Ferguson

[kirk13]

Can I just say,well done everyone! This is a very contraversal subject,and it's stayed on track and focused!

 

[Syncop8r]

Excellent observation and summary Lynn. 

[Chako]

In Canada, the only time we see riots are after a Hockey win of the Stanley, or  when Canada hosts the G8/G20. The hockey riots are just that, a bunch of whacked out fans that go on a rampage to celebrate the win, or loss of their favorite Canadian Hockey team. With these losers, a win or lose matters little.

Now when Canada hosts the G8 or G20, we get an international group of trouble makers that mix with our home grown ones...and these tend to get nasty. I recall a few years ago, a particularly nasty rumble with the police and rioters. It got out of hand by the police, following orders from very high up, that many got in trouble after the fact for inappropriate behaviour. In fact, there were police undercover agents planted in a few groups to stir things up to allow the police to get all hardcore. It was a giant PR disaster for the government and police forces after videos showing such provocateur agents were often the first to incite the riot. These were only identified after the fact once cell phone footage was reviewed by the community.

I sincerely hope such tactics will not be played out again...because there were a lot of peaceful demonstrators, and the few ruined it for the majority. But yeah, even Canada gets is share of stupidity, and I am unhappy to say this...from both sides of demonstrators and police.

[Lichtbote]

Damn, when i read "Ferguson" in the topic, i thought you got one for your new house. 

[Aloha]

Rioting is sparked by many things underlying a group or community.  As simple as it may be are as complex the reasons.  The types of folks who engage from the onset are those who feel they haven't been heard to the opportunistic, they all have their reasons, right, wrong, or whatever.

LA has had some doosies when it comes to riots for sure as the world saw after the 1992's court ruling.  I've always felt those who engage are people who feel disenfranchised and frustrated.  Malcolm X said certain communities are powder kegs to which any, ANY spark will set it off.

We had protests here in my city as well as a result of the situation in your city.  A few neighborhoods took to the streets and blocked traffic while others marched peacefully thru their areas.   

Without getting too political, let me end with the growing "authority" of police in our county is typically the spark that sets these so called powder kegs off.     

[captain spaulding]

The crowds are almost never unanimous in what they want.

Trouble is somebody has an interest in you not being able to discern between the groups...

There is a class war out there and protestors must be seen exclusively as trouble makers though this isn't always the case.

More like a race war.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Damn, when i read "Ferguson" in the topic, i thought you got one for your new house. 

I am so glad I wasn't the only one who thought this.

I was so upset when I learned it was a fictional brand.  I sooooo wanted a Ferguson.

Def

Sent from my smurfing hunk of techno sorcery

[dks]

I do not buy the idea that the police are to blame for everything and that the mob stealing and burning property is innocent or put up to it by the police.

I am aware of the issues with the police in some countries but to keep blaming them for the troubles now because of what happened 20 or 40 years ago  does not seem right. (I am not referring to the specific incident in question, but in general)

I do know of countries where the police is still the baddy (used as weapons by the regime, taking kickbacks/bribes for everything), but this is not true for modern, democratic societies.

And yes, I was thinking of the toilet too... 

[Kampfer]

One shall not just ask for trust and respect, he shall earn it with hard work and action.

[ToolJoe]

   All I will say is that I don't think any of the destruction and mayhem that is going on is necessary.

[Mr. Whippy]

Unless one considers the jury "bought" and the whole system corrupt (conspiracy theory), the REAL pressure on the grand jury was to indict.  Afterall, that's NOT a conviction, it just means the officer is THEN actually tried in court on the charges.  The grand jury knew that letting him go would lead to protests and likely rioting and yet they didn't think the evidence was enough to bring him to trial.

Much of that evidence wasn't released prior to the grand jury because witnesses changed their testimony after hearing their testimony contradicted the evidence.  And the press is simply fueling this for financial gain.  It's truly a sad demonstration of what's wrong in American society today.

[Aloha]

I hear you DKS and personally I agree there is never a reason to react in a violent and non law abiding manner.
 

