still a great pocket tool in it's own right and that is the reason it has not left my left pocket for months on end. What has changed is how I feel about the so called "intellectual rights" that Peter has to his designs and how the folks out there can say that their tool was in NO WAY inspired by Peter's designs. Peter is a great guy and I know how hurt he is about folks like that, he and I have spoke about it here and there. I have acquired a WingNut from Mercury here on the forum and I must say it has changed a great deal of my opinion. The two tools are so similar it's scary and I can see where MK7 got the idea for their Piranha and where it was "influenced". Included are two pictures which show what I mean. Yes the WingNut has it's own "Atwood flair" but look past the exterior and look at the features, SAME wrench sizes on both ends. Yes I think the Piranha sports a slightly more thought out design with more features but that is it. I do think MK7 went a little too close to home so to speak on saying Peter has in no way spark their creativity.

Anyways, draw your own conclusions and yes John..... You were right, I am sorry 

[ryan1835]

well would would another tool with open and closed end wrenches look like? They'd always look similar. I can see where your comming from but its not a straight rip off.

[David Bowen]

The thing is (that I know of) there IS no other pocket tool out there with an open and boxed end on the same tool. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Nikos]

I believe this has been discussed before and it never turned out well...

Anyway, just for the sake of discussion, there were other tools with a boxed end way before Peter came out with his. Does that make him a copycat? Alternatively, I know of no tools with a plier head folding into its handles preceding Tim Leatherman's first contraption; does this make all other modern plier-based MT manufacturers copy cats? Nope sir, it doesn't. That said, if I were in Peter's shoes and saw MK7 coming out with such a similar design while giving no credit to my work, I'd surely be peeved off...

[ryan1835]

maybe he should have patented the design....

just the way the world is unfortunatly

[David Bowen]

Yes boxed and open ended wrenches have been around but the whole non cheap, custom quality thing is eerily similar. Sorry if it did not turn out well before, just wanted to make myself known and what I thought. I was a big supporter of MK7 and now my thoughts are changing, just wanted some stuff to back up why I feel that way.

[jzmtl]

I think there's no doubt that one was inspired by another, the real question is does using an element on your product give one exclusive right to it, which I don't believe so.

[Mr. Whippy]

Unfortunately, without a patent, Peter is pretty much at the mercy of others.  He does have his niche, but it will continue to be hard for him to retain his popular designs without legal (patent) protection.

As for PocketoolX, well, if they make a quality product, then at least they're respecting the lineage. (Unlike Schrade).

[Gadget Guy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

[jzmtl]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

[Gadget Guy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

Let me ask you a question. If you designed the Atwood tool how would you feel? 

[Mr. Whippy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

That's the point.  Unless you're going to boycott SwissTools and Spirits, I think it's a little disingenuous.  I really like Atwood tools (and all the one piece makers), but without patent protection, the rules are set to allow others to copy.

I don't see how you can selectively play this...

(btw, I don't own a PockeToolX tool, mostly because I like my Atwoods, and if I need more, I go to socket sets--but if they're playing by the rules, they're playing fair...)

[Mr. Whippy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

Let me ask you a question. If you designed the Atwood tool how would you feel? 

Well, I wouldn't like it, but I'd realize that I didn't protect my work.  I'd change that pronto.

[Benner]

Contructive thoughts have been shared in this thread so far - well done all.  Lets please see this continue.

[Gadget Guy]

Why is it every time I post in a thread like this I see a Moderator?   

[Gadget Guy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

Let me ask you a question. If you designed the Atwood tool how would you feel? 

Well, I wouldn't like it, but I'd realize that I didn't protect my work.  I'd change that pronto.

Peter did in fact patent the original Prybaby design but that didn't stop Gerber.

[Mr. Whippy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

Let me ask you a question. If you designed the Atwood tool how would you feel? 

Well, I wouldn't like it, but I'd realize that I didn't protect my work.  I'd change that pronto.

Peter did in fact patent the original Prybaby design but that didn't stop Gerber.

Wow.  That does suck.  (You're referring to the Shard yes?)

[Mr. Whippy]

Well,

Let me modify that a bit...

It sucks for the creative innovator.

