Gerbers are C-R-A-P !!!!!!! (A warning for Flik fans)

[EM745]

And no, I'm not talking about the Suspension-based tools (although those are certainly crap too).

This afternoon I was showing my Flik to a prospective buyer. As he was trying out the pliers, he was squeezing them hard to see how they help up, coz see, he wasn't too sure about the sliding mechanism's sturdiness. On the 2nd or 3rd squeeze we both heard a light "click." He asked if that was normal. Ever the honest one, I said I had never heard it do that before. I took the tool from him and gave it another couple of opening/closing squeezes. It made the same click, and I could feel it in the handles too. I then gave it a really tight squeeze... and then it happened: after a big "clank" one of the pawls slipped passed its "open" notch into the "closed" notch. Presto! Broken Flik.  The little ridge seperating the two notches is ever so slightly deformed, just enough so that the pawl can no longer "bite" into it to maintain the open position. It sure didn't take much deformation (i.e. squeeze force) to produce this malfunction. What are those stupid pliers made of anyway, pewter?! Needless to say, the guy didn't want to buy it.

Hence forth I will forever discourage ANYONE from ever buying a Gerber multi. To those of you who already own a Flik: 1, my sincerest sympathies, and 2, do NOT use the pliers for anything other than tweezing your eyebrows (and even THAT might be too hard on them). And to those considering buying a Flik? DON'T!!!!!!!!!

I understand that tools fail sometimes, but this... this is just plain BAD tool design.

Now, I haven't contacted Fiskars Canada yet regarding the warranty on this P.O.S., but I will in short order. Thing is, I don't WANT a "repair" or a "replacement" or a same-value "substitute." I want compensation for the $100+ I threw out the window for this piece of garbage. No more Gerbers for me, Thank you. I'd rather them keep that sorry P.O.S. and send me nothing. I'm also VERY tempted to send them my Suspension, which I probably couldn't even GIVE away at this point.

And on THAT merry note: Leatherman FOREVER!!!

[edap617]

EM745, thank you for the warning.  

[WhichDawg]

lol! but tell us how you really feel!

but honestly, I'm sorry for that happening to you bro and thx for sharing.
hopefully they'll make it right, keep us informed.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I'm sorry to hear that mate, thats more than a little unlucky

Trouble is, it's still a very new tool, so you might have just found one of the Fliks potential problems that no-one else has discovered yet, or it could just be a manufacturing defect , either way it's a little harsh to write of all Gerber's mate, the Diesel and MP series tool's are pretty bombproof

[Roadie]

I do think you are being a bit harsh about the company on just one fault. Plenty of other companies have had problems, I've heard loads of complaints about Leathermans liner locks on their OH models, yet i don't think they are a crap company. Also the Flik has had lots of good press on here from quite a few members, yes its a complex design and probably has a few bugs in it but thats what you get for pushing your designs forward.

Like Mike says the MP and Diesel tools are all very good

[jzmtl]

Well, if you are going to throw either flik or suspension away, I'll take them. 

[scrappy]

Em745,

everyone has complaints and I have broken many tools abusing them bu the only tool that has ever broken under normal use was a gerber. I own probably at least 150 multitools and would have to say that compared to other decent brands the gerber brand does make crap imo. I have had more defects with their tools than any other brand.

[Spoonrobot]

I think that overall the Gerber line is a little spotty. They don't do a good job with widespread quality and do not inform their buyers very well of where the tools are made.

However, the MP600 series seems to be on par with the other major manufacturers and any flaws of function are just inherent in the operating mechanism of the sliding pliers.

The new wave tools (Flik/Freehand/Diesel) seem to be hit or miss. I've heard both glowing comments and disparaging reviews of each of the models from a wide variety of sources. It seems so easy to state that they have lowered quality and production checkpoints but I don't think it's that clear. Keep in mind that none of use present really knows what goes on at the design and production areas of the Fiskars Multi-Tool company. It's easy to disparage what may first appear to be a degradation of quality but in actuality may add life to the tool. The sliding mechanisms are much more complex and I would assume they would be more finicky to get right. There are the obvious things about quality like some of the metal parts on the MP series replaced with plastic on the new wave tools but these tools haven't really been out long enough to get a good handle on how they compare.

Then of course there are the non-verifiable things like steel quality/heat treat that the vast majority of users cannot test without destroying the tool or sending it somewhere to have a paid analysis done.

Personally, I would not hesitate to recommend the the American-made MP series to the typical user but would be more judicious with the new wave tools and would not recommend the butterfly variants.

[EM745]

Well, I'm still writing up the riot act e-mail I plan to send Fiskars Canada. In the meantime, here are some pics (which I also plan to send them):



The green outline shows the undamaged side. The red one shows a couple of TINY little indentations left by the pawl. As you can see, it's not much. But it's more than enough to allow the pawl to slip, rendering the pliers virtually useless.



BTW, wasn't the Flik's plier durability discussed not too long ago on this forum?

I do think you are being a bit harsh about the company on just one fault.

