Anybody have any experience or input on patenting an idea?

[Spoonrobot]

So, I was struck by an idea this morning. After a lot of thought and a long discussion with a friend I feel it is both feasible to produce and marketable/saleable both to the general public and a certain enthusiast community. To continue with the crumbs of information; it is a small part that can be added to an exisiting product or designed into a new item to maximize it's use. It's something that has not been tried and something I myself would like to use.

I don't have all the skills or tools to build the entire concept but the key piece would be easy to make and I am working on a prototype of sorts.

I've done a little research so I have a very small idea of the kind of time and money involved with obtaining a patent but would like to hear if anyone around these parts has any input on the subject of patents.

[Grant Lamontagne]

No idea, but I'm sure someone around here must...

You could try sending J-Sews a PM- I think he knows a little about them.

Def

[Biru]

Back when I was working in the guitar shop (early 90's), I came up with two ideas that were pretty good. On one, the item was easily to manufacture (for someone already set up to do so, that is) and should be inexpensive. One of our factory reps suggested I look into patenting the idea. So I got a patent package from the government-you may be able to get them online now. I was a bit knocked out by the up front cost to search for possible infringements-if I remember correctly, a couple of thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact procedure, but I believe they recommended getting a patent attorney for submissions. In the end, I remembered Edison's comment "A patent is just an invitation to a lawsuit." Or thereabouts. Anyway, by then I was burning out with the music stuff and quit the idea. Still, it would be fun, I think, to say "I've a patent for that..." Good Luck, Bill.

[Spoonrobot]

Thanks for the input so far, I'm going ahead with my idea.

From what I can glean from speaking with people and googling I need to go ahead and get some drawings and 3D renderings done. After that I'll file for the beginning stages of obtaining a patent (search and so forth) and then move forward while it is pending.

I'm going to work on having a prototype made and deciding if I want to pursue this by myself or with investors.

I also need to decide if I am going in to sell the idea to an established manufacturer or if I want to invest the great amount of time and money to start my own company.

It's all very exciting.

[Sea Monster]

Hmm, now I want you to get it patented so at least you can tell us what it is!

[Benner]

Hmm, now I want you to get it patented so at least you can tell us what it is!

I was thinking that too.  I'm intrigued now. 

[Spoonrobot]

I didn't want to lead you guys on, but I suppose that was unavoidable. I'll update when it gets to stage where public unveiling won't kill the concept.

Nomad, I don't think you'll be very impressed with the final product. Doesn't seem your cup of tea.

Benner, I suspect you'll be excited when you see the product. It's something different in a hobby that has too much of the same.

Don't worry, when it gets into production in a few years I'll kick back some samples.

[Benner]

I'll look forward to finding out then mate. 

[bobofish]

I certainly don't want to discourage you, there are a lot of fields left to be plowed in the world of inventions, and a lot of money yet to be made. That said however, you shouldn't skip down the street whistling with happiness that the world is now your oyster because you invented something.

I've met a lot of people who've invented things in my life, some of them great new things, some of them just ho-hum. I've invented a few things myself, and had one invention stolen from me that would've made me a fortune. Inventing is a tough business, and one prone to a lot of dissappointments.

Often, inventions just get stolen even though they're patented. An older man I knew invented a totally revolutionary valve for trombones and other brass instruments. He had a good friend's best friend come into it with him and put up about 40% of the capital for development. Over the next couple of years they got two patents. The first one was a more simple version of the design, which was essentially a prototype of the second patent that was the real deal. One day, the partner up and left without leaving any kind of word. He took the design and sold it to a newish trombone company in the Midwest. The design he sold was not nearly as good as the second patented design, and had numerous performance flaws. He was able to sell the first design due to a very very technical loophole in the first patent. The second patent was rock solid in my friend the old man's name. This design ended up sitting on a shelf until the year before the patent expired. Mr. Thayer was the name of the old man, and he had finally made a deal with the Edwards trombone company to use the "real" thayer valve. The reason Edwards finally went for it was that the warranty issues from the first valve design were really costing them. The next year the patent expired, and Edwards changed the name of the valve they were using to the Thayer valve without paying Mr. Thayer anything. Mr. Thayer died a couple years later after having sold his house, and all his assets. Bad story. Now keep in mind this was not a Google type money machine, nor was it a better way to slice bread, but it was a potentially lucrative thing that was the tops in the market, bar none. I have two of Mr. Thayer's valves on my Bass trombone, that he installed himself, and they are flawless. No problems for a decade. Lubricate with water once a year. Edwards trombones with the old valve need to be lubricated daily and calibrated about twice a year.
I could go into a lot more detail, including some more inventions Mr. Thayer and I were involved in, but you get the point.

Another man I know came up with a better tweeter for stereos. He spent the next 20 years trying to get someone to buy the thing. He had an office, a couple of employees, and numerous big big budget deals that fell through. He had one deal to supply the tweeters for every single GM car when GM's president thought that the other car companies had better stereos. The deal fell through for no particular reason. Another deal would have put the tweeters in every Ford car with upgraded stereos, still a great deal. That deal fell through when another guy who had invented a new tweeter (how many of those guys are there?!) swooped in and undercut the other guy by 5 percent. I haven't spoken to the guy for a few years, but I would be willing to bet my left ball that he will be trying to sell his tweeter, unsuccessfully for the next 20 years. His biggest problem is that his tweeter, although great sounding, sounds like a tweeter. To the average Joe, and even to the average Big Three car executive, he's just another potential vendor.

