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One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...

fr Offline hellsing

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #60 on: January 14, 2015, 12:34:32 PM
We need a cobra pliers based multitool for small hand people. And I also look for a small knipex, but damn they are so expensive here...
Another way is to have handle with a very small angle when pliers are closed, reducing the angle when they are at full opening.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 12:36:55 PM by hellsing »


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #61 on: January 14, 2015, 01:17:51 PM
:pok:
(Image removed from quote.)

http://www.amazon.com/Morris-Costumes-741545002967-Finger-Extensions/dp/B0052U4XMO

 :D :D

You're using your pliers wrong. You'll get much better leverage and a more controllable grip if you slip your pinky off the handles entirely and use just your index, middle, and ring fingers, but as close to the ends of the handles as possible. Use the plier handles as a lever to gain maximum mechanical advantage and remember that a little extra lever length is much more useful than your pinky being in the most advantageous position.

This has actually given me an idea for an additional comparison which factors in both our standpoints ... I'll think through how best to approach it ...


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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #62 on: January 14, 2015, 01:19:56 PM
We need a cobra pliers based multitool for small hand people. And I also look for a small knipex, but damn they are so expensive here...
Another way is to have handle with a very small angle when pliers are closed, reducing the angle when they are at full opening.

They're expensive here too ...

One thing you have to be careful of when the pliers are closed is avoiding a pinch hazard like on the original Gerber multipliers. They hurt!!!


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de Offline Lichtbote

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #63 on: January 14, 2015, 01:29:45 PM
and that's with size 9 hands. People with smaller hands would find them even worse.

No, i don´t (size 8.5).

But one reason might be that i see no need to grip such big stuff, for those kind of work tools are existing that suit better than any MT.
Have fun.

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Michael


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #64 on: January 14, 2015, 01:46:13 PM
and that's with size 9 hands. People with smaller hands would find them even worse.

No, i don´t (size 8.5).

But one reason might be that i see no need to grip such big stuff, for those kind of work tools are existing that suit better than any MT.

Fair point :salute:

When gripping smaller items, the mechanics of the situation would be different (easier for the user), though I would counter the "better work tools" arguement by suggesting that the reason for a multitool is when there is no access (or no convenient access) to such tools. I too generally have to grip smaller workpieces, but there are times when my pliers need to be used at a fuller capacity. If I was never gripping anything bigger than 1/4" or 6mm, then I wouldn't have to consider such big tools in the first place.

Case in point ... most peple consider the Wenger 130mm pliers to be underrated for their needs, and indeed they were unable to grip the lighter at all. I actually took these pics at the same time, but had no need to post them before as they didn't help the conversation


Wenger Rangergrip 90

This is a tool with smaller pliers and yet larger knife/saw etc, but again people don't see these pliers as being big enough. With more plier capacity, that is where this problem of ergonomics occurs most


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cy Offline dks

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #65 on: January 14, 2015, 01:50:28 PM
 :think:  Have you considered something like a Schrade Vise-grip ?
 ??? 
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #66 on: January 14, 2015, 02:00:38 PM
:think:  Have you considered something like a Schrade Vise-grip ?
 ???

 :tu:

The locking pliers (Schrade Vise Grips, Crunch, Grappler) do all negate this problem by virtue of their adjustment ... which is why I haven't included them in this comparison.  :salute:

I currently own the Grappler and the 6LC. Neither of them get much use, but both can be very useful when certain jobs arise (the 6LC moreso on larger workpieces) ... assuming you have access to them at the time. For general carry and use, standard pliers are more useful/diverse/capable for the types of scenario I am liable to encounter  :cheers:


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cy Offline dks

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #67 on: January 14, 2015, 02:03:21 PM
Well, I may have to get one, one of these days....
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scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #68 on: January 14, 2015, 02:32:14 PM
Al, what a great thread.  This is a point I've made a couple of times over the years, but never so well explained and pictured.  You mention the PST being less of a problem in this regard and I agree, I'd also like to add that the original Supertool and the Pulse I find to be better than that later models.  IIRC the original Wave is also the same, but I don't have one to try out and be sure.
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us Offline ToolJoe

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #69 on: January 14, 2015, 08:00:55 PM
We need a cobra pliers based multitool for small hand people. And I also look for a small knipex, but damn they are so expensive here...
Another way is to have handle with a very small angle when pliers are closed, reducing the angle when they are at full opening.