That's just it. The Flik doesn't have just "one fault." There's the scissors spring "bug," the misplaced nail notch on the philips driver, too wide a gap between the wire cutting edges, those plastic parts (?!?!)... and now this.

I would expect this sort of thing from a Suspension variant, given their iffy rep. But from a tool that's supposedly one of their "top of the line" models? And one that has BARELY seen ANY use?? Sorry, but to me that spells C-R-A-P. And yes, I AM pi--d over this, given that I blew away over $100 for the damn thing.

yes its a complex design and probably has a few bugs in it but thats what you get for pushing your designs forward.

Seems to me that this is a design that was "pushed" to market about 6 months too early. Given the high forces those little notches must endure even during moderate squeezing, they should've made them out of a separate piece of HARD stainless, and then bolted them onto the main pliers casting.

everyone has complaints and I have broken many tools abusing them bu the only tool that has ever broken under normal use was a gerber. I own probably at least 150 multitools and would have to say that compared to other decent brands the gerber brand does make crap imo. I have had more defects with their tools than any other brand.

Well there you go. You can add me to the list of Anti-Gerber-ers.

Bully to those who've had great luck with their 600's and Diesels. I still think the sliding pliers concept is inherently weaker than the traditional butterfly setup. I mean, just look at the Wave/Charge/Surge and where and how the squeeze load is transfered from the handles to the pliers.

Again, from this point on I'll do my darndest to discourage anyone from getting a Gerber. There are plenty of well-established (and ALL METAL) alternatives available from the other three major MT brands.

[Roadie]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Gerber then, i like them you don't

But there is this:
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,4867.0.html that is a run of Leatherman's top end tool with quite a big problem, so leatherman aren't all good.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

The thing you've got to remember is that most of the MT manufactures make the odd foul up (apart from Vic obviously, but then they've had more practice than all the others). It would be a shame to dismiss the whole Gerber line, have a play with a MP series tool, and you'll see there not at all bad

[J-sews]

My opinion for what its worth: Gerber is starting to reap what it has sewn.

After years of producing some damn fine multitools based on the 400 and the 600 frames, right here in the US of A, there has been a corporate decision to move production to east Asia. As such, the quality once associated with Gerber's good name has suffered. Already a new Gerber knife or tool does not command the premium price folks used to be willing to pay. It will only get worse if they do not overhaul their poor quality Chinese products and cheap designs.

[hawkchucker]

J-Sews has it right. I can be seen once and a while as a gerber hater. However it sems to only be the China made products. I have yet to have my MP 600 fail at anything and the tool is most likely the most abused tool that I own. I just feel that the USA made ones are the only ones that seem to have a quality control person that knows what to look for.

[EM745]

E-mail sent.

I wasn't nearly as "direct" as I was planning to be (flies and honey vs. vinegar and all that), but I did "firmly" get the point accross.

I'll keep you posted...

[Dtrain]

I am sorry for your luck with the Gerber.I think that all the brands have a glitch or two with their products.

I hope everything works out for you.

Dtrain

[ringzero]

The green outline shows the undamaged side. The red one shows a couple of TINY little indentations left by the pawl. As you can see, it's not much. But it's more than enough to allow the pawl to slip, rendering the pliers virtually useless.

yes its a complex design and probably has a few bugs in it but thats what you get for pushing your designs forward.

Seems to me that this is a design that was "pushed" to market about 6 months too early. Given the high forces those little notches must endure even during moderate squeezing, they should've made them out of a separate piece of HARD stainless, and then bolted them onto the main pliers casting.

Thanks EM745, for an excellent description and clear photos of this failure.

I almost ordered a Flik, but decided to wait a while longer to see more MTO reports on how they were working out.

Didn't realize the Flik design was so complex - which in itself provides more failure modes.

I agree that the Flik looks as if it might have been rushed into production without sufficient durability testing.  If more people report this same failure we'll know that was the case.  It could be that your Flik's failure was due to a manufacturing defect that is relatively uncommon.

.
 

[J-sews]

The green outline shows the undamaged side. The red one shows a couple of TINY little indentations left by the pawl. As you can see, it's not much. But it's more than enough to allow the pawl to slip, rendering the pliers virtually useless.

yes its a complex design and probably has a few bugs in it but thats what you get for pushing your designs forward.

Seems to me that this is a design that was "pushed" to market about 6 months too early. Given the high forces those little notches must endure even during moderate squeezing, they should've made them out of a separate piece of HARD stainless, and then bolted them onto the main pliers casting.

Thanks EM745, for an excellent description and clear photos of this failure.

I almost ordered a Flik, but decided to wait a while longer to see more MTO reports on how they were working out.

Didn't realize the Flik design was so complex - which in itself provides more failure modes.

I agree that the Flik looks as if it might have been rushed into production without sufficient durability testing.  If more people report this same failure we'll know that was the case.  It could be that your Flik's failure was due to a manufacturing defect that is relatively uncommon.

.
 

After reading EM's initial post, I took my Flik and repeatedly squeezed the snot out of it. No problems whatsoever.

However I do agree that the mechanism is overly complex and delicate. A great deal of plier force is bearing on two very tiny components.

