Any love for Wenger?

[ColoSwiss]

Nice!  very similar, and amazing the sheath is almost the same as well, except yours has the nice Swiss Shield stamp as well.

On mine I presume "O.Dobler" was the owner of a shop in Appenzell Switzerland.  The blade on mine I'm sure is Stainless steel also.

repeating your info - ignore.

[ColoSwiss]

Comparing the Wenger to an old Western I bought in high school back in the 1960s.

The Western has better workmanship, is more solid, and feels better in the hand. I like Wenger pocket knives, but am not impressed with this Wenger hunting knife.

[ICanFixThat]

Figure while I had the knife out I'd take a couple of photos.
(Image removed from quote.)

So let's just see if everyone agrees; this large knife with the image of the Setter (US model 16958), but often called a Pointer, has the same tool configuration as the Wenger Champ, and based on the description in the '79 catalog it would be because they claim it's the largest Swiss Army Knife.  Karl's picture shows the same tool configuration also.

So I think it is safe to say that when the American marketing of the Wenger knives began they just renamed this knife to fit their new series they created for marketing purposes?

If no one has alternate versions of the 'pointer' then I'll update the Wiki to reflect this information.

Kirk listed some other model number for the 'pointer', but this number appears to be an error, or the number was different because it was a marketing version.

[ColoSwiss]

Under the name 'Setter (Pointer)' I have the number 16958. Under plain 'Pointer' I have two references for number 16995. Different importer? Slight difference in that the first has a key ring, the second has the short chain.

[North Man]

Interesting info all this,
I found some info in Boys life Dec 1981 Pointer with number 16995 but with small clip point blade + chain. In the same mag there is a Pointer with key ring and nailfile. Also Precise International.
the variation nailfile and clip blade is very common from Wenger.
In the 1979 catalogue -a Pointer 16958 is there with keyring and nailfile.

In 1977 the Sportsman presentation and personalized is mentioned, i believe this category started in 1975 and got more models, resulting in this new series. Then again not sure. There must be many variations and maybe they took the Wenger Champ and renamed it, not sure. But for marketing purposes it seems plausible.
 

[North Man]

In Popular mechanics in January 1977, the skier is mentioned. Mentioned as imported by precise international and one of the 28 latest Wenger knives. Sadly no pic here.

The Ski wax scraper was introduced in 1975, with or without the embossed i do not know? 1 or 2 years from 1975/76-77 is close. The skier also fit the interest that fit aswell. So the question is the icon Skier later? 77 or 79 or even early.

In Boys life April 1977 - three of the Fish related (seems like "embossed") are shown. With Chain. Small clip blade and one with the fl.ph.

In Backpacker Dec 1977 The new lines Sportsman Presentation and Personalized Models with embossed characters are mentioned, also mentioned as two new series. Wenger/Precise mention 40 models Original SAK available, by this they mean over all SAK i should believe.

Probarbly the series got developed into more models. And just that things are mentioned in 1977 should mean it took one or two years to manufacture, this is why i believe it was around 1975.

Icons on the scale of a Swiss army knife is not new in history and had this long before these dates. Just this particular series interest me alot. Wenger did also mentioned they used a marking tape in the embossed ones.

I remember there was some interesting info in the scanned newspapers aswell. atleast it would not be a surprise if it started with some models and it grew into more. Enough to make two series.

In Backpacker June 1976 the new improved chain shackle is put on the 1976 models.

So another part, it seems it is mentioned Precise and Wenger, it seems these got sold in europe aswell so this i why i believe many variations must excist.

[ICanFixThat]

Interesting

The Wenger Champ with a small-blade would be the original Matterhorn.

In the 1977 "boy's toys" advert the Setter has the nail file.

In the 1981 "Talking Swiss Army Knife" advert it has a small Clip Point and the number 16995.

Maybe it 'evolved'?

My copy with the Setter imprint has the nail file.

Does any one have the Setter imprint and the Small Blade?

Just to clarify; When I asked about 'versions' of the pointer I meant different tool configurations, rather than evolutionary variations.

