Swiss tools V Leatherman

[cnlson]

So this started with a discussion I had with someone on a youtube comparison video which really didn't go much into comparing. I have had a many leatherman since 1990 when I went to the gulf war. I had never owned a Swisstool, although I have had 3 or 4 victorinox knives ( Tinker, 2 classic, Minichamp) My impression was that the Swisstools were life the knives, elegant but not rough and tumble.

So since the discussion I was in went like this "You only know leatherman, so you don't know what you are talking about" so I decided to find out. I bought an elderly Swisstool X off ebay For $80 it was in rough shape,  I learned that Swiss tools rust too, then I got a notification on 2 swisstool RS still in the package for $65 each and thought, "well I did want to test the serrated knives" so figured a way to coax them from a grandma in rural PA to my abode in SD ( I had to mail her cash and a box with a prepaid shipping label) Currently one of the RS is on ebay and may end up bringing enough to pay for both of them. And because someone here, or on youtube said "you don't have the newest plier head" I discovered that the swisstool X and the rs are from 1998 apparently, So i went back to ebay and found a spirit x that i managed to bring the price down to $71 with a little negotiation.

For anyone that cares, my opinion has changed quite a bit. The swisstool pliers are pretty chunky, not dainty, The tools are fairly robust. I would say the blades, again, appear to be the weakest spot. They are not a premium steel for the plain edge blade and I'm going to guess that since they sharpen quickly they will dull quickly. But they are much more substantial of a tool than I expected.

So as I said in the initial discussion I am going to put the tools to the test. I've been trying to figure out how to test them against my leatherman and the first test i wanted to do was pliers. So I came up with this while thinking of how to do it. 3 grade 5 bolts (5/16" 3/8" and 7/16") welded to a piece of angle iron a couple washers and tightening the bolts to certain #ft (or NM) and trying to loosen them.
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Here's what I've learned so far:

• metal splinters really slide in easy and hurt alot. Although I was not wearing safety squints I managed to keep them out of my eyes but not my hands.
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• I started at 50 FT# and rapidly, but not rapidly enough, learned that is far beyond the capabilities of plier multitools. Even the 5/16" spread the handles far enough apart that it is nearly impossible to squeeze hard enough to get decent grip. This is what created the metal splinters. 25 ft# was the max I was able to loosen with the 2 swisstool x and the spirit x, I was not able to get the leatherman charge I tried with. However, I should have gone straight to a surge or supertool 300. Length, as we imagine the women saying, There is no substitute.
  
• hands rapidly loose strength when trying to all out squeeze the handles. even with a 5/16 my hands were spread to the max and I couldn't put the other hand to use doubling the grip. I think I might have gotten the charge to work had I tried it first.
  

If anyone has a better suggestion on how to test the pliers, since it seems I'm only going to be able to do this one tool at a time with a rest between. I'd appreciate it.

The other things I'm going to test are the rescue cutters (serrrated blades) the straps in the picture are for that, seatbelt and some 20k webbing, the saws ( going to see how fast they will saw a 2x4 and then see if they dull on some ironwood), the knives (going to make cardboard confetti until they don't cut anymore) and the files,

I tried an edge cut with the 3 tools and the spirit was way aggressive, to the point it was chattering rather than cutting for the first 3 or 3 strokes, but once i got it to bite in one spot it cut the angle iron very fast. It was 20 stokes for each tool and really of those maybe 16 were in the same spot for the spirit and it was still ahead of the others. The leatherman was second, The swisstool 3rd.
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For the file I'm going to test both the flat sides and the metal saw on the angle iron.

if anyone has suggestions on how to test or what to test please let me know. My mind is open, i'm not asking as a leatherman fan boi, I really want to put them to the test.

i'm going to go pick more splinters out of my hand.

[GearedForwards]

Very interesting test and I'll be following!

My own feedback on them (I own several leatherman tools and one older Swisstool):

1) The Swisstool has far, far higher fit and finish and better tolerances. If the leatherman tolerances were on a dedicated pocket knife they'd be ridiculed and returned.

