What do you consider "rare"?

[jazzbass]

Just curious -

Lots of people throw around the term "rare" with SAKs. The usage of the word tends to run the spectrum from accurate (most users here) to meaningless (eBay ads where everything is both "vintage" and "rare", including a Spartan made last year).

So what do you consider to be rare? Now, I'm not really talking about what SAK model is considered to be rare. Rather, how infrequently does something have to be sold to be considered rare? If a particular model can be found on eBay average of once a month -  is that rare? Once every two months? Once a year?

[MARIOS7319]

If we examine the definition of the rare model from the aspect of the frequency of appearance, then for me a rare model is a model that appear for sell one or two times in a year.
As for the very rare is the model that you see for selling once in couple of years, or even not at all.

Also a rare model in my opinion is got to do also with the condition of the knife.
If a model  is in moderate or bad condition every time you see it for sell, and only once in the year you find it in very good condition, this is a rare one. (this happens the most of the time to the old models )

[Syph007]

Somewhere in the area of up for purchase once a year feels about right to me.  As in... they can be had, but RARELY, and you have to be patient. 

Now it also feels like value ties in, even though you only asked about frequency.  As in, if it came up once year and went for a premium price that feels rare to me.  Lots of things are infrequently posted, but also might not be desirable or command a premium price.

The example to me that's probably even rarer than my definition of rare is the sea pioneer 2223.  Ive never seen one for sale.

[jazzbass]

. 
Now it also feels like value ties in, even though you only asked about frequency.  As in, if it came up once year and went for a premium price that feels rare to me.  Lots of things are infrequently posted, but also might not be desirable or command a premium price.

this really gets to the point of the question  - the combining of "rare" and "desirable". I think most people misuse the term "rare" as meaning "how much is it worth" instead of its actual meaning of "how hard is this to find".

It's an interesting phenomenon through which something can be "rare" simply because someone says enough times that it's "rare". For example - someone posts here a couple times that Victorinox 91mm "FooBar" is a very rare model. Since there are no manufacturing or sales figures readily available, what happens is that many people go with the old "if its on the Internet, it must be true" philosophy. Once a month or so a FooBar pops up on eBay, leading to bidders to bid it up to $100 or more. "It's rare! I have to get this one otherwise I don't know when there'll be another". Now, FooBars sell for $100. People expect them to be $100 knives, and since "rare" = "desirable", it becomes accepted as fact that it is "rare" - despite the fact that you can buy one once every month or so.

[AimlessWanderer]

Rare? Common sense and civil decency 

Thankfully this forum has them in abundance 

As for SAKs ... wouldn't have a clue  To be honest I've managed to find virtually everything I want through this forum over the last two years ... and the only other SAKs I'd consider now are cost prohibitive (considering I buy to use) so it's less about how long things take to turn up, and more about how much people want for them when they do.

Rarity in this sense also means the regularity of a sale, not how many are out there - there could be tens of thousands of Voyageurs sat out there at the back of drawers ... but how many of their owners know what they have or would think it's worth selling .... 

[Tyler_]

To the OP jazzbass, Do you still have those charts showing the ebay Soldier prices, number sold etc..  I remember seeing it, it was very good info

[Mr. Whippy]

To me, it's a combination of low numbers available compared to demand AND age.

If something is limited in production but was produced just a couple years ago, that's a limited edition, not so much rare.

If it's low in numbers and old, but no one is really looking for it, it's an oddity (to me).

That's just me, though

[nuphoria]

To me, it's a combination of low numbers available compared to demand AND age.

If something is limited in production but was produced just a couple years ago, that's a limited edition, not so much rare.

If it's low in numbers and old, but no one is really looking for it, it's an oddity (to me).

That's just me, though

I'd pretty much agree with that. If something is unobtanium it's price goes off the chart for collectors!

[ColoSwiss]

Here's a crib sheet I made for my brother as a general guide to what's valuable in my collection. Figure he'll end up with it after I'm gone, and he might as well get as much out of it as possible. Would appreciate comment for changes.

[rmagralha]

Here's a crib sheet I made for my brother as a general guide to what's valuable in my collection. Figure he'll end up with it after I'm gone, and he might as well get as much out of it as possible. Would appreciate comment for changes.

Interesting guide! I think I'm getting more knowledgable than I thought, some of your comments were what I had in mind....

[KTesh]

More red in the middle than pink... 

   

Dang!  Now I'm Hungry.

[condcup]

Discontinued, hard to find, limited production...rare nos, vintage...

[Heinz Doofenshmirtz]

Anything I can't afford.   

[jazzbass]

Interesting getting thoughts on this. I agree with this in particular:

To me, it's a combination of low numbers available compared to demand AND age.

So obviously something has to be hard to find AND valuable to be "rare", but that leads back to the original question - define "hard to find" (which I think only Syph007 answered):

how infrequently does something have to be sold to be considered rare? If a particular model can be found on eBay average of once a month -  is that rare? Once every two months? Once a year?

Just curious because I see statements all the time like "anything with 84mm scissors is rare". I looked and since 2009 knives with 84mm scissors show up almost 3 times a week on eBay. That's not a LOT, to be sure, but IMO is a bit to common to be called "rare". Since most people here (myself included) watch eBay quite a bit, I'm sure others have noticed that some knives (like 84mm Golfers and small Climbers) show up regularly. 

The Technician Plus for sale on EDC source and the Voyageur post recently got me thinking about this. That Technician Plus is only the fourth one of those I've ever seen for sale in 3 years. That, to me, is most definitely "rare".

Rare = one a month? one a week? One a year?

[condcup]

Jazzbass, let's talk serious please name your top 10 rare SAKs, "hard to find".

