Pepper Spray?

[Lynn LeFey]

This is a spin-off topic from the thread I started on my look into Concealed Carry
Here's a link to that thread.. http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,45611.0.html

I mention in it that thread that as an alternative (at least temporarily) to a firearm, I purchased a container of Sabre Red pepper spray.

I have, off and on, carried a one-hand open blade. Some of that has been for the use as a weapon, if need be. However, there are some major downsides to knives as weapons. They have no range. That's the big one. If taken from me, I REALLY don't want to be stabbed. Learning how to use a knife defensively takes a lot more effort than I'd ever care to put into it. On the upside, they're lightweight, inexpensive, and have utility outside of self defense.

A stun gun might be another alternative. I think the intimidation level might be a bit higher than a knife, but you're still looking at zero range. While it would suck to be hit with a stun gun, there's (usually) no long term problems. Still in the very affordable cost range.

A Taser takes most of what's good with the stun gun, and adds range. The downside is there's only one shot (for most models). Purchase is regulated like handguns in my state, but I already have a FOID (Firearm Owner ID) card, allowing me to purchase one. I'm not sure on the cost of them, as I haven't seriously considered getting one, but I imagine they're not nearly as affordable as a stun gun.

Pepper spray is, I feel, a decent compromise. The canister I got was a keychain model, which states it's good for 35 blasts. In reality, it seems like it might have 8 seconds of continuous spray, which is the number I'm more concerned with.

The good with pepper spray: Inexpensive, at $11. Light weight, at 1.8oz (51g). Moderate range of 5 to 8 feet. Non-lethal, which means if it's taken from me and used against me, it won't (by itself) cause any lasting injury. And it seems that most people subjected to being tazed and pepper sprayed would rather be tazed. IF successfully applied, it usually blinds the target for many minutes, and causes serious pain for up to about 45 minutes. It's pretty likely that 8 seconds of stream is enough to engage multiple attackers.

The bad: you have to hit your target in the face to really be effective. In any close-in confrontation, you're almost certainly going to get some of it on yourself. It's only pain, and that doesn't necessarily stop people (unlike tazing, which causes involuntary muscle contraction, or bullets, which are potentially lethal).

The Cold Steel company's pepper spray (Inferno) is more of a foam than liquid, and is less likely to aerosolize, but I picked up the Sabre Red, largely because it was at a gun store where the clerk spent half an hour answering my questions about guns that I told him upfront I wasn't going to buy. I felt he deserved a sale of SOMETHING.

When I look at the question of 'Will I ever need a defensive weapon?'... The answer is 'probably not'. What the word 'probably' means is, as far as I can tell, not really calculable. IF I ever DO need something, would pepper spray be effective? Well, in some cases, yes, and in some cases no. Once again... REALLY hard to calculate. Is the THREAT of pepper spray enough to deter attacks? Sometimes, yes, but not always. When it comes down to cost-weight-need ... I thought it was worth the $11.

So, with that settled, now i'm seriously considering adding a travel-size bottle of baby shampoo to my EDC. It's supposedly one of the better ways to wash the oil based pepper spray off without causing more irritation. If I have to use it, and get hit with it myself, I'd rather not have the full duration effect. I like hot food, and can handle a bit of burn, but NOTHING like these sprays. My limit might be 40,000 scoville, and these things go 2 to 5 million.

So... as with the CCW issue, any thoughts on the usefulness of pepper spray in the self-defense role? Anything beat Sabre Red or Cold Steel Inferno?

[jzmtl]

I find the number of blast/spray time/range pretty hard to believe given it's a keychain size. Since it's only $11 I'd go out and test a can to see if it actually works, or just small puff that'll blow back to your face.

[Lynn LeFey]

I watched a youtube video of someone testing a bunch of different sizes. the one I have was about 8 seconds. I certainly don't take the manufacturers' numbers at face value.

I really think a 1 second burst, repeatedly sweeping across someone's face, ought to get it. If not, there are several attempts. I'd HOPE that I'd only ever have to hit one person with it at a time, but who knows?

Getting a practice canister sounds like a reasonable idea. I haven't checked to see if they offer the inert versions of Sabre Red yet. I know Cold Steel has the inert practice canisters.

[jzmtl]

Will you have the fine motor control to do 1 sec burst sweep attacker's face in a panic? I know I probably won't.

[Styerman]

It doesnt work too well on peeps high on some drugs . It cross contaminates . Cans are hard to orient under pressure . Experienced recipients ( ie: criminals )can and do fight thru the effect . The Pros who use it , usually have a lethal force option if it goes south .