2) Almost all steel will eventually rust, but the Swisstool has needed far less care than the leatherman tools. The bead blasted blades of the Rebar are particularly bad for this. I once hand-rubbed a bead blast into... a different finish and it fixed this issue, but I don't have the time and patience I did when I was 18.

3) Leatherman blade steels tend to hold up better to use, which is no shocker, but realistically this isn't an issue for me since use on my blades is heavily spread around. For the price I'd want a better steel from the Leatherman, I don't expect that to happen on the Vics ever.

4) I like OHO tools, this isn't a deal breaker (as multiple LM's I have don't have any), but it's a nice bonus on the Wave. A OHO Spirit with clip is on the list, eventually.

5) I really like having access to metal files, I like having the finer diamond file on the Wave, but for cutting I found the ST's metal saw far more effective.

6) ST's can be a real PITA when the tools are tight, Leatherman's less so.

7) The answer is to have and use both!

[cnlson]

Very interesting test and I'll be following!

My own feedback on them (I own several leatherman tools and one older Swisstool):

1) The Swisstool has far, far higher fit and finish and better tolerances. If the leatherman tolerances were on a dedicated pocket knife they'd be ridiculed and returned.

2) Almost all steel will eventually rust, but the Swisstool has needed far less care than the leatherman tools. The bead blasted blades of the Rebar are particularly bad for this. I once hand-rubbed a bead blast into... a different finish and it fixed this issue, but I don't have the time and patience I did when I was 18.

3) Leatherman blade steels tend to hold up better to use, which is no shocker, but realistically this isn't an issue for me since use on my blades is heavily spread around. For the price I'd want a better steel from the Leatherman, I don't expect that to happen on the Vics ever.

4) I like OHO tools, this isn't a deal breaker (as multiple LM's I have don't have any), but it's a nice bonus on the Wave. A OHO Spirit with clip is on the list, eventually.

5) I really like having access to metal files, I like having the finer diamond file on the Wave, but for cutting I found the ST's metal saw far more effective.

6) ST's can be a real PITA when the tools are tight, Leatherman's less so.

7) The answer is to have and use both!

i ordered a clip for the spirit, but OHO outside tools is a dealbreaker for me. Interestingly, I can butterfly the spirit open and closed which I did not expect.
By before I talk out of school in the future, I want to know how capable both companies tools are. I have about 50 leatherman of all types, and 4 soon to be 3 victorinox.

[gregozedobe]

if anyone has suggestions on how to test or what to test please let me know. My mind is open, i'm not asking as a leatherman fan boi, I really want to put them to the test.

i'm going to go pick more splinters out of my hand.

If you want to turn tight nuts/bolts the locking pliers on the Leatherman Crunch are much better suited than any regular plier type MT, as once you adjust them properly and tighten them down you no longer have to keep squeezing the handles together to stop the pliers slipping (and making nasty metal splinters).  When you really need locking pliers the extra time it takes to set up a Crunch is well worth it.

Besides, all MTo members need excuses to buy a different MT, don't they ?         

[Aloha]

I carried and used my Swisstool quite often.  I now carry and use my Spirit quite often.  They can and do rust.  I keep one in the garage that I do not treat well at all.  Its in great shape still but the main blade does need a sharpening.  I dig out weeds as well as use it for its intended purposes.   

As for plier testing  .  I do appreciate OHO but when working I'll have other options so its not a deal breaker for me.  I do like the awl and chisel quite a lot.  I modified my Surge to include a chisel since I liked it so much.  My main work tools are Spirit on my pants belt, Surge on my work tool belt with Crunch just because.   

[aicolainen]

I had similar preconceptions about the swisstools.
Until not many years ago I didn’t even look twice at a SAK, they were just toys in my (uninformed) view.
Naturally I wouldn’t trust a toy company to make a good MT, and the shiny appearance didn’t help, so most of what I felt about SAKs carried over to the Swisstools.

