Blade lock for 91mm Victorinox?

[fyrstormer]

Has anyone ever figured out how to retrofit a blade lock onto a 91mm Victorinox? It's a basic safety feature and it bugs me that Victorinox only includes it on their largest tools and the ones they inherited from Wenger. I could probably figure out how to do it on my own, eventually, but I'd rather draw upon the expertise of this forum instead of wasting time, money, and parts.

[nate j]

Saving the debate about whether a blade lock is “a basic safety feature” (I’d argue that a lock doesn’t really enhance safety, that some common lock designs are actually quite dangerous because they require the user to put fingers in the closing path of the blade in order to disengage the lock, that locking knives should always be used as if they were non-locking anyway, and that a blade lock can be the difference between a legal and illegal carry in some jurisdictions), I’m not aware of anyone successfully retrofitting a 91 mm with a lock.

If you must have a lock, as you say, your best and easiest bet would be to simply pick something from either the 111 mm or Delemont “S” ranges.

[fyrstormer]

It's not really "saving the debate" if you state your case while saying you're not going to state your case. 🤨 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis)

Having your fingers in the path of the closing blade is a risk when using any folding knife, regardless of whether it has a lock or not. The purpose of the lock is to ensure the blade doesn't close accidentally while the blade is in-use, if you're pressing hard to cut something and the knife slips. You can argue about whether it's reasonable to press hard when cutting something with a knife, but that is why safety features exist in the first place; we wouldn't need seatbelts and airbags in cars if everyone just made sure to never crash, right? You don't get to control the real-world conditions that tools have to operate in; often it is necessary to make-do with what you have, which is the point of carrying any kind of pocket tools. As for the risk of having the blade close on your fingers while you're intentionally closing the blade, that can be mitigated by adding a simple detente or half-stop to the mechanism so the blade doesn't move freely all the way to the closed position.

Anyway, I clearly stated I was asking about 91mm SAKs, and it should be equally clear that I don't have a problem making modifications as necessary, so recommending a different product completely misses the point. What did you think you were contributing with this reply?

[RF52]

It might be possible to make a locking liner and add it and modify the blade tang, like on the 111mm line. But I haven't tried it myself.

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[Simon_Templar]

It's not really "saving the debate" if you state your case while saying you're not going to state your case. 🤨 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis)

[...]

What did you think you were contributing with this reply?

To be fair with Nate, he did state that he isn't aware of anyone on the forum successfully construing a blade lock for 91 mm, so there's your answer to your question. I seem to remember I saw a post where someone built a Opinel-type lock for a 91 mm once, but at least to me it didn't look very practical.

By the way, derailing threads are a common occurrence on this forum. Some like it, some don't, but either way it's one of the particularities of the forum, so there is little use getting riled up about it. SAKs are everyone's hobby or interest here, so most members have more or less strong opinions on about every aspect of SAK life. It's what makes this place lively and interesting (at least to me), and given that the tone of the discussions is almost always polite and friendly, you may even end up liking the place all the more for it. 

[kkokkolis]

To be fair with Nate, he did state that he isn't aware of anyone on the forum successfully construing a blade lock for 91 mm, so there's your answer to your question. I seem to remember I saw a post where someone built a Opinel-type lock for a 91 mm once, but at least to me it didn't look very practical.

By the way, derailing threads are a common occurrence on this forum. Some like it, some don't, but either way it's one of the particularities of the forum, so there is little use getting riled up about it. SAKs are everyone's hobby or interest here, so most members have more or less strong opinions on about every aspect of SAK life. It's what makes this place lively and interesting (at least to me), and given that the tone of the discussions is almost always polite and friendly, you may even end up liking the place all the more for it. 

Excellent analysis!

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[ComboTool]

I remember someone (maybe Syph?) attempting to make a 111mm-like liner lock for 91mm knives. If you search the mod squad subforum you should find it.

[comis]

I remember someone (maybe Syph?) attempting to make a 111mm-like liner lock for 91mm knives. If you search the mod squad subforum you should find it.

That's true, Syph did it on 93mm and it possible to adapt one for 91mm. 
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,34772.msg838710.html#msg838710
Ana from Spain did have a fabulous idea incorporating the 111mm liner idea to the mod.

But IIRC, all various attempts on making locks I have seen on this forum or elsewhere, usually does still involve a backspring.  Having said that, it is surely possible to make one without, but blade retention will probably be difficult to get right, and potentially pose a higher risk than mistakeningly close a slip joint blade on fingers.

