Scale Change Badge Attempt (and Questions a/o Scale Changes)

[Tuisto]

Hi all, I finally got up the courage to swap the back scale on my serrated Spartan. I was effectively panicking the entire time (hence why there are no photos during the actual change). I used the Watch Tool to take the scale off, then I put the plus scale on the back, then I used the blue clamp thingy to press the new scale onto the back of the Spartan. It went...more or less okay, but there's still a bit of a gap between the scale and the frame (up at the top, near the entrance for the plus scale scale tools). I squeezed that clamp quite hard, then put the SAK on a table and pressed down on it with my hands using my body weight. I think I put a pretty decent amount of force into it, but it didn't seem to make any difference. I also, inexplicably, decided not to use leather (vel. sim.) between the scales and the rubber bits on the clamp, which resulted in some pretty significant scratches to the brand-new plus scale  . All in all it was a successful scale change, as I managed to get the new scale on, and there isn't that much of a gap — but try as I might I simply could not get that gap to close... I wanted some advice because I'm going to go ahead and put the Rescue Tool Stay Glow scales on my Work Champ tomorrow (and I'll hopefully upload 'during' photos of that process). I'm a bit concerned at the amount of force required to press the 111mm scales onto the frame, since I've actually deformed two(!) Work Champ frames by dropping them from about three feet off the ground — one onto pavement and one onto carpet. So, I'm worried that in trying to press the Rescue Tool scales onto the Work Champ I'll deform the frame. Does anyone have any tips on how not to deform the frame when clamping the new scales onto the Work Champ? Thanks!

Photo 1 is tools used for the scale swap
Photo 2 is end result of the serrated Spartan with new (and now severely scratched) plus scales
Photo 3 is the gap between the frame and the scales on the Spartan

[Reinier]

I've scratched up brand new scales as well. Don't worry, we've all done it

Re. the gap: could be there is a tiny sliver if plastic inside the pivot hole preventing the scale to be properly seated?
Did you soak the scales in warm water before the scale swap?

[Tuisto]

Hey Reinier, no, I completely forgot to soak the scales. I did try to check to ensure there was no debris on either the frame or the new scale. But the more I look at the SAK, the more I think that the frame was actually just bent to begin with. And then that made me look at a bunch of my other ones and it turns out a lot are bent... They kinda canoe out and then back in again.

[IMR4198]

    There is often a little plastic behind the brass rivet ends.  You definitely should take something like a wire brush to clean it up before you put on the new ones.  Not soaking the grips was a mistake.  If they are not softened, the cellidor breaks off more and weakens the holding power of the new scales.  If the scales don't rattle when you tap them with a fingernail, I wouldn't get too concerned.  When you use a lot of force on the scales to seat them, it is possible to crack them.  Especially if they are not softened to begin with. 
     If you decide to take the new scales off to try to correct them, the holding power will definitely be compromised.  Likewise the old ones you pried off (cold?).  Both sets may have to be epoxied next time around.  I wouldn't toss the old ones, there is always somebody needing them for a repair.  Best wishes.  G
 

[LoopCutter]

I studied several YouTube videos before my first scale change.
My take away was that if you wish to reuse the old scales, soak the knife in warm water no warmer than 160° F for a few minutes to soften the scales.

My even warmed the new scales on my first install (the GiD, texture style) on a SE Spartan.    I had to pull out my portable vice. Lined the jaws with a towel, pulled open the cork screw, (makes a good hold point) and then slowly closed the vise jaws.  Eventually each scale seated properly and any gaps were closed.

On another scale job, cleaning under the scales of the YELLOW Spartan, and wanting reinstall the same scales, I took even more time being careful.
Soaked the knife for 5 minutes, in 165°F water.
Then separated one side at a time, soaking between each side to bring the temp back up.

For the installation, I added a very small drop of mineral oil to each point of contact on the scale before laying onto the knife.  Applying hand pressure seated that side on much easier.   Then repeated the other scale the same way.
Used the vice again and gently tighten and when done there were no gaps. Scales were tight, cleaned under and above.

