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Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY. 11162

No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« on: December 20, 2012, 02:22:23 PM »
As promised in another thread I have put together a photo essay on the process of fitting Wenger scissors into the 84mm size Victorinox knives.

As a bonus, while I was at it, I decided to see if the Wenger saw can be fitted in a similar manner. (yes it can)

On the subject of the Wenger parts, if you pick up an eBay Handyman or Forester you can get both scissors and saw in one hit. As these tools are generally used less than the blade they are normally in good condition, even on tired looking knives.

For this demonstration I will use a Victorinox Tinker small as the Base knife, a Recruit for the two backsprings, Wenger scissors and saw from a Traveller and a Backpacker and a pair of my own Carbon fibre frames/scales. When we get to the end, we will have an Artisan clone (Carbon). 
I much prefer the name Artisan to Fieldmaster-small. That sounds too much like a vertically challenged DJ to me.
If we started with a Tourist (corkscrew) we would get a Huntsman-small.

So, without further ado, let us begin...

I won’t show breaking down the donor knives, I think anyone can figure that out, and it’s covered in other threads.

After the strip, the parts are cleaned and then have an appointment with my buffing wheel.  Hey... we want this thing to look pretty.

This ends us up with a pile of parts.


And here is the secret to this mod...  grab a couple of tools from your junk box or use parts from the donor Recruit (actually, check to see if they are better condition than your base knife first.) and make the two parts seen here. Mine were made from a 91mm opener and a borked main blade. These go on the "short" end of the recruit backsprings and allow a double end spring to be used for a single tool layer. They also act as the rest that the tool sits on in the closed position. The one for the saw needs to be angled so the saw sits on its end and not on the points of the teeth


Carbon fibre frames which I started making for a recruit but drilled the 4th hole in one so I had them “spare” and they are perfect for this job.


Here are the parts from the Tinker-small


The Wenger parts I’ll be using. This is the older style saw with a nail nick, later ones are a tooth longer and protrude past the end of the rest similar to Vic’ saws.  The later Wenger saws are also slightly lower in profile at the tip and may look slightly tidier in the Vic frame.  Not that the one I’ve used here sticks out excessively anyway. In fact after tuning the height of the rest it sits with the nail nick just comfortably above the scissors but the overall profile is still lower than the main blade, just like it should be.


The Recruit backsprings. These drop straight in with the pin positions of the Tinker, so no hassles there. Use the blade layer spring (the thicker one) for the scissors and the opener layer spring (thinner) for the saw.


For the knife I’m building here I need three liners. Luckily I have plenty of recruit liners in my junk box so I was able to find three to use. I know they’re not pristine, but I like reusing old parts, giving old knives new lives, you could say.  If I was doing this mod to a new Cadet or Bantam I would probably make new brass or titanium liners.


Peen one end of a set of pins to get started. If you are working with a Celidor scaled knife you will thread a bushing onto each pin too... you did save them when you broke the donor knives down right?


Thread the front scale onto the pins, I prefer working in this direction for a couple of reasons. Firstly you have a flat side to build up from without the corkscrew or driver sitting out past the frame and secondly your nice pre peened heads on the pins will end up on the front of the knife and the peened in-situ tails will be round the back.  Notice the Mylar washers around the pins, I find the carbon frames can be a bit draggy if I don’t fit these. Shim brass would work just as well.


Opener layer built up


First liner fitted


Saw layer built up including close-ups.  Note: There was no grinding or cutting work performed to get the saw and backspring to mate up like this, it just fits.




Scissors layer, again no work to the tool or backspring, they just fit.




Blades layer going together


The assembled knife... it’s peening time.


I use an old liner and a pair of flush cutting side-cutters to get the length “just right” and consistent.


A quick touch with a fine file


and...


A good thing about the carbon fibre is that it is very resistant to marks, with a steady hand and a bit of care I can get away without needing to protect the scales. I’d NEVER try that with Alox.


All peened up, and a light touch on the riveted tails with the buff and everything is smooth and shiny.


A few close-ups of the technical parts.