They're expensive here too ...

One thing you have to be careful of when the pliers are closed is avoiding a pinch hazard like on the original Gerber multipliers. They hurt!!!

Have you checked out the Knipex Alligator Pliers? They might be a little cheaper than the Cobras.
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #70 on: January 14, 2015, 08:05:03 PM
Al, what a great thread.  This is a point I've made a couple of times over the years, but never so well explained and pictured.  You mention the PST being less of a problem in this regard and I agree, I'd also like to add that the original Supertool and the Pulse I find to be better than that later models.  IIRC the original Wave is also the same, but I don't have one to try out and be sure.

Thanks Gareth  :cheers:

If you want to, feel free to post a piccy of you holding any one of the tools I've shown (for calibration) and then piccies of the Pulse and Supertool/ST200. I don't have those tools to "catalogue" here, but I believe you still do  ;)

Same goes for anyone else wanting to add comparative pics for future reference  :cheers:
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 08:08:02 PM by 50ft-trad »


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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #71 on: January 14, 2015, 08:06:37 PM
We need a cobra pliers based multitool for small hand people. And I also look for a small knipex, but damn they are so expensive here...
Another way is to have handle with a very small angle when pliers are closed, reducing the angle when they are at full opening.

They're expensive here too ...

One thing you have to be careful of when the pliers are closed is avoiding a pinch hazard like on the original Gerber multipliers. They hurt!!!

Have you checked out the Knipex Alligator Pliers? They might be a little cheaper than the Cobras.

They were Knipex pliers that I was looking at, Joe. At the moment I have no need to be spending extra money anyway  :P so I might have another look at them in a month or two  :cheers:


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us Offline Yalius

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #72 on: January 16, 2015, 02:07:48 AM
Try like this. 3/4" (19mm) diameter-- your longer, stronger fingers will have more leverage and will be more comfortable than stretching your pinky all the way to the end-- stronger grip and more comfortable at once.
IMG_0180.JPG
* IMG_0180.JPG (Filesize: 154.93 KB)


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #73 on: January 16, 2015, 04:17:47 AM
Try like this. 3/4" (19mm) diameter-- your longer, stronger fingers will have more leverage and will be more comfortable than stretching your pinky all the way to the end-- stronger grip and more comfortable at once.

As I said earlier, I always adjust my grip to suit the job at hand and gain the most control and mechanical advantage. I only took the pictures as uniformly as I did so that it was clear for the viewer what the differences were between the tools.  :salute:

It might be that the grip you showed there might work with some tools in some situations, but try that with a Swisstool (or many other tools) in an oil rich environment, and the next thing you'll be doing is walking across the room to fetch it after it shoots out of your hand like wet soap :D In fact I just tried to see if I could actually get the span to do this with a Swisstool, and I would have absolutely no control or power with the handle splay generated by having that lighter in the jaws.

Different tools, different jobs, different environments, all require different approaches to the tools. My point with this thread is that my options with one of the Gerber's would be better than with one of the Leatherman's or the Powerlock, or even the Swisstool. This is purely due to the fact I can get better grips, and indeed different types of grip, because the handles offer better ergonomics. Lots of attention is often paid to whether a knife is inboard or outboard, OHO or 2HO, how well drivers grip and what reach they have, but for me (and it appears others too) the ergos of the pliers are a real factor in whether a tool works well for me or not  :cheers:
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 05:06:57 AM by 50ft-trad »


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us Offline Marcellus

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #74 on: January 18, 2015, 09:07:40 PM
OP

Excellent commentary, thanks for taking the time to post w/ pictures

You really pointed out a "pro" for the Gerber MP


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #75 on: January 18, 2015, 11:31:53 PM
OP

Excellent commentary, thanks for taking the time to post w/ pictures

You really pointed out a "pro" for the Gerber MP

Thank you  :cheers: I appreciate the comment  :salute:


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gb Offline Cupboard

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #76 on: January 19, 2015, 08:05:39 PM
Thanks for this thread  :cheers:
Worryingly, I do find myself agreeing with almost everything you've said, I'm sure that's not supposed to happen   >:D

It's a problem I suffer form too, and one of the few things I realy like about the MP600. It's larger than a Wave but I can actually grip it, where I can't carry a Core (which IIRC from the meet is the worst Leatherman for it) because it's so wide.