I have an upcoming project to perform a scale color change on a new SAK. RED to BLACK, for statement improvement to make the knife MINE!

PLAN, PREPARE, and PRACTICE.   THE 3 Ps !

Hope to eliminate any exceptions. 

[Tuisto]

Okay, so for the next one, I'm definitely going to put the Work Champ and the new scales into a Ziplock and into some warm water. I'm going to maybe try actually one more practice round (putting another red plus scale on my 91mm Ranger) before I do the Work Champ Stay Glow conversion... So, here are my final questions (I hope):

How long do you recommend soaking the scales or the knife?
What do you recommend I use between the clamp and the scales in order to exert even force throughout the entire length of the scale?
Do you recommend brushing (with a teethbrush) both the rivets on the frame and the inside of the new scales or just the former?

P.S. this is why I love this site so much. You guys are all always so helpful and it's awesome to have such a repository of knowledge of SAKs and everything SAK-related. Thanks again, guys — it really means a lot!

[BPRoberts]

1. Not more than a few minutes. The scales are thin, so they got as hot as they're gonna get pretty quickly.

2. I usually just use an old t-shirt, rag, etc. I guess it does slightly "wobble" the pressure, but never in a way that I've seen make a difference.

3. I just do the frame, but I don't see how it could hurt.

If you're not comfortable w/ soaking, I've heard of people using a hair dryer, (warm setting) but never done it myself. I wouldn't worry, though. Vic's stainless is about as stainless as it gets, and you can just blast it out w/ canned air, hair dryer (cold setting), etc. afterwards and give the knife a drop of oil.

[LoopCutter]

  ^^^^

I use a small food container. Heat the water in a tea kettle and pour in the container monitoring temp with a meat thermometer.  If higher than 165°, add cool water to lower.

An idea, using you clamps, would be to have soft wood the length of the knife or longer, and place the clamp in the center range.

[nate j]

Vic's stainless is about as stainless as it gets

I would have zero hesitation about fresh water dunking or rinsing, and would even say drying is optional.  Never had a rust issue with a SAK.

Now, if it were exposed to salt water or chlorinated pool water or something, I would rinse thoroughly with fresh water at the next opportunity.

[Tuisto]

I had one really bad experience with getting a SAK wet (although, this was just one experience), wherein I completely soaked my camo Tinker to clean some gunk out of it, and then dried it, and used some WD-40 to get the water out of the pivot, and then I oiled it with mineral oil. But for some reason the darn thing never quite opened/closed the same. But what I'm hearing from you guys is that I really shouldn't worry about getting the SAKs wet. I've had some get caught out in the rain and I've definitely used some in snow and ice, but yeah, that one experience with the camo Tinker sorta put me off submerging them. I should also add that I've washed a bunch of models and never had an issue, but the camo Tinker situation really bothered me... I will definitely try it with the 91mm Ranger when I swap the back scale for a plus scale.

[LoopCutter]

WD-40 is no your friend with SAKs.  The result is it gum up the action of the back springs and gather gritty dust around the pivots.

To defeat, warm water, and blue Dawn, soak, r ice and repeat.  Maybe three cycles.

Then let dry, cool air, or just open and leave it completely dry.   Then knife pivot lube (KPL), or mineral oil.

Work into pivots by manually opening and closing each implement. 

[BPRoberts]

Yeah, WD40 as a last resort only, and clean VERY well promptly after.

[nate j]

WD-40 is no your friend with SAKs.  The result is it gum up the action of the back springs and gather gritty dust around the pivots.

It was 100% the WD-40 that messed up that Tinker, not the water.