[North Man]

Interesting

The Wenger Champ with a nail-file would be the original Matterhorn.

In the 1977 "boy's toys" advert the Setter has the nail file.

In the 1981 "Talking Swiss Army Knife" advert it has a small Clip Point and the number 16995.

Maybe it 'evolved'?

My copy with the Setter imprint has the nail file.

Does any one have the Setter imprint and the Small Blade?

Just to clarify; When I asked about 'versions' of the pointer I meant different tool configurations, rather than evolutionary variations.

I agree very interesting!

[North Man]

PS in March 1979 (Popular science)there is just in writing that the "Setter" is the worlds largest SAK and part of the new Sportsman series

[ICanFixThat]

PS in March 1979 (Popular science)there is just in writing that the "Setter" is the worlds largest SAK and part of the new Sportsman series

It seems we can correct one thing; it's the Setter, and forget from this point onward that some people started calling it a Pointer.  Maybe someone wished it was a Pointer, but no it was a Setter.  Maybe they didn't want Victorinox to use the name "Pointer"  arguably the "better" bird dog. 

[J Mackrel Jones]

Nice!  very similar, and amazing the sheath is almost the same as well, except yours has the nice Swiss Shield stamp as well.

On mine I presume "O.Dobler" was the owner of a shop in Appenzell Switzerland.  The blade on mine I'm sure is Stainless steel also.

A similar hunting knife by Wenger, with stag grips, is shown in The Swiss Army Knife Owner's Manual, with bayonets, and Swiss army blanket as background:

[ICanFixThat]

Nice!  very similar, and amazing the sheath is almost the same as well, except yours has the nice Swiss Shield stamp as well.

On mine I presume "O.Dobler" was the owner of a shop in Appenzell Switzerland.  The blade on mine I'm sure is Stainless steel also.

A similar hunting knife by Wenger, with stag grips, is shown in The Swiss Army Knife Owner's Manual:

Looks like it has the same sheath with the Swiss Shield as Karl's example.

[North Man]

PS in March 1979 (Popular science)there is just in writing that the "Setter" is the worlds largest SAK and part of the new Sportsman series

It seems we can correct one thing; it's the Setter, and forget from this point onward that some people started calling it a Pointer.  Maybe someone wished it was a Pointer, but no it was a Setter.  Maybe they didn't want Victorinox to use the name "Pointer"  arguably the "better" bird dog.

yes

[ICanFixThat]

Interesting

The Wenger Champ with a nail-file would be the original Matterhorn.

In the 1977 "boy's toys" advert the Setter has the nail file.

In the 1981 "Talking Swiss Army Knife" advert it has a small Clip Point and the number 16995.

Maybe it 'evolved'?

My copy with the Setter imprint has the nail file.

Does any one have the Setter imprint and the Small Blade?

Just to clarify; When I asked about 'versions' of the pointer I meant different tool configurations, rather than evolutionary variations.

I agree very interesting!

Error: "The Wenger Champ with a nail-file would be the original Matterhorn."
Correction: "The Wenger Champ with a small-blade would be the original Matterhorn."

[North Man]

yes, i just checked a catalogue so it is so

[North Man]

Nice!  very similar, and amazing the sheath is almost the same as well, except yours has the nice Swiss Shield stamp as well.

On mine I presume "O.Dobler" was the owner of a shop in Appenzell Switzerland.  The blade on mine I'm sure is Stainless steel also.

A similar hunting knife by Wenger, with stag grips, is shown in The Swiss Army Knife Owner's Manual, with bayonets, and Swiss army blanket as background:

excellent


By the way, what was it with Wenger and their plastic handles again, the dates? Since i have the info that Wenger has/had used the plastic tenite butyrate marketed by eastman since 1956.

[North Man]

This is the info i have :

1951  Grilon scales used on Soldier Knife.

1955  Wenger reinvents the butcher knife for the commercial market with the SWIBO brand, featuring unique blade designs of French influence, highly polished stainless steel blades, and yellow high brightness synthetic molded handles. The handles were made from Grilon, and set new hygienic and safety standards. These knives became very popular and set many of the hygienic and safety standards that are now law in North America. PS Today the plastic is mentioned as Polyamide 6.

