Leatherman SURGE - bad quality!

[Pacu]

I'd like  to say when i plunk down hard earned cash i better get a well made multi. Like my preference to Klein tools i believe Leathermans are top notch. I'm sure some get by with defects like all products but come on...25 year warranty for a tool. That's a keeper in my book. Although i've never had to use their warranty department i hear good things about them taking care of us.


a Surge fan

[thebullfrog]

I'm not talking about minor nitpicky things. Seeing TWO Charges with liner locks that were DANGEROUSLY weak is not being nitpicky. Having bent drivers from the factory that would barely open/close is not nitpicky. That is a defect. Period.

[jim guy]

why is it the charges seem to have the most problems? Almost all the charges I have had or have, has had some kind of a liner issue

[DaveK]

I'm not talking about minor nitpicky things. Seeing TWO Charges with liner locks that were DANGEROUSLY weak is not being nitpicky. Having bent drivers from the factory that would barely open/close is not nitpicky. That is a defect. Period.

You seem to accepting that your personal experience cannot be held up as evidence of anything, but then persisting with the idea that this is evidence of something.  You can see where the confusion lies for some of us no?

A true story. I had a brand new Lexus delivered once, and on the second day of driving it the engine malfunction light started coming on and I had to get it picked up and drive a hire car for a few days  This happened in 2001, the year that Lexus had achieved 1st, 2nd and 4th most reliable cars sold in Europe, with my model having zero reported breakdowns  The other new Lexus I had was perfect.

So, given all the evidence, were there quality problems with Lexus cars? Did 50% of Lexus cars have major defects?

Of course they didn't. And consequently, I didn't go posting rubbish on internet forums about it and just accepted that I'd had a bit of crap luck. I'm happy to report that I've avoided that crap luck c. 160 times with Leatherman tools.

why is it the charges seem to have the most problems? Almost all the charges I have had or have, has had some kind of a liner issue

A wild stab in the dark here, but maybe you've had more Charges? 

[jim guy]

I'm not talking about minor nitpicky things. Seeing TWO Charges with liner locks that were DANGEROUSLY weak is not being nitpicky. Having bent drivers from the factory that would barely open/close is not nitpicky. That is a defect. Period.

You seem to accepting that your personal experience cannot be held up as evidence of anything, but then persisting with the idea that this is evidence of something.  You can see where the confusion lies for some of us no?

A true story. I had a brand new Lexus delivered once, and on the second day of driving it the engine malfunction light started coming on and I had to get it picked up and drive a hire car for a few days  This happened in 2001, the year that Lexus had achieved 1st, 2nd and 4th most reliable cars sold in Europe, with my model having zero reported breakdowns  The other new Lexus I had was perfect.

So, given all the evidence, were there quality problems with Lexus cars? Did 50% of Lexus cars have major defects?

Of course they didn't. And consequently, I didn't go posting rubbish on internet forums about it and just accepted that I'd had a bit of crap luck. I'm happy to report that I've avoided that crap luck c. 160 times with Leatherman tools.

why is it the charges seem to have the most problems? Almost all the charges I have had or have, has had some kind of a liner issue

A wild stab in the dark here, but maybe you've had more Charges? 

I wish that was true

[glorn]

Is this thread over yet?

I thought we established that Leatherman is crap compared to the Swisstool, for every 10 tools Leatherman puts out, eight are greatly defective and poorly made, and soon that number of defective tools will reach ten out of ten.

Okay?

Does that about cover it?

Can we move along now?

[valvestem125]

Surely you jest?

Is this thread over yet?

I thought we established that Leatherman is crap compared to the Swisstool, for every 10 tools Leatherman puts out, eight are greatly defective and poorly made, and soon that number of defective tools will reach ten out of ten.

Okay?

Does that about cover it?

Can we move along now?

[Nikos]

I can't decide between and ...

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

OK let's keep this civil gentleman please.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yes, listen to Mike- everyone is entitled to their opinions, and no amount of badgering is going to change anyone's mind.  If you really want someone to look at something differently, you need to inspire them to look beyond, not beat them over the head with your point of view.

Def

[DaveK]

It's been civil hasn't it? Apologies if I've missed something of course.

[Grant Lamontagne]

So far- but threads like this often find themselves locked.  We'd like to avoid that!

Def

[jim guy]

i hope i haven't offended anyone by asking stupid repeat questions. im still a devoted lm user.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

No offence taken

[Pacu]

insert random Pusskins with a SAK here.

[jim guy]

Thats a lazy looking cat there!