If you want to go that route , look up the Kimber Pepper Blaster . It fires a gel , and has pistol like ergonomics . The advantage of Gel , less chance of cross contamination .

There are very few documented cases , where it saved a civilian ass .

Chris

[Lynn LeFey]

The spread of the spray, along with the duration, and the much closer range than one usually imagines using a pistol means if I can't then I wouldn't be hitting with a pistol either.

There's a larger degree of interactive aiming with pepper spray, since the stream doesn't stop. You get to adjust on the fly.

The point, I think, is that I feel better about hitting with it than any other ranged weapon.

Styreman: It doesn't stop folks high on drugs, but it still blinds them. No amount of PCP gets you out of involuntary eye reactions. And I'm not going to wait around while they flail blindly. Also,folks on PCP have taken full mags from 45s, and beat the shooter to death before dying themselves so there's a point where not much of anything is going to solve the problem.

I'm willing to accept cross contamination, at least way more than throwing stray bullets and worrying about over penetration.

As for hard to orient under pressure, I can imagine that's true. As I purse-carry it, the odds of me getting it out quickly (meaning I didn't see the possible threat coming) are pretty unlikely. That'd be the same with anything, though.

I have issues, sort of bordering on hypervigilance. If i get a whiff of trouble, I prepare. That doesn't make me immune to surprise attacks, but means I'm watching likely trouble spots a lot more than most folks.

I'm not too keen on the 'shot' method of the Kimber pepper blaster.

I DO wish the little pepper spray units had a little clearer grip patterns, so you knew by the way they rest in your hand if you're pointing it in the right direction. The safetly lock on mine, along with feeling with the thumb along the top edge will let me orient it, but it takes a moment.

[Aloha]

the pepper spray i got for my two female friends states 1.5 mil scoville units, im not sure how long of a spray in terms of seconds it has.  after reading up on the percentages and actual spray hotness vs stated hotness and the different types of capsaicin then getting wrapped up in the numbers I figured let me just get something.  I figure if they carry it in an offensive manner (in hand while walking ) rather than hand in purse on canister,  "most" would be attackers would move along looking for an easier target.  situational awareness and maybe even a defense course are always great primary levels of preparedness.  ive sprayed a dog with some off brand pepper spray and it worked great ( poor pooch had it coming ).  I can tell you the strength was enuf to get me coughing a bit myself so I cant imagine what it would do when sprayed into or in the direction of an attacker though im sure even the initial pause would give you enough time to run like heck. 

I like the idea of of the stun gun because the ZAP it makes is pretty dang serious.  only serious bad people would continue to come forward after a quick "demonstration ZAP".  ive also seen stun guns where a bracelet attaches to the device and if you should loose a handle on the unit the bracelet detaches rendering the gun ineffective.   

regarding the "what if" factor in being attacked, I rather have a plan and options rather than none at all.  you seem like you have a good handle on your needs and in your search im certain you will find a comfort level of preparedness.

[Steinar]

The really nice thing about pepper spray over a handgun is that it probably won't have adverse effects for your own mental health if having to use it. Using a handgun in defense, while better than the alternative, will probably be a life changing event as noted in the CCW thread...

I would certainly invest in an extra box to test how the aerosol behaved (reach and run-time, for instance) if I were to EDC it, though.

Disclaimer: I'm a soft, liberal European.

[Styerman]

Taser has a civilian version ( if your state permits it ) , you buy ,then do an online background check . It's designed so that you fire it , then drop it and run . Can still be problematical depending on how the jackass is dressed . Also not much good on multiple jackasses .

At the end of the day , the choice is yours . I prefer a layered approach , with empty hand , then improvised impact , then other options you see fit . If you only have a nail , everything looks like a nail .

Even if you don't want to go the CCW route , if you have the bucks , check one of the M.C.S, courses . You will find it a real eye opener . They tour around , probably the best hundred or so bucks you ever spent .

As far as chemical agents , my direct experience : some POS sprayed me with 5% dog repellant , I had no problem making contact , and I was very smurfed off. Many years ago , when I wore another hat , I used S&W Curb 60 ( the strongest mace at the time ) , I have seen it fail , and the dude had to be taken down with batons . All and sundry got contaminated .

Chris

[Lynn LeFey]

What's the 'M.C.S.' stand for? A quick google search makes me think you DON'T mean 'Mathematical Computer Science' or 'Memphis City Schools'.