The finished article...





All the layers have good snap open and closed and as you can see from the photo's the Wenger tools fit in nicely and don't look obviously out of place.

I'm happy enough with it that it will feature prominently in the EDC rotation.

If I was doing this again I would probably look for a sportsman to get the nail-file, but I also prefer the Phillips to the corkscrew, so that would mean three donor knives. but you can always build something up out of the leftovers.

Thanks for looking.  I hope I have inspired some of you to give the Wenger scissors mod a try.
It's certainly easier than finding genuine 84mm Vic scissors (I have a pair but they're probably going in my Cadet.) and I'd say it's a bit easier than hacking 91mm scissors and spring into the 84mm chassis.

Just realised I didn't take closed tools pics of each layer to show how they sit..  :facepalm:  next time, I'm not pulling it apart again now.

cheers
Peter

No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 03:16:35 PM »
Fantastic!  Really really really really great!  Innovation galore!  New scissors, new saw, carbon fiber, Mylar, even recycling!  Glad I could give you a touch of inspiration too! 

One question though, could backtool springs be used for the scissors and saw springs?  Or are recruit smooth backsprings required due to space requirements? 

You sir have officially blown open the 84mm mod scene, there is gonna be some scary stuff soon.

"Space Artisan!"
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 03:38:30 PM by papercut »

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
Hero Member Posts: 843 The Yellow One
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 03:48:54 PM »
Nice job!

A few things though:
How exactly did you account for the difference in thickness between the scissors and the can-opener rest?
You used 91mm parts? Aren't they wiffling around due to their larger pivot hole?

Can you take an image like this?



I'd love to see how the springs align with opened scissors and saw.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 06:15:37 PM by crackout »

Say my name.
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,670 SAK Surgeon
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 04:31:31 PM »
Bravo!  Great to know the scissors can be moved there.   :salute:

I do like the Wenger scissors, it's just the bobbing up and down part as you cut that kept me from loving them.

But.. now there is a possible solution if you took two backsprings of half thickness, one for the scissors spring action and one to keep them open.  Ive wanted to do that mod for awhile, but now you've shown I can do that mod AND keep it on a Vic.  So... Someday I gotta try that.  The list of cool things to try is getting to long though.  :D

Keep up the great modding work, and I look forward to you next trick!

PM me or email sakmodder [at] gmail . com if you are looking for custom SAK work.

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Wielder of the Bow of Banishment. Admin Team Point Of No Return Posts: 31,268 El Presidente del Fan Club Micky D
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 06:46:56 PM »
Excellent walk-through mate. :cheers:

Try not to be the person who blunders around and causes everyone else to get out the way.  Everyone else thinks you're a utter...
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,134 I may get older but I refuse to grow up.
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 08:01:42 PM »
Excellent walk-through mate. :cheers:

+1 Agree. :salute: I think you finally solved a very old problem. Sticky material I say. :D
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 12,892
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 08:05:10 PM »
Excellent walk-through mate. :cheers:

+1 you make it look easy!

Everything’s adjustable
Ambidangerous Mistress of Mod Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,072 I'm not all bad, I'm just drawn that way.
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 09:15:16 PM »
Love it :salute:

Really nice job, and superb pics for everyone else to be inspired by :D

A dyslexic man walks in to a bra...

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Zed gb

******** *
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 09:24:44 PM »
Amazing work mate  :drool:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,620 Τετραφάρμακος
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 09:44:26 PM »
Work of Art!
And excellent lanyard choise too.
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 10:11:59 PM »
more pic's of the fitting together









There is a little bit of clearance on the sides of the spacer in the scissors layer, but it's 0.4mm spread over the two sides... It really is negligible. I guess I could hunt out an old thick tang main blade, or make a custom spacer from aluminium,  but this works and it's easy to do. I'm planning to EDC this knife for a while as a bit of a road test ,so we'll see how it holds up.

The spring tension holds the parts in place without them rattling around, no different to the oversize hole in the locking Wenger screwdriver. The difference in size in very small and in fact it probably helps things line up.

