multitool innovation forum?

[Raukodur]

This forum is amazing, and it has such a collection of collectors, enthusiasts, modders, and general multitool users that it has many of the major and minor MT companies reading it or interested in it at least.

So I believe 'we' play an important role in the MT world.

The modding forum is something which is very rare. A place where products are actually customised/improved upon, and because of the lovely community we have here, people who do not have the ability or means to mod themselves, are able to get others to do it for them for very reasonable prices.

But one aspect of these forums I really like is the often hypothetical or theoretical discussion that takes place about what 'could be'. Relatively often we have threads about someone suggesting an idea for a new MT, or a modification of an existing one, that is not simply a matter of modding, but goes further. And I think this is another important potential of these forums, to drive innovation in the MT world.

So I thought I would just make a suggestion for discussion; what if we had another forum specifically for these sorts of discussions? If the idea is one that is able to be created with a mod, then it goes in the modding forum, but if it goes beyond that, I think it would be nice to have a collection of these threads in one place.

To give an example of the kind of topic that would fit in such a forum, a while ago I made a thread suggesting a MT which had a pliers and scissors, both accessible with a butterfly opening mechanism, and so instead of two 'handles' it would have three. This sort of this can't be modded, it would need to be made pretty much from scratch.

So what do you guys think? I know this wouldn't be a forum which would instantly fill up with threads, but it would be another forum, alongside the modding forum, which would make this website such a treasure trove for MT companies.

[Grant Lamontagne]

It's an interesting idea for sure.

To build on your idea, look for a tool called the Flip Grip, which sounds an awful lot like the sort of concept you have in mind, only instead of scissors it has blunt and needle nose pliers.

Def

Sent from a digital multitool

[209brian]

The idea of a clever new design is always a huge draw for me in tools.  Call it the Better Mousetrap forum.
Think about how someone takes a strip of steel and thinks up the Pirhana.

[Raukodur]

Exactly.

I really think that not only would this be another very special forum similar to the modding forum, but its very presence will stimulate ideas and debate.

Def, my dad has a similar tool to the flip grip, but that mechanism requires one of the tools to always be in 'open' mode. I had uploaded a rough drawing of the mechanism I had in mind in the original thread. I wont repost it since I do not want to hijack my own thread, but if we end up with the new forum, I will remake the thread.

[livan]

Where can I see your drawing tool?

[Raukodur]

This was the thread:

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,20323.0.html

[rdub934]

I can't beleive I haven't seen that thread for you 3 handled/two headed tool until now. That idea has a lot of potential.

I think the idea of a seperate thread for "theoreticals" would be a good idea. Stuff like this gets lost in the "General..." thread.

[livan]

The idea is very good, I liked it. I came up with many schemes tear but with three handles - original.

[Raukodur]

I think the idea of a seperate thread for "theoreticals" would be a good idea. Stuff like this gets lost in the "General..." thread.

Exactly, this way all of these threads will be in one place, because they do get buried in the different forums.

[Grant Lamontagne]

My big concern with doing something like this is simple- intellectual property.

There have been many mods done here that have (coincidentally I am sure ) become regular production items.  I can name quite a few "coincidences" that lead me to wonder what would happen if some design started here ended up being produced somewhere by some major brand.  Its bad enough (in my opinion) that mod ideas get implemented (coincidentally ) with out the modders getting any credit, I'd hate to see a whole new line of tools be produced without the guy with the original design and idea getting any credit- or any funds.  You know, because the major manufacturer just happened to be thinking along the same lines. 

It should be no secret by now that designers for all the major brands, several minor brands and a number of indepentents are all here- if they aren't then they are pretty dumb because this place is all about feedback, tweaks and design improvements on the things they do everyday.  And while most of the ones I know would never steal a design, you never know for sure.

Perhaps the best way around it would be a hidden forum, like the Charter Members have?  It could be by request only, which wouldn't be the most effective method of protecting ideas, but it would limit exposure. 

Just a thought.  I have a few ideas myself that I have never posted for just this reason.

Def

Sent from a digital multitool

[livan]

 Scheme Igor Skrylev , this tool is in service with the FBI and the Russian refused me in the photo. Stops and latches Unknown also shows the entire set of folding tools.


In fact, they no distance between the handle and have a lot of tools, but if you draw on drkgomu be unclear
instrumental part is pushed into the grooves handles folded position, from either side. Tool handle also rotate to either side, and there are light weight, compact size and two tools.

[livan]

Sorry I can not go threw a topic and should be in a different location?

[Syph007]

Ya all the tool manufacturers would love it! A one simple sub forum to steal ideas from. Think of the time saved!  That convenience combined with low cost china manufacturing is a WIN for making new crappy quality tools with little R&D and no credit to the original designer!

Seriously though, unless you have no interest in developing your ideas into products, I cant see why you'd want to give them away.  The tools Im working on will get patent protection before I ever breath a word of the concept.

A hidden forum could work for shooting ideas around though. But even then.. how do you know who can be trusted to learn the secret handshake to gain entry?

[livan]

Syph007    I realized ...... tidy figure ......

[lister]

One of things I like about this site is, it has no hidden forums, accesible only to the holy elite. Could we keep it that way, or at least make shoure that I end up among the choosen ones? 

[Grant Lamontagne]

We actually have two- one for people willing to pony up $30/year for membership, and an ultra secret Admin forum where we discuss who we want to ban next! 

Def

Sent from a digital multitool

[Raukodur]

Def I see your point.

