Ferguson

[Lynn LeFey]

I don't know if the story is leaking around the whole globe, or just the hot topic of the 24/7 yap crap of American news, but there was a shooting some time back in Ferguson, MO... and the police officer under investigation for it is most likely not going to be brought up on charges. There have been widespread protests about this. What this means is, whether or not riots or rowdy protests or whatever happen, the National Guard and tons of police and media are camped out in Clayton, where the hearings are being held. Both are portions of the greater St. Louis metropolitan area.

They have not, as of this moment made the announcement, but supposedly there will be no indictment. This means marches at very least, probably protesters intentionally blocking roads, including highway offramps, and generally causing problems with the normal flow of the St. Louis area. Very likely, there will be riots, and store fires, and general mayhem.

Why does any of this matter to me?

Because my husband has a dental appointment in Clayton tomorrow morning to get a root canal. Great timing.

I don't want this to be political, and mods feel free to clamp it down if it gets so. I've resisted the urge to post anything on this until now, when it has a direct impact on my day to day life. Otherwise, I will make no comment on my feelings on the matter. Just reporting the facts here. If you need a primer, I suggest the wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

[kirk13]

Can you not put your Wave to good use?

[captain spaulding]

I think this thread will get out of hand real quick. Probably from me personally as I have a strong opinion on the matter and will most likely offend and piss off many members. I just see this thread not ending well unless it is locked sooner than later. Just my thoughts and I will try to stay out of it if this thread does not get locked, but I cannot guarantee anything.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Regardless of how this thread goes, Lynn (and anyone else in the area) I hope everyone stays safe. 

Yes, the real world is likely to have major issues as a result of this, no matter what the result is.   Many people have strong feelings and many more have chips on their shoulders and are itching for any excuse.

I have instructed the Mod staff to let this run as long as it stays positive and constructive.  If we can manage that,  and remember that differing opinions are allowed, then we will all have done ourselves proud.  If not, well,  that's what thread lock is for.

Def

Sent from my smurfing hunk of techno sorcery

[captain spaulding]

Regardless of how this thread goes, Lynn (and anyone else in the area) I hope everyone stays safe. 

Yes, the real world is likely to have major issues as a result of this, no matter what the result is.   Many people have strong feelings and many more have chips on their shoulders and are itching for any excuse.

I have instructed the Mod staff to let this run as long as it stays positive and constructive.  If we can manage that,  and remember that differing opinions are allowed, then we will all have done ourselves proud.  If not, well,  that's what thread lock is for.

Def

Sent from my smurfing hunk of techno sorcery

Agreed. 

To bad you and your husband do not have your CCW yet.

[jzmtl]

I've followed it off and on, media like to paint it black and white (metaphorically), but it's gray at best. Neither side is as innocent as they sometimes portrayed to be.

There was an article using this to talk about the militarization of police in US, I thought it was a great read and sad direction, which unfortunately are seeping pass the border to here as well.

[Lynn LeFey]

No need for CCW. We don't need CCW if we don't leave the house. There's even a weird thing about 'transporting a firearm' in Illinois. You can have a firearm, just not loaded. You can even have a loaded magazine with you, as long as it's in a separate 'container', and the meaning of 'container' is basically ANYTHING.

The odds of anything happening here are extremely low. Essentially none. Other major metro areas are at higher risk. We're WAY on the outside of the metro area. Suburbs, almost to the point of cornfields.

The 'morally gray' of this issue is even more vague than most outsiders know, because it's history on top of history, on top of history. Back to Dred Scott and before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott

There are white supremacists and neo-nazis active in the area, on police forces, and in city governments. When you have to completely disband a police force (Jennings, MO), it speaks to systemic problems. On the other side of that, the protesters are no longer interested in the facts of the case. They want blood, regardless. And in their rage, they will destroy their own neighborhoods.

No one is right here. But in any case, innocent people will get caught in this. And maybe some not so innocent but still not deserving of what will happen to them. There will almost certainly be accidental deaths. There will almost certainly be intentional deaths.

