Leatherman Signal - is LM making a survival multi?

[babola]

Just installed Mini-Surge's wingman scissors on Signal, they worked, I will have another pair made for Singal for perfect fit.

Have you tried fitting Wave/Surge straight edge blade into it as originally planned? How was the fit?

Cheers.

Thought about it but didn't try.
The signal blade is decent and robust, not much shorter than Wave blade and there isn't much room on Signal for a longer blade.

Thanks. After checking out few Signal photos I was under impression there's quite a bit of empty space between the tip of the blade and the bottom of the cavity it folds into.

[comis]

Looking at those pics, I can also understand comis' comments about discomfort with the pliers closed due to those two plastic welts on the outside. They really didn't think this through did they 

Just to let you guys in, after 3 rounds of sawing, Signal didn't perform that well in comparison to the other LMs.  The saw is pretty much the same as Wave, but the hammer/clip configuration makes it shorter to grip onto, and all the protruding parts are annoying.

Personally not a big fan of the hammer(other than pounding tent stakes, what survival priority or outdoor purpose does it really serve anyway?) and don't like the idea of my tool dangling around with just a clip.

[Kampfer]

Agree
Tent stakes can be hammered by pretty much any MT without any problem.

[dks]

Or another pole or a rock.

[Aloha]

Or another pole or a rock.

^^This.  With all the videos on batoning I'd think there'd be one to pound a tent stake in. 

[BASguy]

What an absolutely unbelievable piece of crap.  +$100 is insane for this kind of garbage.  Spending that kind of money to try to mod it into something sort of useful is mystifying to me.   Leatherman, please go back to making just the Wave, ST, and Rebar.  You seriously suck when you lose focus


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[sawman]

What an absolutely unbelievable piece of crap.  +$100 is insane for this kind of garbage.  Spending that kind of money to try to mod it into something sort of useful is mystifying to me.   Leatherman, please go back to making just the Wave, ST, and Rebar.  You seriously suck when you lose focus


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

+1

Can't the government fine them or something for selling the people unsafe garbage? 

[comis]

To LM defense, Signal may not be a classic hit like Wave/Charge/SuperTool, but as I have said earlier in this thread, I still do appreciate their effort at least trying to make or cater to certain market segment(specialized tool).  Looking at all the hollow-outs for trying to cut weight, and the ferro rod on a flimsy whistle, they did put in a some thought to it, maybe just not at the level that we all expecting them to.

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Blade can be plain edge.  Just look at all the 'bushcraft' craze lately, and the more traditional outdoor blades, like Mora...almost all of them are plain edge and for a good reason, easy to maintain

2) I really much rather to have the traditional Wave configuration, and the outer tools with Blade(consider carbon steel)/ removable Saw/removable diamond file(sharpening)/scissors

3) I would trade in the hammer/clip for a removable threaded ferro rod + interchangeable tiny led light or whistle inside the handle.  Or just a spark-lite fire starter inside handle would be cool.

4) Really smooth out the handle, it's too busy right now...and if I were to use the saw or blade for extended period of time, it will not be comfortable after a long while.  The clip gate does hurt little finger, considering the saw is working on a pull stroke.

[Kampfer]

Hey Comis
What are your thoughts on using screwdriver and pliers?
I find these two fictions are difficult to use on Signal.

[Obi1shinobee]

What an absolutely unbelievable piece of crap.  +$100 is insane for this kind of garbage.  Spending that kind of money to try to mod it into something sort of useful is mystifying to me.   Leatherman, please go back to making just the Wave, ST, and Rebar.  You seriously suck when you lose focus


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

 

[comis]

Hey Comis
What are your thoughts on using screwdriver and pliers?
I find these two fictions are difficult to use on Signal.

Kampfer,

In comparison to a Wave, the Signal pliers opens slightly less wide, and the pilers head is slightly shorter as well.  The good news is the wire cutter is longer.  Due to all the gadgets resting on the scale, as previously pointed out, the handle spread is also a little wider.  Like most LM, the pliers head come in stiff, so I actually do welcome the wider spread, so I could easily put my middle finger in between the handles to facilitate the opening/closing of the handles.