And I’ve been a Leatherman only dude since I got my first OG ST in 1996. For no particular reason, they just worked so I didn’t see a need to experiment with other brands.

After hearing just about every reviewer I have some faith in, describe the swisstools as the best engineered and produced MT, I accumulated a noticeable urge to experience it myself. When I also realized that my needs are a bit different these days, and the Spirit was actually a better fit than I had assumed, I had the justification I needed.
I’ve only had it for a month or so, but man.. all practical use aside, the action of that thing is addictive. Just the sound as you open and close each implement is like music.
It’s too early for me to roll the dice on its performance as a tool, but I’m liking it so far.

As to my Leathermans, I don’t have a bunch and most of them have a good few years in service. I use them for work, my employer will pay for any multitool I deem beneficial for my productivity, and I’ve never exploited that agreement to buy anything just for my own satisfaction or curiosity. I’ve hardly done any amount of fieldwork the last 5 years or so, and thats where the MTs really shine for me, so there hasn’t been much of a need to add or replace any, but I added a Surge not too long ago, when I realized that it actually solves a specific use case quite elegantly. There I said it, you probably don’t hear that word to describe the Surge very often. And no wonder. I almost returned it right away, for thinking it was out of spec.
It is nowhere near the Spirit in fit and finish, but what’s worse is that it’s so sloppy compared to my older Leathermans. It’s the only Surge I’ve handled, so maybe it’s a bad sample after all, but it works and I don’t have time to deal with warranty as long as it can carry out what I need it to do.

I have a new Rebar and ST300 incoming, not sure which one to keep yet, but at least I’ll soon have another data point on current LM quality.

The Spirit is my own, and while the boundaries between private and work tools are blurry, I’m not likely to push the Spirit to its limits, while the LMs that can be very easily replaced I’ve beat on so hard, and I’ve yet to break one. Lost many, but never broken. Pretty unscientific and anecdotal data point right there. It just means I have a lot of confidence in Leathermans, but it doesn’t take anything away from the Spirit, there’s just a lack of comparable experience.

[cnlson]

If you want to turn tight nuts/bolts the locking pliers on the Leatherman Crunch are much better suited than any regular plier type MT, as once you adjust them properly and tighten them down you no longer have to keep squeezing the handles together to stop the pliers slipping (and making nasty metal splinters).  When you really need locking pliers the extra time it takes to set up a Crunch is well worth it.

Besides, all MTo members need excuses to buy a different MT, don't they ?         

I've got two crunches, and yes locking would be a lot better, but what if all you have is your multitool?

[cnlson]

I had similar preconceptions about the swisstools.
Until not many years ago I didn’t even look twice at a SAK, they were just toys in my (uninformed) view.
Naturally I wouldn’t trust a toy company to make a good MT, and the shiny appearance didn’t help, so most of what I felt about SAKs carried over to the Swisstools.

Yeah, this was my thought process as well, and I was quite surprised when I started playing with the first swisstool.

After hearing just about every reviewer I have some faith in, describe the swisstools as the best engineered and produced MT, I accumulated a noticeable urge to experience it myself. When I also realized that my needs are a bit different these days, and the Spirit was actually a better fit than I had assumed, I had the justification I needed.
I’ve only had it for a month or so, but man.. all practical use aside, the action of that thing is addictive. Just the sound as you open and close each implement is like music.
It’s too early for me to roll the dice on its performance as a tool, but I’m liking it so far.

I added a Surge not too long ago, <big snip>  what’s worse is that it’s so sloppy compared to my older Leathermans. It’s the only Surge I’ve handled, so maybe it’s a bad sample after all, but it works and I don’t have time to deal with warranty as long as it can carry out what I need it to do.

Do tell, what is it that you find sloppy? I have both the first gen and second gen surge and i dug out the second gen (post 2013) and it's large and cumbersome but i'm not finding sloppy.

I have a new Rebar and ST300 incoming, not sure which one to keep yet, but at least I’ll soon have another data point on current LM quality.