To be fair with Nate, he did state that he isn't aware of anyone on the forum successfully construing a blade lock for 91 mm, so there's your answer to your question. I seem to remember I saw a post where someone built a Opinel-type lock for a 91 mm once, but at least to me it didn't look very practical.

By the way, derailing threads are a common occurrence on this forum. Some like it, some don't, but either way it's one of the particularities of the forum, so there is little use getting riled up about it. SAKs are everyone's hobby or interest here, so most members have more or less strong opinions on about every aspect of SAK life. It's what makes this place lively and interesting (at least to me), and given that the tone of the discussions is almost always polite and friendly, you may even end up liking the place all the more for it. 

Agree with S_T here on the diversity of the forum, and I for one am thankful to all these different opinions.  We may not always agree on the same thing, but can always agree to disagree.  And I think that's what make this forum a unique place, and why many of us chose to call this home.

[ComboTool]

Ana from Spain did have a fabulous idea incorporating the 111mm liner idea to the mod.

Thanks, that's the one I had in mind 

[comis]

Thanks, that's the one I had in mind 

[Farmer X]

Derailing threads are a common occurrence on this forum.

Just like conversing in person: you never know in what direction you might go. Derailing threads never bothered me too much.

I gave this subject some thought, and the liner lock could work. Perhaps it's also possible to adapt the lock from an Evolution model? Howwver, unless you get both the project knife and the parts donor cheaply, such a mod could be expensive (especially when time spent executing the mod is factored in).

[kamakiri]

Stainless liner lock is probably the easiest to produce and get ‘right’. Perhaps the safest from a home-made perspective. It’s also probably the heaviest solution.

I’m actually more surprised that the OP would ‘bother’ to ask anyone their opinions at all on a subject like this.

Regarding locks and the side discussion…I don’t like them much on small frame knives…or if they aren’t OHO. But I did make a 100mm gardener hawksbill out of 111mm that uses the liner lock…because the way that I use it to cut grasses and thatch…it’s easy to close a relatively low spring compression knife by accident under normal use. With the blade type in its original frame, I had many instances where it was important to have been wearing thick leather gardening gloves.

For discussion sake only, there are lots of other ways to go for a 91mm lock. Just depends how far into the ‘more trouble than it’s worth’ range one is willing to go. 

Anyone posting here should also check the OP’s other thread.   

[nate j]

What did you think you were contributing with this reply?

I’ve given you several what I would call “90% solutions”, any of which would be easier to implement:

- Re-evaluate the safety value of a blade lock

- Consider basing your build on a SAK that already incorporates a locking blade from the factory, as opposed to one that does not

- (not mentioned in my previous post, but) carry a 91 mm SAK for the other tools (or even do a blade-less 91 mm mod), and add any single-blade locking folder of your choice as your primary blade


If you don’t like any of those ideas and you’re determined to build a locking 91 mm, no hard feelings.  I wish you luck with your project, and hope you’ll post some pics!

[Farmer X]

Carry a 91 mm SAK for the other tools (or even do a blade-less 91 mm mod), and add any single-blade locking folder of your choice as your primary blade

I, too, thought of that option. A Buck 112 Slim Ranger can be had for about $30 US...and an Opinel No. 6 for about half that. Unless one really likes to tinker and/or the project knife and parts donor can be sourced very inexpensively, a knife designed from the ground up with a locking blade may well be a more cost-effective option. (I gave up on one mod idea because I found a more effective, and less expensive, solution.)

If...you’re determined to build a locking 91 mm...I wish you luck with your project, and hope you’ll post some pics!

Me, too.

[Simon_Templar]

Anyone posting here should also check the OP’s other thread.   

Hi kamakiri, your remark made me curious. I suppose you mean the "sensible Multi-Tool thread", which I have just read. I now know what you meant...

[afishhunter]

 The purpose of the lock is to ensure the blade doesn't close accidentally while the blade is in-use, if you're pressing hard to cut something and the knife slips.

Unless you're doing something stupid, like attempting to cut with the blade spine, the normal cutting action forces the blade open, regardless of how much pressure you are using. The blade won't close on your fingers if it slips.

Also, you should take into consideration the fact that the modern liner lock wasn't even invented until the 1980's.
The modern lockback showed up in 1964.
The old "Press to Release" liner lock (usually used on tool blades, like the screwdriver on a TL-29) showed up between WW1 and WW2.
The back spring first appeared in the mid 1700's.
The oldest known folding knife to date is a bone handled friction folder, which has been radio carbon dated to between 400 and 600 BC. (no doubt the folding knife dates back further, they just haven't found an older one yet.)