It's an ugly, terrible mess.
 

[Lynn LeFey]

As suspected, no charges will be brought against the officer.

Now, let's just hope the riots aren't too terrible.

[Lynn LeFey]

10 PM.

Looting, businesses on fire. A report of a peaceful protestor hit in the face with a piece of concrete. Molotov cocktail thrown at police. Protestors have blocked i-44 and some streets. Yay.

[captain spaulding]

10 PM.

Looting, businesses on fire. A report of a peaceful protestor hit in the face with a piece of concrete. Molotov cocktail thrown at police. Protestors have blocked i-44 and some streets. Yay.

Did you expect any less from the pieces of smurf? 

[Kampfer]

Probably from me personally as I have a strong opinion on the matter and will most likely offend and piss off many members.

I have a strong opinion on many matters and will most likely offend and piss off many many people.
So I will keep my mouth shut and guns loaded.

[Kampfer]

All quiet on the western front,
Guns loaded, no looters show up.
Good night America.

[Etherealicer]

Usually its pretty quite in Switzerland, except for 1st of Mai (International Workers' Day). Then the crazies show up and destroy property (cars mostly) in their "fight for the little man". Seriously, I don't get that.
Whatever the cause, fighting for it with violence and destruction makes no sense to me.

[firiki]

Usually its pretty quite in Switzerland, except for 1st of Mai (International Workers' Day). Then the crazies show up and destroy property (cars mostly) in their "fight for the little man". Seriously, I don't get that.
Whatever the cause, fighting for it with violence and destruction makes no sense to me.

Denigration, could be an explanation 

It seems the jury that found nothing worth inquiring about in the Ferguson case took that verb, denigrate, very literally ?

Edit: Spelling error corrected

[firiki]

There are white supremacists and neo-nazis active in the area, on police forces, and in city governments.

They say a picture speaks a thousand words, so:

[captain spaulding]

EDIT:

I was going to say something, but it probably would of got me banned so i'm restraining myself and going to bed. 

I like this place to much to get banned. 

[Kampfer]

If you think we have freedom of speech in America, you are right, but there are consequences.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Of course you do- everything has consequences. 

I think we can all agree that rioting has gotten too common these days and I hope that at least all of our people and their loved ones are safe. I hate to be selfish by worrying about our people, but if everyone had someone to worry about them and check in on them there would be less people out destroying the lives and belongings of others.

Def

[Lynn LeFey]

Protesters were marching this morning in Clayton, but between the Justice Center (where the Grand Jury convened) and the nearby Shaw Park. They never got near where my hubby went for his dental appointment, and were not blocking roads this morning.

This concludes any interaction we're likely to have with the entire situation.

We'll just not go into the city center or north until things calm down.

[Lynn LeFey]

Ah... man!

Apparently, yesterday, rioters smashed the windows of 'Jay International Market' on South Grand. Dammit!

That market is where we go to get all the stuff we can't get in standard grocery stores. They have big bags of rice stacked in the front of the store, right by the windows. I've made jokes before that their store front is bulletproof, with rice filled 'sandbags'. It would literally stop assault rifle rounds, but it won't stop bricks from breaking the windows.

Also, artists came in today to paint the boards used to cover broken windows all along South Grand. I think that's really cool.

[Higgins617]

There are now rioters in Boston as well, they tried storming onto the highway and block that. I'm sorry but that sounds like a pretty awful plan to me. Massachusetts drivers won't even stop for people where it's legally required, nevermind on a massive highway.

[Lynn LeFey]

Yeah, protestors blocked i-44 in St. Louis last night and again today, at different locations. I'm waiting for the inevitable time when a bunch of them get run over. Scary stuff.

[Higgins617]

I just don't get it, right or wrong going out and breaking the law sure as smurf isn't going to do anything to help whatever cause you're rallying for.

[Lynn LeFey]

This is something I've considered for a long time, and I have been watching the Ferguson situation closely. So, here's the answer (at least as far as I can figure).