Thanks for the props everyone. I'm really just doing this stuff for fun and having nice people say nice things about it makes it all the more enjoyable.

Hero Member Posts: 843 The Yellow One
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2012, 01:41:28 AM »
Are the springs flush with the liners once the tool is exposed?

Say my name.
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 02:37:06 AM »
As assembled the two recruit springs sit about 1mm proud in both open and closed position for both scissors and saw.
This could be tidied up with a little light grinding on the pad of the working end of the spring.  I guess I'm a bit of a 90% kind of guy. I tend to get distracted by the next  :gimme:shiny thing before I get the last of the fine tuning and polishing finished.

No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2012, 09:38:15 AM »
Now that I have acquired pretty much all the donors I need for my 3 potential mods- farmer plus scissors, mini farmer plus scissors, and one more secret mod, I think I'll heap even more praise on ya!  Great job man!  After years of folks complaining about the scissors and limited saws on 84mm, the (perhaps all too obvious) solution has been found.  Maybe the folks at Vic have been secretly chuckling about our ineptitude-in a Swiss accent "it fits right in, can't you see?!?"

If anyone has a waterjet, I'd prob go in on a couple sets of precut 84mm CF scales if a group order was put in.

Cheers

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 23,471 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 03:07:18 PM »
Very nice job :tu: JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR
No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 01:08:49 AM »
Bravo!  Great to know the scissors can be moved there.   :salute:

I do like the Wenger scissors, it's just the bobbing up and down part as you cut that kept me from loving them.

But.. now there is a possible solution if you took two backsprings of half thickness, one for the scissors spring action and one to keep them open.  Ive wanted to do that mod for awhile, but now you've shown I can do that mod AND keep it on a Vic.  So... Someday I gotta try that.  The list of cool things to try is getting to long though.  :D


Keep up the great modding work, and I look forward to you next trick!

How would you get two half thickness backsprings?  Grind down two springs or are there half tickness springs available?

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,670 SAK Surgeon
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 01:12:08 AM »
Bravo!  Great to know the scissors can be moved there.   :salute:

I do like the Wenger scissors, it's just the bobbing up and down part as you cut that kept me from loving them.

But.. now there is a possible solution if you took two backsprings of half thickness, one for the scissors spring action and one to keep them open.  Ive wanted to do that mod for awhile, but now you've shown I can do that mod AND keep it on a Vic.  So... Someday I gotta try that.  The list of cool things to try is getting to long though.  :D


Keep up the great modding work, and I look forward to you next trick!

How would you get two half thickness backsprings?  Grind down two springs or are there half tickness springs available?

Yep grinding down thicker ones.

PM me or email sakmodder [at] gmail . com if you are looking for custom SAK work.

Modding thread : Here
Website : WWW.SAKModder.com 
Facebook : SAKModder
Instagram : robertjlessard
Youtube : www.youtube.com/robertjlessard
No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 07:47:02 AM »
Aren't the Wenger pivots a touch wider than 84mm vics (2.5mm rather than 2.2mm)?  Is that even enough to make a difference if the pinning is done correctly?  Or would the spring give enough pressure to even things out?

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2012, 02:01:04 PM »
How about this for a logo for these hybrid SAKs


No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 10:45:36 AM »
It looks like the CF is quite smooth.  Does the sak feel slippery in your hands?

Cheers

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 12:09:46 PM »
I've just done a hands on side-by-side comparison with a pair of new condition Vic' cellidor scales and the CF is a little more grippy than unworn standard scales.

Kind of like the difference between running your finger along Perspex (acrylic) and Lexan (polycarbonate). they are both smooth, but your finger glides along one and drags a little on the other.


Sr. Member Posts: 460
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2013, 02:12:36 AM »
did you ever try the wenger file in place of the vic file?

thanks.

No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2013, 04:05:58 AM »
did you ever try the wenger file in place of the vic file?

thanks.

Only got one Wenger with a file and that's a toolchest and I don't want to pull it apart. But it should fit just the same as the saw.