I have the rebar, st200, st300, st300m and i find the rebar just a touch too small and the st300 almost a little too big, If I had to choose between them for a work tool I would probably go with the st300

LMs that can be very easily replaced I’ve beat on so hard, and I’ve yet to break one. Lost many, but never broken.

I'm the opposite, I have never (knocks on much wood) lost any leathermen, but i have broken about everything you could break on them. before the replaceable wirecutters, that often prompted a trip back to home base. but i think I have probably broken every function at least once. The large screwdriver/prybar has been a favorite, it is strong in one dimension and very weak in the other.  with the warranty I do not even consider not doing something with them. as long as i have the pieces to send in, i will get a repaired tool back.

When i was reefing on those nuts, the replaceable wire cutters misaligned on the charge, they got turned just slightly enough that they were dragging on the opposite plier half when moving, and my first thought was, off you go back to leatherman. but I grabbed a 7.5 torx out of my ifixit toolkit and loosened them up and no more catching. I was almost disappointed.

[cnlson]

I carried and used my Swisstool quite often.  I now carry and use my Spirit quite often.  They can and do rust. 

yeah, that was one of the things i was told "a swisstool will never rust and a leatherman will dissolve from it" I have no rusty leathermen, and they get used plenty hard, and put away wet often. any rust I've seen on a leatherman has mostly just wiped off. I'm going to send the swisstool x in once I get done testing and see what victorinox does about the rust. I'm sure they will take care of it. Although, not as fast as leatherman would.

  I modified my Surge to include a chisel since I liked it so much.  My main work tools are Spirit on my pants belt, Surge on my work tool belt with Crunch just because.   

modifiability certainly does tip leatherman's way, at least for most of their tools. The juices I have and the one I just bought were assembled with rivets like the swisstools, and I think the squirts were similar.

oh and the crunch, I love using that tool. I bought a spare in my military discount purchase this year because I heard they might discontinue it, So i have a spare now.

[nate j]

Nice write-up.  Looking forward to further tests.

[cnlson]

I have a new Rebar and ST300 incoming, not sure which one to keep yet, but at least I’ll soon have another data point on current LM quality.

so after replying to you I decided to go dig in the drawer so I'd have more of an impression of those 2 vs the surge. And i have a few things to add, especially after spending all that time yesterday on the pliers the first thing I noticed on both the rebar and the ST are that the handles are not kind to your hand if you are putting a lot of pressure on the pliers. They have thin metal edges where you grip and dig right into your palm. If you will be wearing gloves you might be ok but they are not rounded and broad like the surge/charge/wave. They bite. I actually got out a blast as well. It's a discontinued tool and it had a novel way around the sharp edges. It added zytel liners to the edges to take the hotspots away and it worked fairly well at that. it is the same length folded and unfolded but 50% thicker than the rebar. and it fits the hand well.

[aicolainen]

so after replying to you I decided to go dig in the drawer so I'd have more of an impression of those 2 vs the surge. And i have a few things to add, especially after spending all that time yesterday on the pliers the first thing I noticed on both the rebar and the ST are that the handles are not kind to your hand if you are putting a lot of pressure on the pliers. They have thin metal edges where you grip and dig right into your palm. If you will be wearing gloves you might be ok but they are not rounded and broad like the surge/charge/wave. They bite. I actually got out a blast as well. It's a discontinued tool and it had a novel way around the sharp edges. It added zytel liners to the edges to take the hotspots away and it worked fairly well at that. it is the same length folded and unfolded but 50% thicker than the rebar. and it fits the hand well.

Thanks, mate!

I’m not familiar with those tools particularly, but I’ve had a 1. Gen SuperTool and still have a Sidekick, so the style of handles is not new to me.
The one I decide to keep will stay in my car (there’s a even a thread about it) and there is gloves there as well. It’ll be OK, but thanks for the heads up!

[gregozedobe]

The juices I have and the one I just bought were assembled with rivets like the swisstools, and I think the squirts were similar.