Another guy I know is a mathbook writer, and once in a while comes up with a cool little gadget and patents it just for fun. He has framed patent forms on the wall of his den and shows them off to friends. He makes good money, and sees it as a hobby. He invented an improvement for frisbees that puts a little cone in the center of the frisbee, facing skywards. It makes the frisbee easier to catch with one hand, and drastically improves aerodynamic performance. He shopped the idea around, and one of the frisbee companies bought the patent from him for the better part of a million dollars and put it in their file. They never used it, they just wanted to make sure that nobody else did.

I have my own inventions, but I got burned once when I asked a step-relative-in-law who was an engineer for his opinion. I was all of fourteen, and he said it was great. Next thing I know he lives in a bigger house and the invention is all over the market. It was something involving mountain bikes. Now I'm in your shoes with something that could improve the fishing experience dramatically, and is so obvious the people I've showed it to have slapped themselves in the head saying "why didn't I think of that!" I don't want to give the invention away for free, and don't want to spend the next 20 years working on only that.

These are some of the words of wisdom I've gotten from inventors: Assuming your invention is a genuinely good idea, many companies will either wait out your patent, if the marketplace is a closed one. Example? The musical instrument industry; there are only a few main manufacturers, almost monopolistically so. The manufacturers know they can afford to wait 8 years till your patent expires.
Sometimes the manufacturer will simply disregard your patent, with the knowledge that they have more money for lawyers than you do. In the legal system, might usually makes right.
And then there are the companies that will actually do right by you, recognize what you have as something great, and work with you as a partner to make something better.

The first thing you need to do is make a Grandma patent. Draw up and describe, in the best possible detail what it is you have. The more detail the better. Pictures if possible, prototypes if possible. Put all this crap in a box and mail it to yourself and one other person certified registered insured mail. Do not open the box when you receive it. This is a box that shows you have intellectual property rights to the invention. It is not a patent, but it holds weight in court, and it also legitimizes any patents you may get in the future. Remember that the US patent office is drastically understaffed and underfunded and has been for a couple decades. The clerks that work there do so because they haven't found a better job. They are not always thorough. And lawyers can take advantage of that.

If you have this grandma patent, you can then proceed to feel out investors and manufacturers without the 100% chance that they will just say "oh ya, I thought of that yesterday, thanks for stopping by."
When you go to manufacturers, engineers, or anybody else somewhat qualified to give you a better opinion of your invention than your wife or dog, ask for a "good faith review," and try if possible to get them to sign a form saying it is a good faith review. No money or other remunerations (like free Fishing rods) are changing hands for any rights to your design. You will almost never be able to get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but try anyway. Get some unbiased opinions. You and your 10 buddies may think your invention is great, and it may be. A neutral third party may tell you it is a total dog for xyz reasons. This is an important step before you start dumping money into the process.

In any business dealings where this invention comes up, PUT IN WRITING what everybody's rights, responsibilities and obligations are. There can be no confusion unless you would like to lose your invention and potentially face litigation. If somebody puts up 10k with you, is that development money or venture capital? Does it entitle them to simple interest like a bank loan, or a percentage of the business? If they put up 10k, how big of a share does that represent? You have to be realistic and fair with your investors about what the actual idea was worth vs. the capital. If you put up no money but the idea and they put up all the money, does that represent a 50/50 split or something more or less favorable to you? And don't just assume that a bank loan is an expectation of simple compounded interest payments. It's happened more than once that a bank saw an idea take off and tried to pass the simple loan off as venture capital. You need things in writing just as much as they do.

Once your invention gets off the pure drawing board, set up an LLC. It's only a couple hundred bucks a year, and protects your assets. You become an officer in the corporation and one of the primary shareholders. This is also a very prudent thing to do when you have investors. They won't be able to take their share out of your washing machine. Also, having a corporation with limited liability and a corporate title means you have moved out of your mothers' basement and at least into her garage. It gives you a little extra authority. Not much, but at least more than Billy Bob who invented a Better Beer in his backyard.

This may sound like a lot, but welcome to the world of being your own man with responsibilities. With responsibility also comes liability.

If you have a genuinely good invention, go for it. But make an educated decision whether it's worth the time and effort. Do a cost and benefit analysis.

FYI getting something simple patented costs between 5-10 grand. It can cost much more, but it rarely costs less.

Also, small companies screw you less often than large companies, but they cheat you more often. Pay attention!
Don't rely on handshakes or peoples' word. It means nothing these days. Get everything in writing. An oral contract is only worth something when either both parties agree in front of a judge what the terms of the contract were, or if there was an impartial witness. This is rarely ever the case. Ever watched People's Court?

And it wouldn't hurt to hire a lawyer if your cost/benefit analysis says you have at least a 50% chance of being able to make money with your invention.

Don't get discouraged, there's a lot of people who have done well inventing things. Some of those things are search engines, and some of those things are 25 cent doodads. Either way they can make you money if people want them and are willing to pay a price for them that is higher than your cost of manufacturing, shipping, accounting, debt service and marketing.

The statements I've made are not the final arbiters of truth in patent law. They're just things I've learned and experienced. Don't decide your course of action just based on me. Afterall, the one invention I had that went to market made somebody else money, so obviously I'm not an expert. 

The first

[J-sews]

I don't have anything to add to that great post from bobofish


On a related note, the machine shop where I work has done (and is currently working on) a number of prototypes for inventors, both from within our company and from the outside. Confidentiality agreements are the norm and are honored religiously - anything less and our hard earned reputation would suffer.

So that's my advice; once you are sure you have a good idea with real potential, have the prototypes made by a reputable company that is in no way involved with the market catagory your new invention falls into. 

[Spoonrobot]

bobofish, thank you for taking the time to write that all up. It's an immensely useful amount of information that has helped me frame up my perspective.

and sees it as a hobby.

This is kind of how I see my idea right now. It may be a good investment, it may be a million dollar idea but at the core it's something that is fun and interesting to work on and is a good way to learn about the invention/production/business world.