The problem with the sliding pliers is that you can't open them out inline for use as a screwdriver and as such need a huge amount of clearance round the screw head. I rarely use the screwdrivers with the handles folded up in the form you store the tool it, it's almost always with the scrwdriver out at the end of a handle, the plier head folded in to the other end handle and my hand gripping the handle with the pliers in.

I do wonder how hard it would b to modify a Leatherman (or anything else with butterfly pliers) to reduce the span needed. I think it would just be a simple case of filing down the plier back stop in the handles, though on a Wave/Charge that would weaken the area because there isn't much meat there as a result of the blade lock.

Maybe I'll do that one evening once I've got my house back together and I'm not playing with something with wheels  :rofl:


us Offline Kampfer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #77 on: January 19, 2015, 08:20:55 PM
Wonderful insights AL,
Here are are my inputs:
Nothing is perfect for every job, MT are designed to handle daily small tasks IMO. For bigger jobs, one should use dedicated tools if possible.
The MT you mention they do fall short when they are used to bite on large objects, but I think they are fine for deal with smaller objects like small nuts, cutting small wires. I am not a plumber and the only time I had such trouble was when I change a shower head in my house, none of my MT has pliers that open wide enough to grip on the pipe except Surge, the like you said, its handles spread way too wide for me to use it one hand. It got the job done, but clearly shown Surge wasn't designed for such task.   
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gb Offline tosh

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #78 on: January 19, 2015, 09:59:15 PM
Having just read this entire thread in one sitting, I must say you've really explained your arguments in a very logical way Al  :tu:

Having now seen your point of view it makes me wonder just what parameters leathermans designers opt for when designing new models.  Because it certainly doesn't look like they're designed that well TBH.

Here in the UK leathermans are ridiculously expensive considering that they are a compromise to "Real" tools.

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #79 on: January 20, 2015, 01:25:32 AM
Thanks chaps  :cheers:

Thanks for this thread  :cheers:
Worryingly, I do find myself agreeing with almost everything you've said, I'm sure that's not supposed to happen   >:D

If it's any consolation, it's as worrying for me as it is for you  :P :D

The problem with the sliding pliers is that you can't open them out inline for use as a screwdriver and as such need a huge amount of clearance round the screw head. I rarely use the screwdrivers with the handles folded up in the form you store the tool it, it's almost always with the scrwdriver out at the end of a handle, the plier head folded in to the other end handle and my hand gripping the handle with the pliers in.

I tend to be doing a lot less in the way of automotive and electrical panel work than you, Tom. As such, I don't tend to come across the restricted clearance issues quite as much. Nor do I tend to need that extended reach. Screwdriver use for me tends to be more "domestic". That said you have a very valid point there, and if that is what you need to do, then that is what the tool you carry must offer.

Maybe you ought to do a rundown on driver types like I've tried to do here with pliers, to show why certain tools off the best type of drivers (size/reach/configuration)  :pok: :pok: ;)

I do wonder how hard it would b to modify a Leatherman (or anything else with butterfly pliers) to reduce the span needed. I think it would just be a simple case of filing down the plier back stop in the handles, though on a Wave/Charge that would weaken the area because there isn't much meat there as a result of the blade lock.

Maybe I'll do that one evening once I've got my house back together and I'm not playing with something with wheels  :rofl:

I have considered it myself, but it's not work I'm happy doing for fear of causing sloppy pliers.
If you decide to give it a go, let us know how you get on  :salute:

Wonderful insights AL,
Here are are my inputs:
Nothing is perfect for every job, MT are designed to handle daily small tasks IMO. For bigger jobs, one should use dedicated tools if possible.
The MT you mention they do fall short when they are used to bite on large objects, but I think they are fine for deal with smaller objects like small nuts, cutting small wires. I am not a plumber and the only time I had such trouble was when I change a shower head in my house, none of my MT has pliers that open wide enough to grip on the pipe except Surge, the like you said, its handles spread way too wide for me to use it one hand. It got the job done, but clearly shown Surge wasn't designed for such task.   