I see two ways of tackling this.

1) make the forum secret, with some sort of access mechanism. E.g. password protected, or maybe only open to people who have a certain number of posts.

But the problem with this is that you greatly decrease the value of a discussion when you start to exclude people. And this would still not stop any company intent on accessing that forum, they would just have someone register, and slowly meet the requirements for access without drawing attention to themselves.

So the other way:

2) just have an open forum. Anyone who has an idea they wish to patent, don't post in that forum in the same way you don't post your idea on the forums currently. For those who have an idea but have no desire to pursue licensing or patenting their idea themselves, and so post the idea on the forums anyway (e.g. my dual headed triple handled tool), they can put their ideas in one place, where there can be good discussion about these sorts of things.


So I guess my point is that this forum wouldn't really change the way things are currently. Yes, it would be a focal point for these sorts of threads, but nothing more than that. I would argue it should be an open forum. Maybe have a STICKY in red and caps at the top that explains NOT to post any idea if you wish to license or patent that idea in the future.

[lister]

1) make the forum secret, with some sort of access mechanism. E.g. password protected, or maybe only open to people who have a certain number of posts.

It might be better if the membership in this subforum would be based on some other criteria, like an actual original design/idea/prototipe/mod...  You would get people who actually know what they are talking about  and I might have a shot at getting in considering I will never reach a high enoug number of posts. 

I imagine that number of posts would be problematic for all members for whom english is a second language. I know it takes me ages to compile even a simple reply which is the reason I have such a low number of posts.

[livan]

Any restriction of access participants, kills discussion. I dream that the forum would have legal force. Then you can dump a lot of development here. And if anyone is stolen, it will be possible to prove the priority. This is of course a fantasy.

[Mercury]

Any restriction of access participants, kills discussion. I dream that the forum would have legal force. Then you can dump a lot of development here. And if anyone is stolen, it will be possible to prove the priority. This is of course a fantasy.

It would be impossible to have any legal presence because A: this forum is not part of any governing body other than regulating its members by regulations that only apply here and B: we have members in so many countries that copyright enforcement would be hard to manage by any law enforcement agency. Hell, even the owner resides in a separate country from the servers and all the staff are in different countries!

I agree with making it a hidden subforum that is accessable only to charter members.  Charter membership requires payment and there are only 50 members or so that fit the bill.  If you want to discuss potentially sensitive material that could end up making the creator money then you should at least be trusted enough to pay for access. 

Sent from my Galaxy S3 using crapatalk two point oh.

[Raukodur]

I agree with making it a hidden subforum that is accessable only to charter members.  Charter membership requires payment and there are only 50 members or so that fit the bill.  If you want to discuss potentially sensitive material that could end up making the creator money then you should at least be trusted enough to pay for access. 

I think this would effectively kill the forum before it even begins.

[nuphoria]

If you want to keep something secret, don't put it on the internet

[Raukodur]

If you want to keep something secret, don't put it on the internet

Well this is the point, such a forum will do nothing other than create a place for people to post threads they ALREADY do in other forums.

[Grant Lamontagne]

It's not a matter of keeping it secret so much as it's a matter of someone taking someone else's intellectual property and producing it, making lots of money and passing none to the originator.  It's not about law, it's not about patents, it's about what it right, and I don't have faith that outsiders will have the same moral compasses that we have here.

I agree that a hidden forum would limit discussion.  And, I agree that there's really no way for us to properly regulate who gets access and who doesn't, so even if we had a hidden design forum then we still wouldn't be protecting our own members- especially if it was a paid forum because the major players would all be happy to drop $50 or $100/year to get access to a bunch of ideas.

With regards to posting a stickie thread, well, my vast experience in forums (over 15 years now) has shown me that if you want something to stay unread, put it in a stickie thread since most people tend to ignore them.

I would also like to point out that I am in no way worried about the forum.  We really can't be sued for anything- I worry about the members.  Imagine how you'd feel if someone else went to bed every night on a bed made of money generated from one of your ideas and using super models as blankets?  I can't tell you how I'd feel because the forum censors wouldn't let me, but I'll tell you that it wouldn't be positive.

I don't think there's an easy answer to this one, but I'm happy to keep discussing it in hopes of finding a decent balance.

Def

[Metropolicity]

I've never been one to hide process. Steal, borrow or whatever, if it's documented there is proof that its your idea. That's the main reason why I post mods or ideas.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Is that also why you had me remove a thread with your process in it?   

Def

[Metropolicity]

Is that also why you had me remove a thread with your process in it?   

Def

That's a whole other issue, I changed drastically how I made/make Skinths. It wouldn't be a true reflection of the method. However, that isn't a MOD, it's more an issue of one from scratch.

Happy you could help me

[Grant Lamontagne]

If we can't protect our members, what good are we?

Def

Sent from a digital multitool

[Raukodur]

Def, but surely you are arguing about protecting members who themselves arent asking for protection?

I mean do you delete any thread with the hint of intellectual property in it?

Because currently if a member posts a thread with a new idea in the general forum, it is open to all. Why is that different from having a designated area for such threads?

And sure, I understand what you are saying about the sticky issue and no-one reading it, maybe and/or a warning message that displays whenever a new thread is being started?

[AimlessWanderer]

If you want to keep something secret, don't put it on the internet

Well this is the point, such a forum will do nothing other than create a place for people to post threads they ALREADY do in other forums.

If I had a good idea for a commercially viable multitool which would likely make someone very rich, I won't be posting it online