Leatherman Signal - is LM making a survival multi?

[sawman]

I feel like it all started with the OHT. Right before I took a break from this site, the rebar had just dropped to tremendous love (despite some noted shortcomings, I feel overall most saw it as a great value, especially with the new plier head). Then around the time i left the OHT was either just coming out or was almost out. Lots of hype, but it didn't live up to expectation with the short tools, and large size. However, it was a solid, unique tool, and the price really wasn't that bad.

It's just gone more and more commercial from there 

It's about what they can put out to make money, whose attention they can attract to buy a product of theirs- not improving designs or building tools for their longtime customer base. It saddens me to think it could be the end of an era.

I wonder who's running things these days at LM 

[Kampfer]

I did not like their recent offerings, OHT, Leap, Rev, Tread and now Signal.

[Obi1shinobee]

I did not like their recent offerings, OHT, Leap, Rev, Tread and now Signal.

I smell GERBERLAND 

[sawman]

I did not like their recent offerings, OHT, Leap, Rev, Tread and now Signal.

I smell GERBERLAND 

VICTORINOX 

[Obi1shinobee]

I did not like their recent offerings, OHT, Leap, Rev, Tread and now Signal.

I smell GERBERLAND 

VICTORINOX 

[gadgetman7]

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

There is no doubt some Armageddon preppers may take interest in this, just on the novelty idea.  But in all seriousness, I think LM might have originally wanted to target the outdoor community and make it some kind of 'specialized' tool for them to use.  The question is what may motivate the bushcraft/outdoor crowd to buy this tool:

Good point.


Sent from Tracy Island

[Kampfer]

ok, I got the RMA#, returning it.

I amn't no mall ninja.

[firiki]

What an absolutely unbelievable piece of crap.  +$100 is insane for this kind of garbage.  Spending that kind of money to try to mod it into something sort of useful is mystifying to me.   Leatherman, please go back to making just the Wave, ST, and Rebar.  You seriously suck when you lose focus


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

+1

Can't the government fine them or something for selling the people unsafe garbage? 

That would be state interventionism 

[babola]

ok, I got the RMA#, returning it.

Good on ya', mate.

If more people decide to do the same that may actually make LM design team to sit down and rethink this one.

"Unfit for purpose"...that certainly smells like a product recall to me. 

[Kampfer]

ok, I got the RMA#, returning it.

Good on ya', mate.

If more people decide to do the same that may actually make LM design team to sit down and rethink this one.

"Unfit for purpose"...that certainly smells like a product recall to me.

I don't blame the design team, I blame the executive's marketing direction.

In recent years, seen like Leatherman been focusing the special interest groups like military, paramedic, snowboarder, skateboarder, surfers, kids now survivalist. To me, a multitool should be general purpose and multipurpose.
They are really on the wrong track.   

Keep refining the Wave & PST platforms then you are golden.

[firiki]

I don't blame the design team, I blame the executive's marketing direction.

In recent years, seen like Leatherman been focusing the special interest groups like military, paramedic, snowboarder, skateboarder, surfers, kids now survivalist. To me, a multitool should be general purpose and multipurpose.
They are really on the wrong track.   

Keep refining the Wave & PST platforms then you are golden.

That's how I think of a multi-tool as well. I guess the problem Leatherman has to overcome is how not to become boring, in a way. That and the fact that they can try to address the needs of different target groups. How they are going to succed in that is not my concern. I'm here to say what I think from a user's point of view.

I got mine back from my plantation manager/guide friend yesterday. He's not a a big multitool guy so his opinion was interesting. He liked the saw but thought it was too short for anything but very small branches. Also, the serrated blade annoyed him when he was trying to make very controlled cuts on wood. (I tried that last night and couldn't do it well either.) Jim also said that the awl, can opener and screwdrivers were too awkward to use and he wanted it to take regular bits. When I told him the price he just laughed.

I think a lot of time and effort went in to the design of the tool to get all of the "survival" bases covered without much thought to consistent use. This was designed for people who build bug out bags without using the tools in them very often. People like us tend to use our tools every day and understand the ergonomics and what works on these tools and what doesn't. I don't think Leatherman did any long term testing with this tool in a realistic every day use scenario and I don't think that's what they intended for the tool. The problem is that if you truly have to survive with it the problems that we've noted will hinder its usefulness.

I admit I don't post much but I do read the forum every day and the wealth of knowledge here is amazing. But, I have noticed something in this thread that's a little bothersome. It seems that a few people seem to be reveling in the issues with this tool. I personally don't want any of the manufacturers to put out bad products and don't wish any of them bad luck. When a major manufacturer fails it hurts the community as a whole. Constructive criticism and some exasperation is normal and helpful to the community and companies but delight in failure isn't. Just my thoughts.


Sent from Tracy Island

Nice to get an insight from someone looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes  it's easy for use to lose perspective of how a tool may be perceived by someone less familiar with the multitool scene than we are. Interesting also to see that his enthusiasm for it pretty much parallels ours.