I know in the climbing world that one company/person comes up with a new, unique and awesome piece of gear, every company comes out with their version of the same shortly thereafter.  Some are better, some are worse, but as a climber, it is a good thing for me.

Maybe not so clear in the one piece tool realm.

[Gadget Guy]

Man... your guys comments just make me sad.    I hate to see the future of our country or the world for that matter.   

I think you are letting your personal feeling toward atwood cloud your judgement. Let's say if you are in charge, how far off would the design be before you'd allowed it to be produced?

Let me ask you a question. If you designed the Atwood tool how would you feel? 

Well, I wouldn't like it, but I'd realize that I didn't protect my work.  I'd change that pronto.

Peter did in fact patent the original Prybaby design but that didn't stop Gerber.

Wow.  That does suck.  (You're referring to the Shard yes?)

I think the Artifact  is more of a direct copy then the Shard. Gerber basically took a old skool xl Prybaby and added a X-Acto blade to it.


You be the judge:

[ryan1835]

:O that s literally the same if gerber wasn't a worldwide company peters patent might stand a chance for a lawsuit

[Gadget Guy]

:O that s literally the same if gerber wasn't a worldwide company peters patent might stand a chance for a lawsuit

So does that make it right to rip-off Mr. Atwood?    See where I'm coming from.   

[Nikos]

I think the Artifact  is more of a direct copy then the Shard. Gerber basically took a old skool xl Prybaby and added a X-Acto blade to it.


You be the judge:


(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Just to be totally precise, Gerber added an XActo blade, phillips screwdriver (instead of the flathead), and a bottle opener that doubles as a 1/4'' bit drive in a pinch, made it out of non-premium stainless steel, and retailed it for much less and much more readily than mr. Atwood...

[ryan1835]

:O that s literally the same if gerber wasn't a worldwide company peters patent might stand a chance for a lawsuit

So does that make it right to rip-off Mr. Atwood?    See where I'm coming from.   

i sort of in the middle i see your point, but i dont have an atwood. If i did then i might be a bit more for it. But i also like seeing a one piece tool in my price range 

[John]

I'm not 100% sure on this but I think it would be very difficult to get a patent for a pry bar tool 

[ryan1835]

he might have patented the idea of a mini pry bar with a bottle opener or something similar

[John]

he might have patented the idea of a mini pry bar with a bottle opener or something similar

Ah! gotya thanks Ryan 

[Zack]

Or what about this.  Did Mr. Emerson steal an idea from Victorinox?

http://www.emersonknives.com/ekEmersonShow.php

Scroll down for Custom CQC6 with tweezers.

[jzmtl]

Let me ask you a question. If you designed the Atwood tool how would you feel? 

I'm not a designer, so I can't really say

That's the point.  Unless you're going to boycott SwissTools and Spirits, I think it's a little disingenuous.  I really like Atwood tools (and all the one piece makers), but without patent protection, the rules are set to allow others to copy.

I don't see how you can selectively play this...

(btw, I don't own a PockeToolX tool, mostly because I like my Atwoods, and if I need more, I go to socket sets--but if they're playing by the rules, they're playing fair...)

While Peter can copyright his exact tool pattern, I don't think he can copyright/patent the individual element because he didn't invent any of them. The wrench/opener/prybar design are older than probably all of us on the forum, he just combined them into one tool.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I think before we go much further with this discussion, I'd like to review the patent for the Prybaby and see what exactly it covers.  Otherwise, I can't really comment intelligently on what can or cannot be considered a copy.  I'll admit, that even without any solid evidence, that there is definitely a similarity in concept but that really only means that Atwood was onto something with the basic design.

You also need to look at it from the other point of view- whether PocketToolX or Gerber did or did not infringe on Atwood's patents (and without seeing the patent I can't comment on that one way or the other), Gerber is making the tool for the mass market, which is something Peter never has.  That doesn't excuse any potential infringements, but I see no reason why Peter couldn't have made his limited run for collectors, then contracted another agency like CRKT to crank out a production version.  Many makers have done something like that, and history has proven that a production version of the "original" can stamp out the copies quite effectively.

If Peter really wanted to take a shot back at these guys, then he could do that- I'm sure any number of companies would love to have an Atwood collaboration.

Def

[ryan1835]

and i for one would be willing to see that happen!