In terms of using the screwdriver/awl/can opener, don't even get me started--that's probably the reason why I dislike the hammer so much...not only I don't find that many outdoor related tasks which need hammering, the hammer will not allow the handles to close when I am using either the screwdriver/awl/can opener. 

I'm so used to closing the handles when I am using the screwdriver, so I could 'rotate' the entire unit like a screwdriver...now I have to always keep the hammer side open all the way to use it.  The worst is the awl, I could close the handles, but it will practically reduce the length of awl to only half.

The good news about the hammer is, since that handle is longer and heavier towards the end, I could use momentum to flick open the pliers one-handed easily.  But most pliers based MT can do that, given enough break in time or readjustment.

[Obi1shinobee]

Leatherman Signal. ALL SIZZLE BUT NO STEAK.. 

[babola]

...screwdriver and pliers?
I find these two fictions are difficult to use on Signal.

Fiction is a very fitting term in this case, indeed 

[BASguy]

To LM defense, Signal may not be a classic hit like Wave/Charge/SuperTool, but as I have said earlier in this thread, I still do appreciate their effort at least trying to make or cater to certain market segment(specialized tool).  Looking at all the hollow-outs for trying to cut weight, and the ferro rod on a flimsy whistle, they did put in a some thought to it, maybe just not at the level that we all expecting them to.

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Blade can be plain edge.  Just look at all the 'bushcraft' craze lately, and the more traditional outdoor blades, like Mora...almost all of them are plain edge and for a good reason, easy to maintain

2) I really much rather to have the traditional Wave configuration, and the outer tools with Blade(consider carbon steel)/ removable Saw/removable diamond file(sharpening)/scissors

3) I would trade in the hammer/clip for a removable threaded ferro rod + interchangeable tiny led light or whistle inside the handle.  Or just a spark-lite fire starter inside handle would be cool.

4) Really smooth out the handle, it's too busy right now...and if I were to use the saw or blade for extended period of time, it will not be comfortable after a long while.  The clip gate does hurt little finger, considering the saw is working on a pull stroke.

Giving them credit for "attempting" innovation is fine.  However, they need to be called out for bringing this piece of crap to market and putting it at an insane price point.  I can only believe their marketing dept must have been salivating thinking "these prepper idiots will buy anything" so it justified having a  first year mechanical engineer design this junk and pump it out on the assembly line in a clear attempt sell crap on hype alone.  Wow....seriously.


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[Obi1shinobee]

To LM defense, Signal may not be a classic hit like Wave/Charge/SuperTool, but as I have said earlier in this thread, I still do appreciate their effort at least trying to make or cater to certain market segment(specialized tool).  Looking at all the hollow-outs for trying to cut weight, and the ferro rod on a flimsy whistle, they did put in a some thought to it, maybe just not at the level that we all expecting them to.

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Blade can be plain edge.  Just look at all the 'bushcraft' craze lately, and the more traditional outdoor blades, like Mora...almost all of them are plain edge and for a good reason, easy to maintain

2) I really much rather to have the traditional Wave configuration, and the outer tools with Blade(consider carbon steel)/ removable Saw/removable diamond file(sharpening)/scissors

3) I would trade in the hammer/clip for a removable threaded ferro rod + interchangeable tiny led light or whistle inside the handle.  Or just a spark-lite fire starter inside handle would be cool.

4) Really smooth out the handle, it's too busy right now...and if I were to use the saw or blade for extended period of time, it will not be comfortable after a long while.  The clip gate does hurt little finger, considering the saw is working on a pull stroke.

Giving them credit for "attempting" innovation is fine.  However, they need to be called out for bringing this piece of crap to market and putting it at an insane price point.  I can only believe their marketing dept must have been salivating thinking "these prepper idiots will buy anything" so it justified having a  first year mechanical engineer design this junk and pump it out on the assembly line in a clear attempt sell crap on hype alone.  Wow....seriously.


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

Leatherman need hired couples people in MTO do design and set up..  I can can name 5 people 

[SAK Guy]

This place is a vast untapped well of "experienced innovation" IMO. You guys know what works and how to get there in a multi....   