I agree with Syncop8r that we have a mix of people at MTO. We have the BOB builders who might not use them daily, as well as those who are using their multitools day in, day out. Your second paragraph reads like you're suggesting that the tool was designed to not be used, or at least designed to fulfil a theoretical concept rather than be a reliable working tool. I would agree with that, and it's a sad day when tool makers are selling things to stash in case of emergency and not focussing on how well they work should an emergency occur.

As to your final point, I think on this specific tool, Leatherman have truly earned all ridicule that has been forthcoming on this thread. From my own perspective, this isn't a one-off shambles, but one they've been systematically working towards. They appear to have walked away (to some extent) from toolmaking, and got into merely selling gadgets designed around social media trends. Whether it's budget tools, one piece tools, tools for kids, survival tools, recently it seems less about the viability and quality of the tool, and more about making something profitable with a catchy marketting angle, irrespective of whether it works or not.

As far as I'm concerned, they've taken several poor concepts and rolled them all together to make it even worse. If they want to be taken seriously, they should go back to basics and look at how to make the best tool for the job instead of some "gadget of the month" offering. When a company continues to make the same errors time and time again, but with worse and worse errors, and with growing prices, they deserve to be ridiculed.

There are lots of constructive criticism in this thread too. There is also lots and lots of constructive criticism around the site from before this was released which would have guided the designers away from making such a carbunkle. Info and feedback on ergonomics, what makes a good awl and a bad awl, what people want from a woods based tool system.... or indeed any emergency use tool... and it appears to have been duly ignored along with various basic design principles and common sense. Taking one specific aspect as an example, the hammer. It's a casting, it's thin in section in several places, some of those thin areas are near abrupt sectional changes, and they expect you to use it as a hammer.

We've tried constructive criticism several times in the past on other offerings, but it obviously hasn't worked. Maybe public humiliation and mockery may help get the message across that we're serious in our disappointment and frustration about the decline in both design and manufacturing standards

I'm afraid 50ft speaks the awful truth in this fine post. I wouldn't be proud to have designed the Signal if I were the designing team. Having followed the exec's instuctions is another fing.


 

[Kampfer]

Form the MT manufacture stand point, there should be two groups of consumers:
The prepared and the unprepared.

The prepared group would want to have nice MT on person or at least nearby, the seriousness of the MT would base on how prepared the individual wants to be and what their needs would be .

The unprepared, there is nothing anyone can do about that.   

[firiki]

The unprepared, there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Well, if the unprepared can choose their MT from a selection of decent quality, functional tools then they have less excuses 

That way it's easier for people to change their mentality.

@Leatherman

[Kampfer]

The unprepared, there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Well, if the unprepared can choose their MT from a selection of decent quality, functional tools then they have less excuses 

That way it's easier for people to change their mentality.

@Leatherman

They do have Sidekick / Wingman for them, converted me.   

[sawman]

The unprepared, there is nothing anyone can do about that.

Well, if the unprepared can choose their MT from a selection of decent quality, functional tools then they have less excuses 

That way it's easier for people to change their mentality.

@Leatherman

They do have Sidekick / Wingman for them, converted me.   

Wingman 

[gadgetman7]

One thing it seems we all agree on is that the tool needs to be redesigned. I wonder if Leatherman is even reading this thread......


Sent from Tracy Island

[SAKnight]

One thing it seems we all agree on is that the tool needs to be redesigned. I wonder if Leatherman is even reading this thread......


Sent from Tracy Island

Probably laughing at it with money falling out of their pockets... 

Glad I haven't bought a leatherman new for some time.

[AimlessWanderer]

I did not like their recent offerings, OHT, Leap, Rev, Tread and now Signal.

I smell GERBERLAND 

Nothing wrong with Gerber. In my personal opinion....

Balance > S2 Juice
Diesel > Rebar
Suspension > Wingman/Sidekick
MP400 > Kick
MP600 > OHT

.... but I appreciate that not everyone agrees 

One thing it seems we all agree on is that the tool needs to be redesigned. I wonder if Leatherman is even reading this thread......


Sent from Tracy Island

Probably laughing at it with money falling out of their pockets... 

Glad I haven't bought a leatherman new for some time.

Quite possibly....

I think there's still more than enough residual group psychology at play for the gullible masses to be swept along by the hype, though I don't know how many more lemons they'll tolerate before they start questioning if You Tube and Facebook has led them astray

[sawman]

Al, I agree that the MP400 and 600 are SUPERB multitools

[BASguy]

The MP600 , other than the awful cutters, is a rock solid MT at the price point anyone would consider reasonable.  Apparently the folks at Leatherman think that putting their name on ill designed, poorly constructed, turds is enough reason for anyone to buy it at inflated prices and be happy they did......fail Leatherman.  Total fail


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[Obi1shinobee]

WAVE , SURGE , SUPERTOOL , BLAST > ALL NEW LEATHERBOY 

[Gareth]

While this thread does make for pretty depressing reading it did spur me to pick up my Pulse, just to remind myself that LM really could make an excellent MT.