Point being, people have been using folding knives without a blade lock for at least a couple thousand years, without removing a finger or even so much as getting a minor cut or scratch.
The friction folder which possess neither a back spring or a blade lock are still in use and popular around the world today, by the way.

A locking blade isn't required for safety. Use common sense. If you are really afraid of folding knives that don't have a blade lock, the solution is simple: get a fixed blade/sheath knife. Mora (among others) makes a pocketable sheath knife: The Eldris. I bought a Toferner "Celtic Pocket Knife" off Amazon. (the sheath comes with a leather cord that lets you use it as a neck knife.) The Toferner is a hand forged medieval type blade that is around 3 inches overall. It retains the "as forged" finish.

[Farmer X]

+1.

I have an Eldris, and it's a good little knife. Unfortunately, it isn't something I'd carry. Unless I put it on my belt and tuck my shirt in, I'd almost certainly be committing a felony.

[kamakiri]

^Great points above couple of posts.

I do feel the lock I use on the 100mm hawksbill mod serves me well for my use. One of the main uses is getting to the bottom of tall grasses. Typically grabbing the clump I’m trying to cut and getting the hook of the blade into or around the clump and pulling back to cut. It’s often inserting or maneuvering the blade without the lock that I could fairly frequently bump the spine and partly close the blade. Always while wearing gloves, but I can’t think of a better or different method that isn’t less efficient…like shears into a big clump. With the 111mm liner lock, it works well/efficiently and more importantly, safely.

But yes, I haven’t managed to cut any fingers in use with any folder so far and not in the last 38 years of using SAKs. Can’t say the same of hobby/Exacto knives from right about the same time ago. Still have the scar from that learning experience.

Biggest safety hazard for me has probably been cleaning SAK blades. Nothing a lock would prevent.

Hi kamakiri, your remark made me curious. I suppose you mean the "sensible Multi-Tool thread", which I have just read. I now know what you meant...

:nudge: :nudge:

 

[Farmer X]

But yes, I haven’t managed to cut any fingers in use with any folder so far and not in the last 38 years of using SAKs. Can’t say the same of hobby/Exacto knives from right about the same time ago. Still have the scar from that learning experience.

Same here. I've never had a blade try to fold up on me while in use. But I have a scar that came courtesy of a hobby knife some 20 years ago. Now I use side cutters to remove model kit parts from their sprues.

[Huntsman]

Hi all,

I can't really comment or make suggestions on the lock options - As I am not a big modder....
Although if Syph has tried it - Then that gets my vote and I am sure he has clearly explained how he did it, as he always does.

As to the value of doing it - I often question the value of nearly all the mods done on this forum! 
Why do all these time consuming mods when there are so many good factory produced options?        

However what I know is:

• Many here just enjoy the challenge of modding - It's a hobby, it's fun and satisfying
• Many want an exact configuration to their own spec - And if it ain't available - They build it!
• We all seem to have our favourite base models, but want to tweak it slightly Eg Q1: "Why not take a locking Delemont?" - A: "Coz I prefer the 91mm frame!"; Q2: So you want scissors on a 84/5 frame size - Why not take a Delemont!" - A: "No because I want/prefer Vic scissors!"  etc etc

That's the fun of this place - And the imaginiation and ingenuity of our members - Especially in the Mod pages

And I can comment on the value of a locking blade - My son once asked to borrow my knife when he was pretty young (maybe four)
At the time I had a Wenger S18 in my pocket - And I had no hesitation giving  him the knife
That would not have been the case if I had had a Vic 91mm in my pocket!!

[hsherzfeld]

Maybe try cannibalizing the locking system from a Delemont knife? Although that particular system isn’t very strong. I’ve successfully overpowered the lock and forced the blade closed on my S111 before.

I’ll just say that the worst cut I’ve ever received (requiring four stitches) was inflicted by a fully serrated, locking Victorinox Picknicker. But that happened because I was cutting towards my hand. I was only about 12 at the time, but even then I should have known better. Cub Scouts and all that.

I can’t remember ever having a SAK fold on my fingers, but a Schrade Old Timer trapper folded on me and gave me a nasty cut…when I was using the blade to pry with. Notice a theme developing here?

[kamakiri]

Notice a theme developing here?