In the past LM did make a small number of Squirts with Torx screws rather than rivets, but they are very hard to find these days.  They are very popular with modders (for obvious reasons).

[aicolainen]

Do tell, what is it that you find sloppy? I have both the first gen and second gen surge and i dug out the second gen (post 2013) and it's large and cumbersome but i'm not finding sloppy.
 I have the rebar, st200, st300, st300m and i find the rebar just a touch too small and the st300 almost a little too big, If I had to choose between them for a work tool I would probably go with the st300

Sloppy was probably not the best way to describe how I perceive the operation, it better describes the execution - as compared to the Swisstool and my older Leathermans.
The lockup of the internal tools is kind of sloppy though. There's noticeable play/lock rock on every tool. Compared to my Spirit that has zero play.. that's not impressive.
I only have one other Leatherman with a bit holder, an older Skeletool CX, and the bit retention on the Surge is, well, actually quite sloppy compared to the Skeletool.
To fold and unfold the pliers feels anything but sloppy. It's really stiff. And to make it worse, the stiffness is very uneven distributed between the two handles, which maybe doesn't sound like a big deal, and it's not the end of the world, but it means I have to pay attention to how much force I'm applying to each handle so I don't bang into something.
To end this on a positive note, there's nothing to complain about concerning the outside tools. They all have a tight and confidence inspiring lockup, and decently smooth action for a tool that has seen very little use so far.

And to be fair, my expectations may have been a little too high. Even though the Charge+ TTi is probably their flagship model, the Surge, being the biggest and badest in the Wave line, has always subconsciously held that spot in my eyes. And the higher the expectations, the harder they fall :-)
Yet, even if I calibrate my expectations, this is still not impressive craftmanship in 2022.

[cnlson]

The lockup of the internal tools is kind of sloppy though. There's noticeable play/lock rock on every tool. Compared to my Spirit that has zero play.. that's not impressive.

so i dug mine out of the drawer again. There is a slight rock in my tools, doesn't seem like it would be more than a mm or so. does your tool have dirt in the catches on the back of the tools?

I only have one other Leatherman with a bit holder, an older Skeletool CX, and the bit retention on the Surge is, well, actually quite sloppy compared to the Skeletool.

so i had the same thing with a charge AL and i sort of fixed it myself. if you look there is a retainer on the bit holder and when you are removing and reinserting bits it can get bent so it does not engage with the little slot on the edge of the driver. I did fix it myself without sending it in but it was a serious bitch. you have to pry that little strip of metal out of the housing bend it back towards the bit then reinsert it. If I was you, i would send it in and have leatherman fix it. It's a 3 hands job.

To fold and unfold the pliers feels anything but sloppy. It's really stiff. And to make it worse, the stiffness is very uneven distributed between the two handles, which maybe doesn't sound like a big deal, and it's not the end of the world, but it means I have to pay attention to how much force I'm applying to each handle so I don't bang into something.

yeah mine was originally like that. i work at a desk and test software so i end up fidgeting alot, so i have taken to fidgeting with one of my leatherman. once you get it worn in. mine move very smooth. I don't lubricate anything until it moves smoothly. even if the resistance is higher than you'd expect. smoothness where it is the same resistance throughout the whole movement is what you want before you lubricate. If you lubricate before that point it will not wear in. I would suggest using water and soap to wash off the lubricant and then move it dry until the stiffness and movement is uniform then lubricate. i use tuff glyde about once every 3 months or so on the tool i am carrying at the time.

I will say, the swisstools I have, an old swisstool x in rough shape, an rs new in packageing, and a spirit. all have resistance, but it is different in that it seems uniform no matter the age or amount of use
once i cleaned and oiled the 24 yr old swisstool x it felt the same as the just out of the packaging swisstool rs. They do not seem to wear in. so that's somewhat of a flawed design by leatherman. but delegating the break in to the user is not always a bad thing.

[ToolJoe]

I've had both and find Vic MTs to be better built and better fit/finish.