What I am referring to is Signs vs Symptoms like in medicine.  I'm also referring to what people/groups who riot have echoed long before I was on planet earth.  Riots are nothing new as we know and no country is immune.  The last few riots that have sparked here in the US have been law enforcement related.  What I was stating was those who have rioted have said what I last mentioned in my post.     

I should have added government as well others and not singled out law enforcement my apologies.  I don't want to get political in my tone so I paraphrased what has been said over the years and most recently.  These aren't my views these were and are views expressed.     

There are rumor that the "protestors" in my city were "professional" in nature and had other agendas.

Patience in highly charged situations like these needs to be exercised.  Take the case back to court, appeal, or any number of responses rather than take it to the streets.  I am not a hot head by nature and so rioting isn't something I would take to.


Let me say clearly;
I support all those who have chosen the law enforcement profession and respect the laws that govern my city and state.  I have many friends and relatives who are part of this community.  I again am stating was has been stated and echoed by those who riot. 


Lastly,  what I never understood was those sports riots  .

 

       

[dks]

Aloha, I was not referring to your post, or even specifically to this thread.

It was more of a general observation, where you get people/parties blaming the police for all evils and if e.g. a policeman gets hurt for no reason/because of what they symbolise rather than for what they have personally done, they are not willing to condemn the persons attacking policemen.

Protest, complain, but do not go about destroying peoples property and stealing and claim that what you are doing is not a criminal activity, or that the public wants you to do it.

[sawman]

Screw profiling, I say put ALL the protesters in jail!

[ryan1835]

If it was a white cop shooting a white man would there be as much up roar? or a black cop shooting a black man? or a black cop shooting a white man?

i don't think so.

i think if cops carrying guns get made to wear video cameras from this incident then that can only be a good thing - its alot easier for people to say the cop should have done this or that when they were not there and probably never been in any sort of volitile situations. at least with cameras there is no bending of the truth.

[Lynn LeFey]

i think if cops carrying guns get made to wear video cameras from this incident then that can only be a good thing - its alot easier for people to say the cop should have done this or that when they were not there and probably never been in any sort of volitile situations. at least with cameras there is no bending of the truth.

It would clarify a lot of stuff, IMO. And with the cost of such tech dropping, such equipment is reasonable for police budgets.

Eye Witness Testimony is notoriously unreliable. Unfortunately, for some reason, this seems to only get applied to non-officers. Officers, like any other human, are bad witnesses. Digital video doesn't mis-remember.

In this specific case, though, forensic evidence doesn't lie, either. Believing that multiple independent forensic examinations, all coming to the same conclusion, were faulty via collusion to some conspiracy stretches credibility beyond reason for me.

[captain spaulding]

If it was a white cop shooting a white man would there be as much up roar? or a black cop shooting a black man? or a black cop shooting a white man?

i don't think so.

Exactly.

[kkokkolis]

No politics here, I use that paper in my presentations (I run the first maintenence programs in Greek prisons)

[captain spaulding]

Those "statistics" are such bullsmurf. Black men aren't more likely to go to jail because they are being unjustly treated. Its because black males are the majority of the people doing the crimes that will put you in jail.

Call me a racist if you like. Its the truth.

[Pacu]

people have all kinds of agendas clashing up there...could be ripe for false flag incidents.

[Mr. Whippy]

This is a quote from a research paper from the Pew Research group.  You never see this data in the US media because it runs counter to what the target market population believes:

A disproportionate share of gun homicide victims are black (55% in 2010, compared with the 13% black share of the population). Whites were 25% of victims but 65% of the population in 2010. Hispanics were 17% of victims and 16% of the population in 2010.

This comes from a 2013 report on gun violence in the US (which is at the lowest level since the early 1960's, btw, despite popular opinion).

Here's a link to the complete article

[jzmtl]

When I lived in southern US, every day on the evening news there were one or two wanted, 90% of the time it's black men.

[Lynn LeFey]

Call me a racist if you like.

Then I do. You're a racist. If you don't bother to look at the factors that CAUSE the actions, then you blindly assume a group of people are somehow inferior. And that's what you're DOING, and that's racism.