The people out in the streets are not one monolithic group. They're not all after the same thing.

1) There are people out marching, organizing, and calling for visibility of what they feel are legitimate grievances.

2) There are criminals taking advantage of the police having to keep an eye on group 1 to go looting.

3) There are opportunists, who see group 2, and jump in on the looting.

4) There are people worked up into a frenzy, doing vandalism, and sometimes arson.

5) In at least one case, someone killed a guy, shot him to death, then put him in a car, and set the car on fire. So, someone is using all the chaos as a screen for murder. Who knows what the murder was about!

6) Some of group 4 might actually be arsonists, just waiting for an opportunity.

7) Some of the people marching with group one, might actually be instigators, TRYING to start stuff between peaceful protestors and police. The equivalent of internet trolls, but in real life. One article I read called this type of person an 'agent provocateur', but I don't think this definition fits exactly. It's almost more like the Joker, someone who just wants to watch the world burn.

8 ) Some folks might just see all the chaos as a big party. Get drunk, go out in the streets, bust a few windows. torch a car. whatevs.

9) People might get swept up in the moment, and transform from one group to another. They start out angry and wanting to make a change through protest, get swept up in a crowd, and the next thing you know, they're helping tip over a police cruiser, because they're so mad.

The point here is that, by and large, the people breaking the law are NOT the people rallying to a cause. I would caveat that by saying sometimes the protestors DO knowingly and intentionally step outside the bounds of the law, like blocking highways, but these are peaceful, if unlawful, acts of civil disobedience.

The rioting, looting, and arson that seem to inevitably come with protests, those are people breaking the law, knowing that the odds of getting caught are severely diminished when everyone else is breaking the law at the same time. Opportunistic crime. During the first rioting/looting back in, like, September, in Ferguson, the police caught (if I remember right) 12 or so looters. 2/3 of them were not from Ferguson! They came into Ferguson to loot, because there was opportunity.

I have been thinking about how to describe this phenomena since the L.A. riots, but I didn't know L.A. nearly so well as I know St. Louis.

I might not be 100% right, here, but I think the model fits the evidence.

My problem is... EVERY TIME I've ever heard of big protest march things like this, there ALWAYS seem to be riots and looting. So... maybe spontaneous protests aren't such a good idea. When there are organized marches, where you get permits, and such, then you don't see that, or at least not to the same degree. Unsanctioned protested seem almost inevitably to lead to opportunistic crime by draining law enforcement resources.

My thoughts on the phenomena. Sorry for the long write-up, but this is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. You CANNOT think of this as 'those people' doing this or that. They're not one monolithic group. Unfortunately, no matter how well-intentioned, the peaceful types are creating the opportunity for the criminal types.

[kkokkolis]

We had a similar situation in Athens a couple of years ago, when a cop killed a 16 year old in cold blood (he didn't do anything). The same in Paris, at least twice. And in Istanbul. There are always vandals, thiefs, looters and other apolitical elements that take advantage of the situation to do their job.

[Higgins617]

Nope, I can absolutely appreciate the thought you put into that. Thank you. I'm not sure I could say much any better if I tried.

[captain spaulding]

I agree with most of what you have said Lynn. Their are a couple things I would disagree with, but on a whole I think you are correct.

[Etherealicer]

I also agree with that list.

What I often miss is group 1 clearly separating themselves from the other groups.

[jzmtl]

Heck people riot/burn/loot after a freakin sports game, so it's basically a bunch of smurfkickers who do it every opportunity they get.

[firiki]

Heck people riot/burn/loot after a freakin sports game, so it's basically a bunch of smurfkickers who do it every opportunity they get.

That's decadence for you...

I also agree with that list. +1

What I often miss is group 1 clearly separating themselves from the other groups.

The crowds are almost never unanimous in what they want.

Trouble is somebody has an interest in you not being able to discern between the groups...

There is a class war out there and protestors must be seen exclusively as trouble makers though this isn't always the case.