[aicolainen]

so i dug mine out of the drawer again. There is a slight rock in my tools, doesn't seem like it would be more than a mm or so. does your tool have dirt in the catches on the back of the tools?

I haven't used it enough to pick up any dirt yet. If anything it has to be oxide residue or other residue from production. I'll give it a good splash of hot soap water and see if it improves. Right now it's at my office and I'm working from home, but I might pick it up later today. Thanks for checking!

so i had the same thing with a charge AL and i sort of fixed it myself. if you look there is a retainer on the bit holder and when you are removing and reinserting bits it can get bent so it does not engage with the little slot on the edge of the driver. I did fix it myself without sending it in but it was a serious bitch. you have to pry that little strip of metal out of the housing bend it back towards the bit then reinsert it. If I was you, i would send it in and have leatherman fix it. It's a 3 hands job.

Not sure how the LM warranty stuff works from Norway, if I have to send it back to HQ myself, I might just find it easier to pull out that 3. arm

yeah mine was originally like that. i work at a desk and test software so i end up fidgeting alot, so i have taken to fidgeting with one of my leatherman. once you get it worn in. mine move very smooth. I don't lubricate anything until it moves smoothly. even if the resistance is higher than you'd expect. smoothness where it is the same resistance throughout the whole movement is what you want before you lubricate. If you lubricate before that point it will not wear in. I would suggest using water and soap to wash off the lubricant and then move it dry until the stiffness and movement is uniform then lubricate. i use tuff glyde about once every 3 months or so on the tool i am carrying at the time.

No plans to lubricate. I'll give it the same regime of neglect as my other ones, and hopefully it will give in and become as smooth with enough use.

I will say, the swisstools I have, an old swisstool x in rough shape, an rs new in packageing, and a spirit. all have resistance, but it is different in that it seems uniform no matter the age or amount of use
once i cleaned and oiled the 24 yr old swisstool x it felt the same as the just out of the packaging swisstool rs. They do not seem to wear in. so that's somewhat of a flawed design by leatherman. but delegating the break in to the user is not always a bad thing.

I agree. My Sebenza was also a bit stiff out of the box, but there was nothing to complain about in the fit and finish department.

[cnlson]

Not sure how the LM warranty stuff works from Norway, if I have to send it back to HQ myself, I might just find it easier to pull out that 3. arm

Ok then if you have to, as i recall I worked it out. I had an ifixit tool kit https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Pro-Tech-Toolkit/IF145-307 and i used a lot of different things to try and work it out of there. I ended up bending it a little sidewaysand had to bend it back straight as well as bending it towards the bit so to speak. one thing that does not work is trying to just bend the end. looking at the tool i did it to and my current daily carry what i recalls is having to get behind the metal strip with a small tool and pry against the strip to lever the back end out.

one other option, if you have more money than time https://www.ebay.com/itm/325281916722 the surge comes apart with 2 t10 security torx as long as you mind the copper bushing orientation it is pretty trivial to swap a driver out.

[David James Inc]

4) I like OHO tools, this isn't a deal breaker (as multiple LM's I have don't have any), but it's a nice bonus on the Wave. A OHO Spirit with clip is on the list, eventually.

Ok I know this maybe blindingly obvious to almost everyone but not me, what is OHO? I saw OG initials further down and this was lost on me too.
It would be really nice if posters could post in words and not initials. I’m a busy person but can always find the time for complete words.

[Echotech]

Hi David

OHO one handed opening

Considering how often some terms are used we’re not all going to spell them out every time, but we all were in your position once so check this out

List of Popular Acronyms
 https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=11325&share_tid=2260&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emultitool%2Eorg%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D2260&share_type=t&link_source=app

[David James Inc]

Page saved. 

[nakken]

List of Popular Acronyms
 https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=11325&share_tid=2260&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Emultitool%2Eorg%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D2260&share_type=t&link_source=app

I didn't even know half of these myself

Thanks for sharing

[Echotech]