[carl]

Gerbers are largely made up of castings which, in my experience, just don't hold up.  Castings are great for making complex shapes but have the distinct disadvantage of not being work-hardened like stampings and forgings.   This aspect of their design/manufacturing is a weakness no matter which country its built in.  I gave my early 'made-in-the-good-old-USA' Gerber away for this reason (yes, this was a problem even in the USA-built models).   

[Spoonrobot]

Castings are great for making complex shapes but have the distinct disadvantage of not being work-hardened like stampings and forgings.

Casting does not negate the ability to harden the steel properly. There are a few different ways to accomplish this with fairly similar results depending on the beginning material. The problem is we don't know if Gerber is hardening the cast items or how they are doing it.

Comparing my MP series and Diesel/Freehand to other tools I think that they are about on par with the industry standard for use of casting.

As near as I can tell on the MP series the only cast items are the plier head, philips driver and maybe the saw coupler. These items are typically cast by other manufacturers as well. On the Diesel/Freehand the only obvious cast parts are the plier heads, the rest of the implements appear to be stamped and finished.

I think the problem is not the production method since any given method can be used to produce a fairly equal level of strength in our use. The problem is most likely different steel composition and heat treatment (or lack thereof.) Nobody knows for sure what Gerber is doing to their steel or what exactly it is made of, this information has proven to be almost impossible to obtain from other manufacturers as well. Another issue with the "felt strength" of Gerber implements may be the fact that the MP series is significantly wider than comparative tools, allowing the user to exert more torque on the implements, creating more bent and broken drivers compared to the reasonably thinner tools.

Remember that casting in production is a tried and true method for producing tough, uniform shapes. Turrets for tanks were cast throughout WW2 and certain parts of armor are still cast today.

Overall I would be remiss to relegate the higher-end Gerber tools to the junk drawer. I have used them extensively and have had no issues with the tools due to construction or materials used.

Then again, I'm fairly lucky. 

[Benner]

It's a shame to see ALL of Gerbers products rubbished again down to another breakage.   All tools can break and every brand has the odd dodgy tool every now and then, but I don't think Gerber should be intantly ruled out because of it. 

I'm with Roadie on this one, Gerber DO make some good tools. 

[J-sews]

......Then again, I'm fairly lucky. 

This coming from the guy who Fragged his Charge.....

[Dunc]

......Then again, I'm fairly lucky. 

This coming from the guy who Fragged his Charge.....

(Image removed from quote.)

I've not seen this pic before , so thats another bust charge then .

Dunc

[Dunc]

It's a shame to see ALL of Gerbers products rubbished again down to another breakage.   All tools can break and every brand has the odd dodgy tool every now and then, but I don't think Gerber should be intantly ruled out because of it. 

I'm with Roadie on this one, Gerber DO make some good tools. 

Your right and I agree with you but I'm still glad I chose a Spirit over the Flick ( I came so close to getting one ) .

Dunc

[Benner]

It's a shame to see ALL of Gerbers products rubbished again down to another breakage.   All tools can break and every brand has the odd dodgy tool every now and then, but I don't think Gerber should be intantly ruled out because of it. 

I'm with Roadie on this one, Gerber DO make some good tools. 

Your right and I agree with you but I'm still glad I chose a Spirit over the Flick ( I came so close to getting one ) .

Dunc

TBH, I would (and will) do exactly the same thing, but that isn't because I have been put off of Gerber because they are apparently all "crap".

[Spoonrobot]

Yes, but not only did I not get dinged in the eye but I was able to find both pieces of the bit driver. A miracle considering how random their flight pattern was. 

so thats another bust charge then .

Pfft. I think it was the first reported Charge bit driver bust.

[Dunc]

Yes, but not only did I not get dinged in the eye but I was able to find both pieces of the bit driver. A miracle considering how random their flight pattern was. 

so thats another bust charge then .

Pfft. I think it was the first reported Charge bit driver bust.

So there have been more since then  and of course the springs flying off the holder .

Dunc

[Grant Lamontagne]

Sorry to hear about your bad luck with the Flik- and after you were so fond of it originally!  I can see why you'd be disappointed.

I have to say, I was somewhat concerned about that with my Flik when I got it, and so I purposely gripped it as hard as I could in hopes of breaking it, and nothing happened.  Yours may have been from an earlier run, a defective model, or your friend has much stronger hands than I do, because I didn't feel any weakness at all, let alone a catastrophic one like yours.

My suggestion is, get a replacement from Gerber (Fiskars) and trade it to someone else here for something you would like.  It's unfortunate, but I seriously doubt Gerber will refund your money on it- warranties are designed so the companies don't have to put out any actual cash.

I still like the Flik, and I'll continue to use mine for medium duty tasks, but I will keep this in mind every time it clears the sheath.  This is also why I wrote what I did last week about the SwissTool RS- simple, well made designs are their own reward.

Def

[Leatherman123]

I agree with you 100% Def! 

[Benner]

I agree with you 100% Def! 

Where was that butt kissing smilie again? 

Only joking. 

[Leatherman123]

LOL!