[yud]

nice pic

[Crouton]

So if we want any semblance of an unbiased observation as to defect percentage by brand we should start compiling a list of all perceived failures in all tools owned or observed by Multitool.org members.  We'll need a peer review board to assess whether or not the reported failures are due to material defect, design flaw or user abuse.  Then we will need a statistician to give us a trend analysis so we can finally establish a solid metric of multitool quality by vendor.

Or we can all just continue to voice our opinions regarding tool quality and have fun doing it.  Yup that's the ticket.

I love all my Leatherman tools, faults and all. 

[yud]

So if we want any semblance of an unbiased observation as to defect percentage by brand we should start compiling a list of all perceived failures in all tools owned or observed by Multitool.org members.  We'll need a peer review board to assess whether or not the reported failures are due to material defect, design flaw or user abuse.  Then we will need a statistician to give us a trend analysis so we can finally establish a solid metric of multitool quality by vendor.

Or we can all just continue to voice our opinions regarding tool quality and have fun doing it.  Yup that's the ticket.

I love all my Leatherman tools, faults and all.  

  I take it you work for a government  

how it could would be have every one post how many new Leathermans they have handled in the last (say year), and of those how many were not up to snuff, or

Leathermans handled x 100= % of good Leathermans
       not up to snuff

[Grant Lamontagne]

So if we want any semblance of an unbiased observation as to defect percentage by brand we should start compiling a list of all perceived failures in all tools owned or observed by Multitool.org members.  We'll need a peer review board to assess whether or not the reported failures are due to material defect, design flaw or user abuse.  Then we will need a statistician to give us a trend analysis so we can finally establish a solid metric of multitool quality by vendor.

Or we can all just continue to voice our opinions regarding tool quality and have fun doing it.  Yup that's the ticket.

I love all my Leatherman tools, faults and all. 

I'll start assembling candidates for the Assessment Sub-Committee! 

Def

[yud]

So if we want any semblance of an unbiased observation as to defect percentage by brand we should start compiling a list of all perceived failures in all tools owned or observed by Multitool.org members.  We'll need a peer review board to assess whether or not the reported failures are due to material defect, design flaw or user abuse.  Then we will need a statistician to give us a trend analysis so we can finally establish a solid metric of multitool quality by vendor.

Or we can all just continue to voice our opinions regarding tool quality and have fun doing it.  Yup that's the ticket.

I love all my Leatherman tools, faults and all. 

I'll start assembling candidates for the Assessment Sub-Committee! 

Def

Well every industry needs its watchdogs look at toyota

[DaveK]

So if we want any semblance of an unbiased observation as to defect percentage by brand we should start compiling a list of all perceived failures in all tools owned or observed by Multitool.org members.  We'll need a peer review board to assess whether or not the reported failures are due to material defect, design flaw or user abuse.  Then we will need a statistician to give us a trend analysis so we can finally establish a solid metric of multitool quality by vendor.

Or we can all just continue to voice our opinions regarding tool quality and have fun doing it.  Yup that's the ticket.

I love all my Leatherman tools, faults and all. 

Well no. We could just state our opinions without making huge assumptions about things we don't have experience of. I think I'd prefer that

"I have had really bad experience with LM quality, so I'm not buying any more" is a legitimate statement and opinion.

"I've had a few bad experiences with LM quality control, so this must be evidence of a major failing in the QC process and I fear that the company is going down the pan / world is going to end" is hysterical overreaction, and not a legitimate statement or opinion.

ANY opinion posted on an Internet message forum is fair game for people to take apart though, surely?

[Crouton]

Well no. We could just state our opinions without making huge assumptions about things we don't have experience of. I think I'd prefer that

"I have had really bad experience with LM quality, so I'm not buying any more" is a legitimate statement and opinion.

"I've had a few bad experiences with LM quality control, so this must be evidence of a major failing in the QC process and I fear that the company is going down the pan / world is going to end" is hysterical overreaction, and not a legitimate statement or opinion.

ANY opinion posted on an Internet message forum is fair game for people to take apart though, surely?

Let me first state that I am not only in agreement about your assertion that all posts are fair game, but also that people should be careful when making unsubstantiated claims based on infinitesimally small sample groups.

The funny thing about opinions though is that people make them based upon their sample group.  So there are bound to be some outlandish claims from people who have had a bad run of luck.

My hero Sherlock Holmes once said “From a drop of water a logician could infer the possibility of an Atlantic or a Niagara without having seen or heard of one or the other.  “
Many have said similar things but I prefer this one from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.  My point being that it’s certainly not unpredictable that someone would have a low opinion, or indeed a high opinion if ones particular set of experiences lead them to believe that a tool is of low or high quality.  