Cheers mate  :cheers: My take is that multitools are there to tackle the unknown when dedicated tools might not be available. The more capable the pliers are, the more "surprise" tasks I can handle. With the current Leatherman and Victorinox offerings, the bigger the pliers, the smaller the capability I can handle. It's totally counter productive. To me, it's not worth carrying a bigger and heavier tool with less capable pliers, just for a fractionally longer blade/saw/file.

Such as tightening a 13mm A/F nut on a car battery is significantly easier with a smaller (4") framed tool due to the less splayed handles, with the exception of the Diesel and adjustable/locking pliers tools. Bigger hand tools should be capable of bigger tasks, but not need bigger hands in order to do it. Large nuts and bolts are tightened with spanners with longer handles, but they don't need to be the diameter of a donkey's leg so only people with XXL hands can use them. Manufacturers need to recognise that people with average sized hands, or indeed smaller hands, or left hand dominant, or whatever, need to be able to handle a range of tasks too. If their tools cannot accomodate such people (or vice versa), they are denying themselves a large share of market potential ... because there are other tools out there which WILL suit those people

Having just read this entire thread in one sitting, I must say you've really explained your arguments in a very logical way Al  :tu:

Having now seen your point of view it makes me wonder just what parameters leathermans designers opt for when designing new models.  Because it certainly doesn't look like they're designed that well TBH.

Here in the UK leathermans are ridiculously expensive considering that they are a compromise to "Real" tools.

Thank you  :cheers: I think Leatherman do a good job of their plier heads (though I'm not a fan of the indexables ones), and tend to do a reasonal job of most of their supporting tools, some of the larger framed tools are exemplory, though some of their smaller (Juice and below) are pretty poor. Where they fall down is how they incorporate it into a whole. Assymetrical handles, flared/splayed handles, making a knife blade locking but drivers (which are more likely to fold in use) non-locking.

Cost is certainly a factor for us on this side of the pond, where a Victorinox tool in many instances could be a cheaper option. I'd like to see more energy put into ergonomics, and less into hype and lies. The fact is that many of their tools are unusable for some users. They need to recognise this if they are going to increase their market share. A Surge pliers can handle far less than a significantly cheaper Diesel can in my hands. Make that same tool more usable for more people, and you can win more orders. As it stands there is a large percentage of their tools that I (and other people) will instantly disregard and not consider buying due to these very basic issues.


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us Offline Marcellus

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #80 on: January 20, 2015, 02:02:16 AM
OP

Excellent commentary, thanks for taking the time to post w/ pictures

You really pointed out a "pro" for the Gerber MP

Thank you  :cheers: I appreciate the comment  :salute:






Well, let's put this way
Your narrative made me appreciate my MP600 a lot more and realize the limitation of a some others I own

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 02:04:03 AM by Marcellus »


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #81 on: January 20, 2015, 02:24:13 AM
OP

Excellent commentary, thanks for taking the time to post w/ pictures

You really pointed out a "pro" for the Gerber MP

Thank you  :cheers: I appreciate the comment  :salute:

Well, let's put this way
Your narrative made me appreciate my MP600 a lot more and realize the limitation of a some others I own

Good to hear  :tu: All multitools are limited in some way or other. The key is finding the right tool/s with the right mix of attributes for you. Some might find they have small hands but need OHO blades - maybe a Flik would be better suited for them, but they have the issue of stumpy drivers. For someone who needs pliers with even greater capacity, in which case a Grappler, Crunch or Schrade Vise Grips might be more fitting. The other thing is not being frightened of relying on more than one tool. Sometimes it might be better to have a pliers tool plus a SAK or shears based tool rather than trying to handle one tool with everything. It's also more important in my mind to focus on the tools themselves rather than what name is on the side. A high end tool that doesn't suit your needs is not as good as a lower end tool that does

When I had a boat, I had a Core, a Swissgrip and a Gerber MP600 DET modified to have shear heads. Between those three (and a 4" puukko knife), there wasn't much I couldn't handle. Knowing what I know now, maybe I should have switched the Core for a Diesel, and switched the Swissgrip for a Minigrip and Bahco Laplander

 :think: Maybe I ought to get pics of the Swissgrip in this thread too ...