 

I do wonder if locks are more popular amongst those who haven’t learned knife safety the hard way. Perhaps for the psychological aspect of somehow feeling reassured that they’re doing what’s safe. 

A friend and neighbor relayed his knife safety lesson as a teen cutting down boxes. Ended with several stitches near the femoral artery.

[Tasky]

I tend to find that knives close on peoples' hands not through mis-cutting, but from accidentally catching the spine when holding the knife and switching between cutting tasks.
I can't imagine how hard you've got to hit a knife to break the lock, but it's got to be a really intentional and hefty amount of force, right?

Could you do something that mods the mainspring and knock up a new large blade to include a notch, then delete the corkscrew/screwdriver and replace it with a standard lockback style lever that pivots where the corkscrew was?
That'd be my line of thinking, if I had the skills to make what's in my head.

[hsherzfeld]

I can't imagine how hard you've got to hit a knife to break the lock, but it's got to be a really intentional and hefty amount of force, right?

Yes, it was. I pressed the spine of the blade against a table until the blade folded. This was an intentional test of the lock.

[kamakiri]

Could you do something that mods the mainspring and knock up a new large blade to include a notch, then delete the corkscrew/screwdriver and replace it with a standard lockback style lever that pivots where the corkscrew was?
That'd be my line of thinking, if I had the skills to make what's in my head.

This can be done, but I wouldn’t try to do it in the ‘last’/back layer where the blades and CS/Phillips are. Not a lot of room for the spring/release mechanisms…but doable and easier, I think, in a different layer.

[Tasky]

This can be done, but I wouldn’t try to do it in the ‘last’/back layer where the blades and CS/Phillips are. Not a lot of room for the spring/release mechanisms…but doable and easier, I think, in a different layer.

I thought of that exact location for two reasons:

1 - There's already a cutout in the scales/liner, into which you'd depress the end of the lockback lever.
2 - It's effectively the same idea as the Delémont Packlock, albeit executed differently, so it should be fine and still avoids having the release sticking up so much it catches on pockets.

Thinking about it, you could possibly use an existing Delémont large blade anyway and just fabricate a new spring to incorporate the lockback. It possibly wouldn't be as snappily-strong as the original spring, but it doesn't have to be - It just needs to hold against reasonable longitudinal force, to keep the blade locked. The small blade/nail file would be sprung by the back end of the new spring easily enough.

[nate j]

I tend to find that knives close on peoples' hands not through mis-cutting, but from accidentally catching the spine when holding the knife and switching between cutting tasks.

I’m having a tough time visualizing this happening.  Can you give a real world example?

[kamakiri]

I thought of that exact location for two reasons:

1 - There's already a cutout in the scales/liner, into which you'd depress the end of the lockback lever.
2 - It's effectively the same idea as the Delémont Packlock, albeit executed differently, so it should be fine and still avoids having the release sticking up so much it catches on pockets.

I figured that’s what you were getting at. For the travel needed, the cutout is far too large, IMO. Based on 91mm design and using the 3rd/back pin as the lock bar pivot, only ~2mm depth or so would be needed as a cutout. Knife liners for the chisel or old back SD already have a decent cutout for this purpose…and look like a factory-ish assembly.

[Tasky]

I’m having a tough time visualizing this happening.  Can you give a real world example?

Sure - Imagine you're bushcrafting and working next to a short tree stump. You've just feathered a stick for the fire and you turn to reach for another, but catch the back of the blade against the tree stump - Snap, ouch, etc.
Another is working in a tight space, say a cubic foot box, cutting cords from a web harness or something. It's tight, you alter your position for the next cut and again catch the knife on the side of the box.

I figured that’s what you were getting at. For the travel needed, the cutout is far too large, IMO. Based on 91mm design and using the 3rd/back pin as the lock bar pivot, only ~2mm depth or so would be needed as a cutout. Knife liners for the chisel or old back SD already have a decent cutout for this purpose…and look like a factory-ish assembly.

Unless you have a thumb that is under 2mm wide and/or fingernails of titanium, you'll need a decent size cutout in order to depress the lock bar...

[kamakiri]

Unless you have a thumb that is under 2mm wide and/or fingernails of titanium, you'll need a decent size cutout in order to depress the lock bar...

You’re missing my point. That’s why the liner with the SD/chisel nail nick cutout is used and placed next to the normal blade layer.

The way you’re suggesting leaves little to no room for the required spring mechanism to be installed and much less to be hidden.