1956 Wenger has/had used the plastic tenite butyrate marketed by Eastman since 1956.

1976  Handle scales info Tenite Butyrate bonded under 2000 pounds pressure.(Told in the special 1976 article)

[J Mackrel Jones]

This from the SAK Owner's Manual:  "In a brochure from the 1960s Wenger says that theirs was the first company to make a plastic handle on a folding knife - a claim also made by the American cutlery company PAL."   
The book also has a brief history of plastics - including the odd fact that in the days of nitro-cellulose knife handles (early 1900s) the Camillus cutlery factory in New York had a hinged roof so the roof could blow off and not destroy the building in the event of an explosion of this very volatile plastic.  Both Wenger and Victorinox switched from the somewhat safer cellulose acetate of the 1930s to cellulose acetate butyrate - later called Cellidor.

[ICanFixThat]

Messing around with some new scales I just got.

[ColoSwiss]

PS in March 1979 (Popular science)there is just in writing that the "Setter" is the worlds largest SAK and part of the new Sportsman series

It seems we can correct one thing; it's the Setter, and forget from this point onward that some people started calling it a Pointer.  Maybe someone wished it was a Pointer, but no it was a Setter.  Maybe they didn't want Victorinox to use the name "Pointer"  arguably the "better" bird dog.

I think it was called 'Pointer' longer than it was called 'Setter', though that appears to be the original name. Maybe in the list of models you need to include Pointer with a 'see Setter' note.

[ColoSwiss]

Nice!  very similar, and amazing the sheath is almost the same as well, except yours has the nice Swiss Shield stamp as well.

On mine I presume "O.Dobler" was the owner of a shop in Appenzell Switzerland.  The blade on mine I'm sure is Stainless steel also.

A similar hunting knife by Wenger, with stag grips, is shown in The Swiss Army Knife Owner's Manual, with bayonets, and Swiss army blanket as background:

Those 'stag' handles appear to be imitation stag.

[basilio]

this large knife with the image of the Setter (US model 16958), but often called a Pointer, has the same tool configuration as the Wenger Champ, and based on the description in the '79 catalog it would be because they claim it's the largest Swiss Army Knife.  Karl's picture shows the same tool configuration also.

So I think it is safe to say that when the American marketing of the Wenger knives began they just renamed this knife to fit their new series they created for marketing purposes?

Humm, as far as I remember the "Champ" was never equipped with a locking main blade (as the "Pointer/Setter"), so i don't think the "Setter/Pointer" was just a different name used for the "Champ" sold in the US market.
It is interesting to note that the 1979 catalog posted is using the same claim "World's largest Swiss Army Knife" also for the Matterhorn 

http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-browse_image.php?galleryId=99&sort_mode=imageId_asc&imageId=2665&scalesize=o

[ICanFixThat]

PS in March 1979 (Popular science)there is just in writing that the "Setter" is the worlds largest SAK and part of the new Sportsman series

It seems we can correct one thing; it's the Setter, and forget from this point onward that some people started calling it a Pointer.  Maybe someone wished it was a Pointer, but no it was a Setter.  Maybe they didn't want Victorinox to use the name "Pointer"  arguably the "better" bird dog.

I think it was called 'Pointer' longer than it was called 'Setter', though that appears to be the original name. Maybe in the list of models you need to include Pointer with a 'see Setter' note.

Absolutely; of course we would still mention the use of the name 'Pointer' in connection with this knife.

Humm, as far as I remember the "Champ" was never equipped with a locking main blade (as the "Pointer/Setter"), so i don't think the "Setter/Pointer" was just a different name used for the "Champ" sold in the US market.
....

That's a very good point to consider.  I must have been sleeping to miss the locking blade difference.  However; I can't beleive this configuration would go nameless outside of the US, so if not the Champ, then what name was it given in Switzerland?