[Obi1shinobee]

While this thread does make for pretty depressing reading it did spur me to pick up my Pulse, just to remind myself that LM really could make an excellent MT.

 

[sawman]

While this thread does make for pretty depressing reading it did spur me to pick up my Pulse, just to remind myself that LM really could make an excellent MT.

As super soured as I am with LM right now I still love my Wave, Wingman and Rebar. I do hope they haven't wasted too much money on the production of the OHT and SIGNAL. Two terrible, terrible tools. What gets me also are the higher than Victorinox prices but WITHOUT the Vic QC

[Zephon]

Based on the comments here, I feel the Signal was designed with some analysts' checklist who just wanted to say "I want all of these in a multitool. Period." 

"We'll sell it to those people who are looking for a one-stop-shop piece of gear to keep in their cars or bags for worst case scenarios.  They won't actually use it but rather they'll just take comfort in the fact that there's something like this in their car or bag. Oh, and if all heck breaks loose, there's always FEMA or homeland security to take care of us."


Seeing the price of the tool, it'll probably cost double when it shows up in local stores.  With a "preparedness mentality" trending here these days due to earthquakes happening all over the globe (except here), I'm sure there will be people here who'll buy the Spirit based on tool load-out alone.  The tragedy of it all is that this'll just encourage more tools like this.

 

[Obi1shinobee]

LEATHERMAN IF YOU READ THIS.. LOOK AT MTO MEMBER PWNED YOU..  http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,52222.0.html    GREAT ONE ZOIDBERG

[rishardh]

WAVE , SURGE , SUPERTOOL , BLAST > ALL NEW LEATHERBOY 

I see what you did there 

[Obi1shinobee]

WAVE , SURGE , SUPERTOOL , BLAST > ALL NEW LEATHERBOY 

I see what you did there 

IM YOUR HUCKLEBERRY !!

[dks]

I said it before, but:

-99.9% of the people who buy multiools buy them as gadgets that will never be used either to show to their friends once a year, impressing them with all its functions, or to give as present to a husband/father/wife etc, who will never use it.

-Most people actually using pliers based multitools use cheap Chinese ones, maybe with car name on them, given free etc. - A lot more of those are sold everyday.

-A LM, SOG, Gerber etc, especially with the price they have in most of the world (i.e. not the US) are just expensive gadgets/presents, rather than cheap gadgets/presents

-I know a few people that actually do have them - none use them. A few are firemen, but just use a cheap Chinese multiool, since they do  not want to damage their expensive LM (according to them).

-Most people that actually need tools will have proper tools and no real need to compromise, with a multitool.

-The only multittol you will see people use regularly will be a SAK, usually a classic or a thin 91/85mm model

-The people that actually analyse and discuss and test multitools, like we do here, are a very small minority, which can not even make a dent in the multiool makers sales - We have been complaining about the SOG Powerduo since it was first made -guess what? it is still being made, exactly the same, with the same stellar quality, and is probably selling well...

-The LM signal looks pretty, has a lot of functions and it will be bought by many people who will give it as an expensive present to family members who will never use it.

-Most companies also make more serious multitools, for those that want to buy them and use them.

[Mextreme]

I said it before, but:

-99.9% of the people who buy multiools buy them as gadgets that will never be used either to show to their friends once a year, impressing them with all its functions, or to give as present to a husband/father/wife etc, who will never use it.

-Most people actually using pliers based multitools use cheap Chinese ones, maybe with car name on them, given free etc. - A lot more of those are sold everyday.

-A LM, SOG, Gerber etc, especially with the price they have in most of the world (i.e. not the US) are just expensive gadgets/presents, rather than cheap gadgets/presents

-I know a few people that actually do have them - none use them. A few are firemen, but just use a cheap Chinese multiool, since they do  not want to damage their expensive LM (according to them).

-Most people that actually need tools will have proper tools and no real need to compromise, with a multitool.

-The only multittol you will see people use regularly will be a SAK, usually a classic or a thin 91/85mm model

-The people that actually analyse and discuss and test multitools, like we do here, are a very small minority, which can not even make a dent in the multiool makers sales - We have been complaining about the SOG Powerduo since it was first made -guess what? it is still being made, exactly the same, with the same stellar quality, and is probably selling well...

-The LM signal looks pretty, has a lot of functions and it will be bought by many people who will give it as an expensive present to family members who will never use it.

-Most companies also make more serious multitools, for those that want to buy them and use them.

That is sadly so true.

However I still think these companies should listen carefully. A lot of video reviews posted  by the "freaks" that are multi tool connesiurs reach far beyond the "choire". Also there are a lot of free engineering advice from really knowledgeable people to take advantage of.