The intent of my post was actually to derail this thread towards humor with a bit of sarcasm, but maybe a customer satisfaction questionnaire isn’t actually a bad idea.  If we could get some actual data regarding tool quality, design and general user happiness it might actually be some good stuff.  Of course it would be easy to abuse, but I suspect the tool manufacturers would actually love to have access to this data, if it were collected and audited with professionalism.

Then we could actually prove that Leatherman tools are better

Warning outlandish statement to follow:

The Leatherman Charge TTi is the best multi-tool in the history of tools, and inventions in general.  So there.  That is all.

[glorn]

Seeing TWO Charges with liner locks that were DANGEROUSLY weak is not being nitpicky.

We could form a committee, or.. we could all agree that the above statement is absolutely silly.

Or perhaps there is a "weakometer" that was used to determine this and I am merely uninformed.


Either way, I agree with Dave. An awful lot of Chicken Little in this thread.

[BIG-TARGET]

(Image removed from quote.)




insert random Pusskins with a SAK here.

I didn't know cat like being humiliated?

[DaveK]

Well no. We could just state our opinions without making huge assumptions about things we don't have experience of. I think I'd prefer that

"I have had really bad experience with LM quality, so I'm not buying any more" is a legitimate statement and opinion.

"I've had a few bad experiences with LM quality control, so this must be evidence of a major failing in the QC process and I fear that the company is going down the pan / world is going to end" is hysterical overreaction, and not a legitimate statement or opinion.

ANY opinion posted on an Internet message forum is fair game for people to take apart though, surely?

Let me first state that I am not only in agreement about your assertion that all posts are fair game, but also that people should be careful when making unsubstantiated claims based on infinitesimally sample groups.

The funny thing about opinions though is that people make them based upon their sample group.  So there are bound to be some outlandish claims from people who have had a bad run of luck.

My hero Sherlock Holmes once said “From a drop of water a logician could infer the possibility of an Atlantic or a Niagara without having seen or heard of one or the other.  “
Many have said similar things but I prefer this one from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.  My point being that it’s certainly not unpredictable that someone would have a low opinion, or indeed a high opinion if ones particular set of experiences lead them to believe that a tool is of low or high quality.  

The intent of my post was actually to derail this thread towards humor with a bit of sarcasm, but maybe a customer satisfaction questionnaire isn’t actually a bad idea.  If we could get some actual data regarding tool quality, design and general user happiness it might actually be some good stuff.  Of course it would be easy to abuse, but I suspect the tool manufacturers would actually love to have access to this data, if it were collected and audited with professionalism.

Then we could actually prove that Leatherman tools are better

Warning outlandish statement to follow:

The Leatherman Charge TTi is the best multi-tool in the history of tools, and inventions in general.  So there.  That is all.

A good point, well made 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I think the onus here is to realize that in fact, someone's opinions are based on their experiences, and while we may not agree, we should all be big enough to discuss these things without resorting to insults, personal attacks or other offensive comments, which fortunately, seems to be what's happening here.  While the Mods will continue watching this thread closely, it is working quite well so far, and I'm glad for that!  Mutual respect between members= good.

Keep it up guys!

Def

[thebullfrog]

Love the cat lol.

My thing is that all I (and most everyone really) has to go on when considering a purchase is their personal experience. For the most part my experience with LM has been fantastic. But as of late it has been less so. Still good overall, but worsening. A lot of people seem to think that I'm saying leatherman's quality is in the toilet (maybe because I said that....). But what I meant is that in my recent experience it's starting to feel/look as if they are having more issues than before. With all the issues I have come across in the real world, not the internet, I have become concerned that their QC is slipping. I'd love to be wrong, but when like half the LM tools I come across of late have so many issues brand new out of the box, it's hard for me to rely on other people saying "LM is just as outstanding as ever" as proof that there isn't a problem. Now obviously the inverse is also true, and when someone handles dozens of tools and never sees a single problem, I start to look like an idiot. I'm just trying illustrate what things have been looking like from my perspective.

P.S. I'm going to re-iterate once again that thos percentages I threw out were made up. The point of the nmbers wasn't accuracy, people missed the point entirely that I was simply trying to show an INCREASE. An increase from what to what is irrlevant. If I made an accurate number based on personal observation, it would have been more like 3% to 40%. Seriously, that's how many more problem tools I have been seeing lately. But it's pretty obvious that the overall increase could never be that bad.  Based on my personal experience however, that number IS accurate. So you can see why I would be so concerned.