Just curious -

Lots of people throw around the term "rare" with SAKs. The usage of the word tends to run the spectrum from accurate (most users here) to meaningless (eBay ads where everything is both "vintage" and "rare", including a Spartan made last year).

So what do you consider to be rare? Now, I'm not really talking about what SAK model is considered to be rare. Rather, how infrequently does something have to be sold to be considered rare? If a particular model can be found on eBay average of once a month -  is that rare? Once every two months? Once a year?

[ColoSwiss]

Jazzbass,

You're probably the only one here with the level of data to consider such a precise definition. The rest of us have to make do with a more general sense of 'rarity', based on our own experiences and observations while collecting SAKs over varying lengths of time. Fool proof? No, but I expect there would be a considerable amount of agreement among long-time collectors as to which models and/or features are most desirable. Regardless, I think most people here appreciate your efforts to more precisely quantify SAK information. I certainly find them interesting. On the other hand I don't have your tables available when making a bid on ebay, and have to rely on my own judgement. I'm frequently wrong as to what something will go for, but that's the nature of the marketplace.

 Karl

[condcup]

Jazzbass, let's talk serious please name your top 10 rare SAKs, "hard to find".

Just curious...

[jazzbass]

Jazzbass, let's talk serious please name your top 10 rare SAKs, "hard to find".

Serious business SAK collecting 

I realized after the last post that I didn't give my two cents - to me, rare is something that shows up < 4 times a year. Extremely rare is once a year or less. Top 10? That's a good question. Here's what I can think of off the top of my head:

- SwissChamp XL
- Artisan w/ Long Nail File
- 91mm Waiter (1940s crab claw style)
- 91mm Lumberjack (original with corkscrew, not the +B version)
- Pioneer 2223
- Technician Plus
- Master Fisherman
- Fisherman Plus (Fisherman w/ Saw)
- Hoffritz Limited Edition (91mm)
- Apollo 11 Craftsman

[condcup]

 

[McChouffe]

Jazzbass: Walther, Zürich Fireman, KLU Master Craftsman, KM87, Swiss Railway Soldier??

[McChouffe]

Jazzbass: Walther, Zürich Fireman, KLU Master Craftsman, KM87, Swiss Railway Soldier??

1-
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-
7-
8-
9-
10-

...

[ColoSwiss]

Another take on "rare".

1. - 1891 Soldier
2. - #240 'Cure-pied' hoof pick tool (c.a. 1903)
3. - #238 7-blade fiber with shot-shell extractor (c.a. 1903)
4. - #1/33 Farmers with sacking needle and stag handles (c.a. 1942)
5. - #1/26 Farmers with sacking needle and phlem blade (for bleeding animals)

The really rare knives are pre-WWII, and in many cases pre-WWI. They are rare in Europe and were never imported into this country. Of the ones listed above I recall seeing one 1891 Soldier, which went for over $800 IIRC.

http://e-webtechnologies.com/sak/Victorinox_1903_Catalog.pdf

[Wootz]

....
- SwissChamp XL
- Artisan w/ Long Nail File
- 91mm Waiter (1940s crab claw style)
- 91mm Lumberjack (original with corkscrew, not the +B version)
- Pioneer 2223
- Technician Plus
- Master Fisherman
- Fisherman Plus (Fisherman w/ Saw)
- Hoffritz Limited Edition (91mm)
- Apollo 11 Craftsman

Limited Edition? Never heard of it. Hmm..could it be I have one?
It has exposed rivets, bail, no T&T, Hoffritz stamp, scissors,
old style phillips and awl on the back. Very nice condition too!

[Wootz]

Jazzbass: Walther, Zürich Fireman, KLU Master Craftsman, KM87, Swiss Railway Soldier??

There's also a rare KLu alox version (like the KL and KM).

[McChouffe]

....
- SwissChamp XL
- Artisan w/ Long Nail File
- 91mm Waiter (1940s crab claw style)
- 91mm Lumberjack (original with corkscrew, not the +B version)
- Pioneer 2223
- Technician Plus
- Master Fisherman
- Fisherman Plus (Fisherman w/ Saw)
- Hoffritz Limited Edition (91mm)
- Apollo 11 Craftsman

Jazzbass, any ideas when was the last Apollo 11 Craftsman sold, value?

[ICanFixThat]

....
...
- Hoffritz Limited Edition (91mm)
...

Limited Edition? Never heard of it. Hmm..could it be I have one?
It has exposed rivets, bail, no T&T, Hoffritz stamp, scissors,
old style phillips and awl on the back. Very nice condition too!

I think he was refering to the ones that have it printed on the scales and they have a serial number, I'm sure you would know if you have it.  The ambiguity is that there is more than 1 'limited edition' 91mm, so it's not clear exactly.

[kkokkolis]

Aknowledging I am not a collector but still very fond of SAKs (I just don't need more than a dozen) I consider rare:

1. A Soldier's SAK from WWI or WWII. Better: the SAK of the very Henri Guisan himself
2. The SAK that was used for tracheotomy during that flight
3. The last SAK that was accepted on board of an airplane during 9/11
4. The first SAK that went on top of Mt Everest
5. The first SAK in orbit
6. A SAK used by a Rock idol for suicide
7. The last SAK to get out of the Delemont factory with a Wenger logo on it
8. etc. You get the point and can fill the rest of the list. I am talking about "Hero" and "History" SAKs

[ICanFixThat]

While those SAKs are indeed rare, by strick definition they are not rare because they are singular, and the sigularity is based on arbitrary external attributes which have been deemed significant.

I believe those SAKs are very collectible because they are, better described as, SAKs of Significance rather than rare SAKs.  It might be pedandic, but classification is important.

[kkokkolis]

OK! If you find one, don't buy it. 

[AdmSlc]

Good thread!!