[Tuisto]

Ah crap, I was wondering whether that might be the case... I had actually only used it because I'd read once that it does a good job getting water out of the pivot, and then to get the WD-40 out it's best to just put a bunch of mineral oil in the joints. But I see now that that was not the best idea. I think BPRoberts said above to use either canned air or a hair dryer on cold setting to get water out of the pivot, so I think I'll just try that. I was also always cautious with water because I didn't want to get water behind the scale (i.e. in the hollow cavity in the scales). But it seems that the overwhelming opinion is to soak both the SAK and the new scales before swapping, so I'll try that next. I only have one more plus scale and I was considering putting it on my Ranger but now I'm considering putting it on my Tinker Deluxe instead, since the former is really my camping SAK and the latter is one I'd be much more wont to carry in an urban setting where I may need a pen. Either way, the other red plus scale is next, followed by the real goal — the Stay Glow scales for my Work Champ.

Thanks very much everyone for all the recommendations and advice!

[Reinier]

Or put the SAK inside a plastic bag and then submerge the bag. Dry, warm SAK

[Tuisto]

Yes, that's a good point. That's what I'd intended the first time around and just forgot . Do you think it would work if I were to put the new scales in with the SAK in the same Ziplock when I submerge it?

[LoopCutter]

I kind of got the impression you are over thinking the procedure.

You soak the knife with the old scales in warm water to remove the present scales with less a chance of damaging.  So they maybe reused.

Many ways to dry the knife.  Hair dryer, cool or very low setting. Or, place in a bag of rice to draw the moisture out of the nooks and crannies, including pivots.

Lubricate with KPL or food grade mineral oil.

Then install the new scale(s).  The new scales do not need to be warmed or wet for install.

[BPRoberts]

I like warming my new scales as well, and I do think it makes a difference.

[LoopCutter]

I like warming my new scales as well, and I do think it makes a difference.

I do not disagree, as I have warm them too!
But the OP has the concern with moisture, the option of applying a droplet of light oil on the scales mounting points will also aid with slipping onto the mounting points as well.

[nate j]

It has been my experience that SAKs are pretty much impervious to moisture.

More than once, I’ve cut up an apple or something with a SAK, given the blade a quick water rinse or dunk, and then folded it up and put it back in my pocket (with or without a quick wipe of the blade).

When I clean up a SAK, I give it a thorough washing with warm water and dish soap, then a thorough rinse with warm water only.  Then I make sure it is really dry by…wait for it…letting it sit on the counter for a couple days.  Then I apply the tiniest amount (I use a toothpick) of mineral oil to the joints, and it’s good to go.

[Tuisto]

Okay, so I tried it with the warm water and it definitely seems to have done the trick. There's no gap whatsoever. I think I should possibly have used warmer water. I used a kettle to get it to ~70°c (160°f) but then poured some cool water into it in an attempt to get it closer to 60°c (140°f); unfortunately I think it ended up being a bit cooler than 60°c, but at the end of the day it seems to have done the trick. Thanks so much for everyone's support and recommendations!

[BPRoberts]

 

[Reinier]

That's great! Thanks for showing this

[LoopCutter]

Fantastic job!   

    Victory!

[IMR4198]

 

[AzteCypher]

 

Job well done!!

[Tuisto]

Thanks so much, everyone! Wish me luck — I'm going for the big swap tonight. Here are the materials, all prepped and ready for swapping. I'm going to be sure to get the water temperature under 70c since I think the Stay Glow scales have a lower heat tolerance than the cellidor or ABS. But I may be misremembering.

[nate j]

Thanks so much, everyone! Wish me luck — I'm going for the big swap tonight. Here are the materials, all prepped and ready for swapping. I'm going to be sure to get the water temperature under 70c since I think the Stay Glow scales have a lower heat tolerance than the cellidor or ABS. But I may be misremembering.

Good luck!

I actually think the cellidor (cellulose ester) would have a lower heat tolerance than the stayglow (nylon), but I suspect your plan will work fine.

[Tuisto]

So, I managed to mess up the Stay Glows... I did the exact same thing as I did with the Ranger but there are massive gaps now between the frame and the scale. I don't know what I keep doing wrong here... I thought I'd figured it out with the Ranger but apparently I didn't. It's extremely frustrating. This was like a one-time-only chance at putting Stay Glows on this stupid thing.

[IMR4198]

Photo needed.  G