[North Man]

This from the SAK Owner's Manual:  "In a brochure from the 1960s Wenger says that theirs was the first company to make a plastic handle on a folding knife - a claim also made by the American cutlery company PAL."   
The book also has a brief history of plastics - including the odd fact that in the days of nitro-cellulose knife handles (early 1900s) the Camillus cutlery factory in New York had a hinged roof so the roof could blow off and not destroy the building in the event of an explosion of this very volatile plastic.  Both Wenger and Victorinox switched from the somewhat safer cellulose acetate of the 1930s to cellulose acetate butyrate - later called Cellidor.

thank you, yes this is interesting.
Victorinox history i got also mention 1930s. I did do some research aswell that the formula got changed over the years. The last years information from Victorinox mention organic cellulose acetat,
from the manual: Cellidor is a trade name for organic cellulose ester, which is a modified natural product.
 Also from the manual (evolution on the 91mm) -1937 Handles made from cellidor replace fiber
handles.
I to had information that Wenger did use plastics very early but i can not confirm, and about the Eastman. This is just some information that i found researching, i do not know the full info since is just a small remark in Google books. If Eastman is the supplier or other at this time of history, not sure.

[North Man]

this large knife with the image of the Setter (US model 16958), but often called a Pointer, has the same tool configuration as the Wenger Champ, and based on the description in the '79 catalog it would be because they claim it's the largest Swiss Army Knife.  Karl's picture shows the same tool configuration also.

So I think it is safe to say that when the American marketing of the Wenger knives began they just renamed this knife to fit their new series they created for marketing purposes?

Humm, as far as I remember the "Champ" was never equipped with a locking main blade (as the "Pointer/Setter"), so i don't think the "Setter/Pointer" was just a different name used for the "Champ" sold in the US market.
It is interesting to note that the 1979 catalog posted is using the same claim "World's largest Swiss Army Knife" also for the Matterhorn 

http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-browse_image.php?galleryId=99&sort_mode=imageId_asc&imageId=2665&scalesize=o

Yes this i so
For marketing to have the "largest" knife is important. So this knife regardless of variation Clip Blade/nailfile keyring/chain Lockblade/regular.

It seems to me the most important factor is the numbers on knives, the names get confused.
The new 1979 catalogue is very interesting and nice. Shows many interesting knives.
PS have in mind folks that the locking feature is late 70s and we do not know all the facts on when the Setter/pointer arrived, since these series are mentioned in 1977, i guess variations up to yin yang

[North Man]

Forgive me for all the text

Here is what would be very important for us to know, regarding many factors:

We really need to find out whats been going on between 1975-1979. We need to know about the Universal Wrench/Phillips if 1977 or more early. Atleast the type we know.

The Skier or Ski wax tool 1975 or?

Sportsman Presentation and Personalized 1977 or more early.

The Packlock(if it got modifications back then, and or if it is even more early than 1978)

The Chain 1976 or more early?

The embossed imprints( when they first was used and why) or different made

It seems to me this period 1975 and up is very important just to be sure on the Champ/Matterhorn`s /Pointer or Setter and more. Without these we will never know

[victor7000]

Messing around with some new scales I just got.

(Image removed from quote.)

Very nice this black - orange combination 

[North Man]

i agree 

[J Mackrel Jones]

"I to had information that Wenger did use plastics very early but i can not confirm, and about the Eastman. This is just some information that i found researching, i do not know the full info since is just a small remark in Google books. If Eastman is the supplier or other at this time of history, not sure."

North Man - more from the SAK Owner's Manual - "A new type of celluloid, cellulose acetate, was introduced by Camille and Henri Dreyfus of Basel, Switzerland in 1904, and proved be more stable than cellulose nitrate. In 1929 the Tennessee Eastman Corporation added propionate and called it Tenite. In 1938 they made cellulose acetate with butyrate to make Tenite II. In 1952 the plastic called Cellite made from surplus stocks of WWII plastic aircraft windows was renamed Cellidor; chemically this was also cellulose acetate butyrate (CAB).  Cellidor has proved to both stable and very tough (see Test results)."

[Wootz]

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