Look at crime statistics alone is only shows you where the crimes happen, not WHY they happen.

At this point, it's turned really problematic for me. I can argue my smurfing face blue, and present a smurfing metric ton of information, but that's pointless, because you've made up your mind on the matter. I'll just go the other route, say this has crossed any line of reasonable discourse, and ask that the thread be closed.

[Mr. Whippy]

First, let me do Moderator business:

Let's keep this civil all.

Now: I would say that the gun homicide rates are evidence of a more violent culture (with such a disproportionate number of AA gun homicides when compared to hispanics and whites).

HOWEVER, incarceration rates are bloated due to low level drug convictions.   Some could say it's evidence of a failed drug policy (war on drugs) and is indicative that it should instead be treated as a public health problem (like many European nations do).

[captain spaulding]

Call me a racist if you like.

Then I do. You're a racist. If you don't bother to look at the factors that CAUSE the actions, then you blindly assume a group of people are somehow inferior. And that's what you're DOING, and that's racism.

Look at crime statistics alone is only shows you where the crimes happen, not WHY they happen.

At this point, it's turned really problematic for me. I can argue my smurfing face blue, and present a smurfing metric ton of information, but that's pointless, because you've made up your mind on the matter. I'll just go the other route, say this has crossed any line of reasonable discourse, and ask that the thread be closed.

That's fine and that is your opinion. I am interested to hear why location or why the crime happened matters in the statistics of the race that committed the crime. No one is making anyone go out and commit crime. It is completely determined by the individual. I in no way called anyone inferior by the way.

I am keeping this civil and am genuinely interested in your opinion.

[nate j]

In this specific case, though, forensic evidence doesn't lie, either. Believing that multiple independent forensic examinations, all coming to the same conclusion, were faulty via collusion to some conspiracy stretches credibility beyond reason for me.

I agree, and you've said it more politely than I could have.

[Aloha]

Aloha, I was not referring to your post, or even specifically to this thread.

It was more of a general observation, where you get people/parties blaming the police for all evils and if e.g. a policeman gets hurt for no reason/because of what they symbolise rather than for what they have personally done, they are not willing to condemn the persons attacking policemen.

Protest, complain, but do not go about destroying peoples property and stealing and claim that what you are doing is not a criminal activity, or that the public wants you to do it.

I know my friend no harm done 

I just re read my post and wanted to make clear these weren't my views.  I also feel there are better ways to express ones dissatisfaction with a courts rulings.  Stealing and harming others is in no way appropriate nor an acceptable form of expression.   

[Lynn LeFey]

Now: I would say that the gun homicide rates are evidence of a more violent culture (with such a disproportionate number of AA gun homicides when compared to hispanics and whites).

Not even cultural. Firearm violence dropped dramatically in the 2000s, and there is strong evidence to support that it was largely due to drops in gang activity.

The key issue is poverty, not race. Correlation is not causation. Is criminal activity higher among poor than rich, regardless of race? Yes. Because some people do what they can to get ahead.

Hey, you all remember the prohibition era gangsters? They were those 'dirty Italians and Irish' and such. The poor. But, not just the poor. The Urban poor, where population densities allow them to congregate into gangs.

Get rid of illegal drug markets (alcohol in prohibition era, crack, heroine, etc now) and you take away the money machine driving gang violence. It doesn't solve the poverty problem, but cuts down on the warring over turf, which is the largest driving force of gun violence in the U.S.

I have found exactly zero scientific information to back the notion that blacks, racially or culturally, are more prone to violence than whites. Well... except for one paper from a guy pushing an agenda, and to say I doubt that paper was peer reviewed goes without saying. And since the very question being posed by the paper is scientifically flawed, it took about 1 nanosecond to dismiss it.

[Mr. Whippy]

Lynn, I would argue that the illegal drug culture is currently a major component of inner city poor black culture.  That is not racist, that is demographic.   Just like being poor is demographic.

[Grant Lamontagne]

This needs to close now before anyone says something that shouldn't be said.

Def

Sent from my smurfing hunk of techno sorcery