I'm constantly amazed when I read these threads!! 

[Obi1shinobee]

AWLFAIL to Signal   

[gadgetman7]

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

[Syncop8r]

This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't.

I think some MTO members may be in the first camp.

After checking out few Signal photos I was under impression there's quite a bit of empty space between the tip of the blade and the bottom of the cavity it folds into.

How about between the ears of product design at Leatherman? Much space there?

[Mextreme]

AWLFAIL to Signal   

That awl looks like they took the blade from the new Juice and made a hole in it    :

[SteveC]

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

Well said   

[AimlessWanderer]

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

Nice to get an insight from someone looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes  it's easy for use to lose perspective of how a tool may be perceived by someone less familiar with the multitool scene than we are. Interesting also to see that his enthusiasm for it pretty much parallels ours.

I agree with Syncop8r that we have a mix of people at MTO. We have the BOB builders who might not use them daily, as well as those who are using their multitools day in, day out. Your second paragraph reads like you're suggesting that the tool was designed to not be used, or at least designed to fulfil a theoretical concept rather than be a reliable working tool. I would agree with that, and it's a sad day when tool makers are selling things to stash in case of emergency and not focussing on how well they work should an emergency occur.

As to your final point, I think on this specific tool, Leatherman have truly earned all ridicule that has been forthcoming on this thread. From my own perspective, this isn't a one-off shambles, but one they've been systematically working towards. They appear to have walked away (to some extent) from toolmaking, and got into merely selling gadgets designed around social media trends. Whether it's budget tools, one piece tools, tools for kids, survival tools, recently it seems less about the viability and quality of the tool, and more about making something profitable with a catchy marketting angle, irrespective of whether it works or not.

As far as I'm concerned, they've taken several poor concepts and rolled them all together to make it even worse. If they want to be taken seriously, they should go back to basics and look at how to make the best tool for the job instead of some "gadget of the month" offering. When a company continues to make the same errors time and time again, but with worse and worse errors, and with growing prices, they deserve to be ridiculed.

There are lots of constructive criticism in this thread too. There is also lots and lots of constructive criticism around the site from before this was released which would have guided the designers away from making such a carbunkle. Info and feedback on ergonomics, what makes a good awl and a bad awl, what people want from a woods based tool system.... or indeed any emergency use tool... and it appears to have been duly ignored along with various basic design principles and common sense. Taking one specific aspect as an example, the hammer. It's a casting, it's thin in section in several places, some of those thin areas are near abrupt sectional changes, and they expect you to use it as a hammer.

We've tried constructive criticism several times in the past on other offerings, but it obviously hasn't worked. Maybe public humiliation and mockery may help get the message across that we're serious in our disappointment and frustration about the decline in both design and manufacturing standards

[Gerhard Gerber]

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.

Noticed that as well, but maybe it's the high price and gimmicky nature turning hardcore supporters sour......?

The first time I saw a Leatherman being used full-out was a Wave Gen 1, don't recall my comment but my friend's reply was something along the lines of "this whole tool is a hammer" 
Four years later the pliers' head  broke and he paid up next to nothing for a Gen 2.

That made me a LM fan forever, and  Signal I'll never buy.....

[sawman]

Leatherman Signal. ALL SIZZLE BUT NO STEAK.. 

[Kampfer]

I agree with what Al said. 

[comis]

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

Definitely appreciate this prospective, and always good to read thoughts from different direction.

There is no doubt some Armageddon preppers may take interest in this, just on the novelty idea.  But in all seriousness, I think LM might have originally wanted to target the outdoor community and make it some kind of 'specialized' tool for them to use.  The question is what may motivate the bushcraft/outdoor crowd to buy this tool:


Cost:
Signal 120usd
vs
Laplander (~20usd) + Light my fire knife w/ ferro rod (~27usd) + Storm whistle (~7usd) + LM Rebar (~55usd) = 109usd
I would probably choose Combo 1, since I get two blades, two saws, and some of the tools are full size and more efficient.  Trading the 'hammer' on Signal for a 'file' on Rebar.