Sr. Member Posts: 460
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2013, 02:53:58 PM »
thank you.

and thank you for this thread.  I will be attempting this when work slows down a little.

have the donor knives,  just need to sand down some pin stock

I'll be attempting to make an awl/file combo like i saw a modder do

probably try it on the wenger file first just in case something goes wrong.
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2013, 10:57:59 PM »
ah, I thought you meant the big metalsaw/file...if you are meaning the nail-file in place of the small blade, yes I have fitted then to Vic' knives. they need a very slight amount of material removed from the back end of the tang where the blade sits in the closed position to make the blade sit a little higher so the nail nick is accessible.
Go very slowly with a fine stone and check often, it only takes a fraction of a mm at the back of the tang to lift the tip of the blade several mm.

No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2013, 07:31:40 AM »
Still super inspiring mod. How is it doing as an EDC?

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
No Life Club Posts: 4,569 Is there a cure for multitool separation anxiety?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2013, 07:51:16 AM »
  Looks rather spiffy. When you taking orders?  :D

• Leatherman Charge TTi (Mod) • Leatherman Signal • PocketToolX Piranha • Wenger 16520 Original Issue • LED Lenser M5 •
• Weber Y2K6 • Seagull S8 • David Hudson Bloodwood Didgeridoo •
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 12:43:17 PM »
The carbon seems to be standing up to use very well. The only "problem" with this knife is that the saw I used is very blunt and almost useless. It didn't worry me at the time as it was a prototype "proof of concept" build but now I might have to try and sharpen it up with my jewelers files.

I just recently bought a sheet of the 1mm carbon and I might pull this apart and do carbon liners for it too.

Newbie Posts: 13
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2014, 01:18:24 PM »
Thanks for this guide.  Since I couldn't bring myself to break apart a 84mm Golfer to get the scissors layer, I decided to try this Wenger method instead.

I think the effort was pretty successful.  I give you the Faux-Voyageur:



I made custom 2.25mm pivots by grinding down some brass rod to 2.25mm and then drilling and tapping for a 0-80 screw.  I used 3/16" flat head 0-80 stainless screws.  My pivots were a little too long-- originally I made them 7.25mm long but when I do this again, I'll make them 7mm or a little less.

Instead of grinding other tools down to make the rest for the scissors, I milled a custom one from aluminum.  I also modeled the scale and liner in STL format.  They're derived from scanning on a flatbed scanner, so they're not perfect-- but they're decent.  I deburred and filed a little to get the fit that I wanted, but it didn't take much.



I posted these STLs to github in case they will come in handy to someone else: https://github.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox

The only issue is that the pad of the original victorinox back spring is a little too big by 0.5mm-0.7mm or so.  Hence, the back spring sticks out just a tad when closed.  I don't really know how to solve this yet-- I guess the face of the back spring needs to be ground down but I don't know how that will affect "snap" and I don't think doing it by hand with a bench grinder is a good idea.  Also I added an extra 0.1mm brass washer in between the scissors and the scale, and I don't think its necessary, so next time its apart, I'm going to take it out as it makes the end a little to thick.  Both problems are not terrible, so I'm going to start carrying the knife anyway.



Anyhow, thanks to everyone on this forum for giving me the ambition to try this modding thing for myself-- and to all the individual authors for posting great pictures and how-to's.

I still like the Victorinox scissors better, so I might try the 91mm-in-an-84mm mod next.  I'll still need some 84mm scissors broken out to use as a template I think. While the "micro-serrated" Wenger scissors are cool, I like that both halves of the Victorinox scissors don't move when being operated.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 03:17:35 PM by Jake »
No Life Club Posts: 4,714 I'm an Adult?!?! When did that happen?
Re: Wenger Scissors and Saw into Vic 84mm frame. Pic HEAVY.
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2014, 03:15:49 PM »
Nice work.  and welcome to the forum

The CAD models could be useful too.

As far as the spring goes, you can file the back (outside) of the spring at the end there without it effecting the snap very much at all.
I would stay away from filing the inside as it will effect snap and possibly the open/closed position of the scissors.



 

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