I've had the argument of effectiveness with a friend of mine who watched a guy get pepper sprayed then take on a number of cops before being subdued, and part of my counter argument is... I'm not planning on engaging or subduing. The plan is retreat. Could someone still follow? Sure. I understand pepper spray is really just a deterrent, and won't be 100% effective. Nothing is.

I have some training in kempo, so it's not like I'm only relying on pepper spray. I would just rather avoid hand to hand altogether. Part of the kempo training was first, to get away. Can't get away? Use a club. Can't find a club... (sigh)... okay, well, here are your options. Thoughts on improvised impact weapons have been bouncing around as well.

Steiner: I'm largely of your mindset on the matter. I mentioned it in the CCW thread. I don't think a lot of people REALLY think through how terrible it'd be to shoot someone. There's also a saying that 'Every bullet  has a lawyer attached to it', meaning the legal ramifications to every shot fired. I'm not just concerned with every bullet I put into an intended target, but every round I miss with as well. That hesitance to use a weapon might make me pause where I wouldn't with pepper spray. Sure, there might be accidental effects with pepper spray, but they're very short-lived.

[Styerman]

Modern Combative Systems LLC . Let there be no BS between us , pistols also suck at subduing peeps . Unless you destroy major bones , or hit a major CNS target , they basically kill by exanguination , which takes times . Modern ER's and Trauma teams , and products like quick clot ; have drastically lowered death rates .

I have a buddy who works corrections in Penna. who has inmates who have been shot several times in their careers .

Chris

[Styerman]

BTW , my fave CQC weapon for civilians and police alike , are the blackjack and sap . They are frowned upon in most jurisdictions , but they weren't banned nearly everywhere by the mid ninties due to lack of effectiveness ( ya just gotta avoid strikes to the to of the head - all the skull sutures tend top screw up ) .

I used a couple the back in the late seventies/early eighties - half the time the bystanders didn't have a clue that any weapon had been used . It just looked like you had given the SOS a Smurf slap .

Now , being in my sixties with a dodgy right knee , I carry a TSC Stockman's cane , with a nice Lee Valley brass multi tipped ferule .

If you are looking at OC , check out the Kimber Pepper Blaster - it's the only OC system I'd consider

Chris

[Grant Lamontagne]

This is my favorite CQB defense item...

Def

Sent from the place I sent it from

[Lynn LeFey]

I can't fit that into my EDC. The model I COULD fit... no one would take seriously.

"Stay back! I have a chihuahua, and I'm not afraid to use it!"

[enki_ck]

This does look EDC-able but yes, not very frightening.

[Mr. Whippy]

My daughter attends college where the surroundings are fairly sketchy.  She has a taser and pepper spray (and a knife) with her most of the time.  If she has to go where she thinks its sketchy, either due to location or time of day/night, she keeps the pepper spray in one hand, and the taser within quick reach.  She's practiced using them and has the routine down as almost reflex. 

[Mr. Whippy]

Oh, and one last thing:

Having grown up on a horse farm, she knows the procedure for field castration. 

[Lynn LeFey]

Having grown up on a horse farm, she knows the procedure for field castration. 

Burdizzo clamp, rubber band gun, or the slice-n-bite method? 

[Mr. Whippy]

Having grown up on a horse farm, she knows the procedure for field castration. 

Burdizzo clamp, rubber band gun, or the slice-n-bite method? 

Slice, crush and cut.

[ironraven]

Back to topic...

I'm not a fan of most pepper spray for several reasons. My brother the former bouncer has seen several intoxicated guys have zero response to it, and it is an aerosol, meaning that wind and rain will drop your effective range and change the direction of the stream (including back at you).

If I was going to go with pepper, I would go with the foam. Usually has a longer range, better resistance to wind, and that stuff sticks. Make sure yours is the foamy stuff, not all Sabre Red is IIRC. It's cheap enough to test it against some poor innocent cardboard box someplace outside. VERY OUTSIDE *chuckles* My brother the former bouncer also has a funny story about the time his less than brilliant ex tested pepper spray in their apartment.

Oh, and find some skateboard tape. Put a strip on the front or back of the canister- so long as you remember which side you put that on, you can find it any time, even with gloves, so you can orient it. Thats what I did when I used to carry a pepper canister- rode in my left hand vest or jacket pocket, and nothing looks odd if you have one hand in your pocket.

[Lynn LeFey]

Good idea with the tape.

As for testing inside... I watch youtube videos on the 'Cutlerylover' channel. He tests a lot of hot sauce, like crazy hot extract stuff, and he test sprayed himself with pepper spray. But before he did, he test sprayed it against a piece of paper... at arms' length... in his little office. Hilarity ensued.