Weight:
Signal (214g)
vs
Rebar (190g, 55usd) + Light my fire Scount model Ferro rod/scrapper/whistle (25g, 20usd) = 215g
Combo 2 is 1g more, but almost half the cost.  Again, missing the hammer and OHO blade.


Weight and Dimension:
Signal
vs
Rebar + Nitecore NSW10 whistle + Exotac nanoSTRIKER Refill Kit
Combo 3 still cost a lot less, and approximately the same weight and dimension as Signal.

I consider myself a tool collector, so I probably will buy whatever I come across as novelty/interesting/different.  But for the real MT users and seasonal outdoorsmen/women

[Obi1shinobee]

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

Definitely appreciate this prospective, and always good to read thoughts from different direction.

There is no doubt some Armageddon preppers may take interest in this, just on the novelty idea.  But in all seriousness, I think LM might have originally wanted to target the outdoor community and make it some kind of 'specialized' tool for them to use.  The question is what may motivate the bushcraft/outdoor crowd to buy this tool:


Cost:
Signal 120usd
vs
Laplander (~20usd) + Light my fire knife w/ ferro rod (~27usd) + Storm whistle (~7usd) + LM Rebar (~55usd) = 109usd
I would probably choose Combo 1, since I get two blades, two saws, and some of the tools are full size and more efficient.  Trading the 'hammer' on Signal for a 'file' on Rebar.


Weight:
Signal (214g)
vs
Rebar (190g, 55usd) + Light my fire Scount model Ferro rod/scrapper/whistle (25g, 20usd) = 215g
Combo 2 is 1g more, but almost half the cost.  Again, missing the hammer and OHO blade.


Weight and Dimension:
Signal
vs
Rebar + Nitecore NSW10 whistle + Exotac nanoSTRIKER Refill Kit
Combo 3 still cost a lot less, and approximately the same weight and dimension as Signal.

I consider myself a tool collector, so I probably will buy whatever I come across as novelty/interesting/different.  But for the real MT users and seasonal outdoorsmen/women

THIS WILL OWNED SIGNAL ANYTIME/ANYWHERE/ANYDAY AND STILL THREE TIMES CHEAPERS.. 

[SAKnight]

I feel like it all started with the OHT. Right before I took a break from this site, the rebar had just dropped to tremendous love (despite some noted shortcomings, I feel overall most saw it as a great value, especially with the new plier head). Then around the time i left the OHT was either just coming out or was almost out. Lots of hype, but it didn't live up to expectation with the short tools, and large size. However, it was a solid, unique tool, and the price really wasn't that bad.

It's just gone more and more commercial from there 

It's about what they can put out to make money, whose attention they can attract to buy a product of theirs- not improving designs or building tools for their longtime customer base. It saddens me to think it could be the end of an era.

[Obi1shinobee]

I feel like it all started with the OHT. Right before I took a break from this site, the rebar had just dropped to tremendous love (despite some noted shortcomings, I feel overall most saw it as a great value, especially with the new plier head). Then around the time i left the OHT was either just coming out or was almost out. Lots of hype, but it didn't live up to expectation with the short tools, and large size. However, it was a solid, unique tool, and the price really wasn't that bad.

It's just gone more and more commercial from there 

It's about what they can put out to make money, whose attention they can attract to buy a product of theirs- not improving designs or building tools for their longtime customer base. It saddens me to think it could be the end of an era.

LEATHERMAN NEED SEND limousine GET ME .. SO I CAN DESIGN THEY NEXT TOOLS   

[Kampfer]

Hey there,
I just received the new Signal yesterday and I find the handles are spread too wide for me to have good grip when using its pliers.

Attached is a photo of Signal comparing with a Wave.

Is this the intent of its design?
I am considering returning this tool as it is not useable to me.
Thanks

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Leatherman Tool Group, Inc.

Unfortunately that is the design of the Signal, we did need to keep enough room for the handles not to touch (around the sharpener and ferro rod).

Regards,

Cameron Hansing
Customer Service