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nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #82 on: January 20, 2015, 07:18:48 AM
The problem with the sliding pliers is that you can't open them out inline for use as a screwdriver and as such need a huge amount of clearance round the screw head. I rarely use the screwdrivers with the handles folded up in the form you store the tool it, it's almost always with the scrwdriver out at the end of a handle, the plier head folded in to the other end handle and my hand gripping the handle with the pliers in.

I have thought this too and it's one thing that puts me off an OHT.

The fact is that many of their tools are unusable for some users. They need to recognise this if they are going to increase their market share. A Surge pliers can handle far less than a significantly cheaper Diesel can in my hands. Make that same tool more usable for more people, and you can win more orders. As it stands there is a large percentage of their tools that I (and other people) will instantly disregard and not consider buying due to these very basic issues.

Ahh but because tools like the Surge suit bigger hands then they are catering for a different share of the market. There is no 'one size fits all' IMO. I tend to steer away from the smaller ones.

Nothing is perfect for every job, MT are designed to handle daily small tasks IMO. For bigger jobs, one should use dedicated tools if possible.
The MT you mention they do fall short when they are used to bite on large objects, but I think they are fine for deal with smaller objects like small nuts, cutting small wires.

Lots of people here talk about using their pliers on nuts. I wouldn't dream of doing this unless it was an emergency.


au Offline gregozedobe

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #83 on: January 20, 2015, 07:40:05 AM
Lots of people here talk about using their pliers on nuts. I wouldn't dream of doing this unless it was an emergency.

If I have to use an MT on nuts I strongly prefer to use my LM Crunch as there is much less chance of slipping and damaging the nut and/or my hand.  I know they are a bit fiddly to use as pliers, but they are my preferred option if a dedicated tool (eg socket or spanner) isn't available.
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us Offline Kampfer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #84 on: January 20, 2015, 08:03:01 AM
Nothing is perfect for every job, MT are designed to handle daily small tasks IMO. For bigger jobs, one should use dedicated tools if possible.
The MT you mention they do fall short when they are used to bite on large objects, but I think they are fine for deal with smaller objects like small nuts, cutting small wires.

Lots of people here talk about using their pliers on nuts. I wouldn't dream of doing this unless it was an emergency.
[/quote]
I done that with a MT when I put together a dinning table, just for fun, I had dedicated tools near by.
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nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #85 on: January 20, 2015, 08:43:02 AM
I done that with a MT when I put together a dinning table, just for fun, I had dedicated tools near by.
:sa: :dwts: :ahhh


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #86 on: January 20, 2015, 08:12:07 PM
The fact is that many of their tools are unusable for some users. They need to recognise this if they are going to increase their market share. A Surge pliers can handle far less than a significantly cheaper Diesel can in my hands. Make that same tool more usable for more people, and you can win more orders. As it stands there is a large percentage of their tools that I (and other people) will instantly disregard and not consider buying due to these very basic issues.

Ahh but because tools like the Surge suit bigger hands then they are catering for a different share of the market. There is no 'one size fits all' IMO. I tend to steer away from the smaller ones.

Are the smaller (Fuse, Wave, MP400) multitools particularly uncomfortable for you, or do the larger framed tools just feel more reassuring?


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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #87 on: January 20, 2015, 08:12:53 PM
... and as for using pliers as a spanner .. yes, emergencies only  :salute:


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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #88 on: February 03, 2015, 06:48:26 PM
Excellent series of posts, 50ft-trad.  I concur with several points concerning the ease of using Gerber vs. non-Gerber pliers, but I think the majority of your analysis addresses gripping larger objects.

I've been thinking about this again recently, and wondering if I ought to take a series of wire cuting pics. This may be a task that people need to do more frequently, and might be a better comparison for people. It might also show slightly different results, based on the shapes of the various plier heads.

Worth doing?


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: One of the reasons I keep picking Gerber over Leatherman ...
Reply #89 on: February 03, 2015, 06:50:28 PM
Excellent series of posts, 50ft-trad.  I concur with several points concerning the ease of using Gerber vs. non-Gerber pliers, but I think the majority of your analysis addresses gripping larger objects.

I've been thinking about this again recently, and wondering if I ought to take a series of wire cuting pics. This may be a task that people need to do more frequently, and might be a better comparison for people. It might also show slightly different results, based on the shapes of the various plier heads.

Worth doing?
Yes, please. I agree, that would be a very interesting comparison. :salute:
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.


 

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