Boker > SAK

[Smaug]

Yeah, he's not that well-informed on SAKs. At the very least, he could have picked a comparably-priced SAK with a tool set he liked that cost the same as the Boker.

However, he did make some fair points:

• Better blade steel. I bet Vic uses the softer steel for reasons other than cost. Like the fact that sometimes it bends instead of breaks, leading to fewer service tickets. But we should remember that Vic gave it a try with a harder blade steel in the 80s with the Mauser.
• Pocket clip. Precious few SAKs have them, even though they're quite useful.
• Scale material. Yeah, Vic has alox, but I don't think even that is comparable to G10, as far as resilience and grippability when wet.
• Assembled with Torx screws instead of rivets.

He also kind of missed the point when he started the article by saying how slick SAKs are, then knocked them later for not being grippy enough. The slickness is part of what makes them so nice to POCKET carry. No one tears up their pockets with SAKs, like the tactical folder guys do.

One other thing to remember is that articles with attention-grabbing titles get more views than those with boring ones. So he was intentionally being dramatic in the way he phrased his question.

[Tomcat_81]

Clickbaiting. I don't care about reviews based upon looks and half an hour of using. Especially if written by someone who doubts the usefulness of tweezers and toothpicks 'cause he lacks imagination. And doesn't even bother to look a bit closer and check on materials.

Victorinox houses its stainless steel tools in stainless steel liners backed by stainless steel springs.

And finally good luck with the glass breaker on an ordinary glass door or window.
Tomcat

PS: The Böker isn't a bad tool. Give it a couple of years of refining and we'll have more fun together. Right now it seemed good and reliable, but just didn't make it into my edc rotation.

[Smaug]

Thought about picking up one of the Bokers for the collection, until I found out the Tech-Tools are made in China. That killed it for me.

Chinese are fully capable of producing a quality product. It only depends on their quality control department, and how closely it is supervised by the mothership.

The best tea pot I've ever seen was Chinese. It was top quality ceramic, and had an airtight fit between the lid and pot. Having been to China several times to visit my wife when we were courting, I saw that a lot of the high quality stuff they have there isn't exported, since when people think 'China' they think 'cheap' and 'low quality.'

So basically, don't give up just based on the country of manufacture, but certainly keep your eyes open for signs of quality. (or lack thereof)

[Fortytwo]

Thought about picking up one of the Bokers for the collection, until I found out the Tech-Tools are made in China. That killed it for me.

Chinese are fully capable of producing a quality product. It only depends on their quality control department, and how closely it is supervised by the mothership.

The best tea pot I've ever seen was Chinese. It was top quality ceramic, and had an airtight fit between the lid and pot. Having been to China several times to visit my wife when we were courting, I saw that a lot of the high quality stuff they have there isn't exported, since when people think 'China' they think 'cheap' and 'low quality.'

So basically, don't give up just based on the country of manufacture, but certainly keep your eyes open for signs of quality. (or lack thereof)

What you say is true. The sad part is that since companies know that China=cheap/low quality in the eyes of their customers they don't even try getting anything of high quality. Instead they inform the Chinese of how little they are willing to pay and the Chinese send back goods with a quality level in accordance to this.

[Zephon]

Curious on what Boker will be like, say, 50 years down the road.  I'm sure my Vics can still be used/abused 50 years from now and the company will still be churning up pocket knives just like how they've been doing the last 50 years.


Yeah, that China thing is a little tricky.  You guys are right in saying that you'll get what you pay for regarding anything made in China.  Plus there are anecdotes from people who plan to manufacture stuff in China that, before the ink dries from a contract, someone has photographed their prototype and would be releasing copies of the item already.  Though that's a topic for another discussion all together.

[dks]

Another one of those threads.....

The Byrd line of Spyderco is made in China, so are RR and most electronics (Casio?). The Chinese will give you what you ask for. I think most people still assume that China has just one small factory in someones basement.

The SOG Powerduo and Gerber dime are made in China, have serious issues but SOG and Gerber are happy with them, so it must be what they ordered, not the Chinese taking advantage of poor US companies.

You can get dodgy products from any country. The Swiza is Swiss made but seems to have some issues, VAG has emission problems and it is German, and many US cars are known for questionable quality (remember the car industry meltdown from a few years ago?). Bear ans sons are US made and so are GEC. It does not mean they are of the same quality.

Specify what you want, research and install QA first and then QC.

And, I have not bought a Boker in several years. A backspring broke for no reason, in one of their plus, Chinese, line slipjoints, I contacted Boker in Germany, twice I think, through their official email and they have not bothered to reply.

So I just do not buy any of their products, irrespective of where they are made.

Blame the company that sells you the bad product, not the country that makes them.

[batosai117]

I received both of mine in today. I picked up the #5 and #6. The #5 is like a Deluxe Tinker and the #6 reminds me of the 108mm GAK and/or Farmer.

My initial thoughts are that they are impressive and the tools are all thicker than the 91mm tools. The bottle opener / large flathead is the same size as the 91mm flathead but it's thicker than the 93mm flathead.

The #6 would be my go to for the outdoors while the #5 is a good alternative to the Deluxe Tinker. The scissors on mine cut everything even loose paper and plastic.

I did notice that the tools aren't as snappy as Victorinox but they are very nice anyways.

For me being in Law Enforcement I actually like the seat belt cutter and glass breaker. I wish the Philips on the seat belt cutter was placed elsewhere but I'll make do.

Here's some comparison pics:




Sent from my electronic multi-tool.

[Etherealicer]

For me being in Law Enforcement I actually like the seat belt cutter and glass breaker. I wish the Philips on the seat belt cutter was placed elsewhere but I'll make do.

Before you rely on the seat belt cutter you should test it, I tried it on cloth / thread and stuff, it did not cut well. Oh... and let us know how it does on a seat-belt.
As for the glass-breaker I have no real opinion, I hope someone tries it and reports back

[Smaug]

Yeah, I think the Vic Rescue Tool might be the better choice.

[Scoon]

A few thoughts.

1. I'll give him the first point. I do sometimes wish that my SAKs could be completely deconstructed for a thorough cleaning, although I reckon that having a non-teardownable knife means that it will never, ever lose that millimetre-perfect Swiss engineering fit that goes into a SAK. Every single time I hear that classic Victorinox THUNK as one of the tools snaps back in place, I get a small shot of satisfaction (and endorphins lol).

2. "It comes sharp, but the SAK loses it quickly". Well yeah... it's stainless steel. That's how it works, noob. Buy a sharpener.

3. TBH the boker looks as if the head of product development plopped a Vic on the table in front of some lawyers and engineers and said, "What is the minimum amount that we can modify this knife to not get sued when we release something that's basically a copy?"

3. Full disclosure I am Victorinox 'till I die.

[anditsgone]

Did he also just say that Vic uses SS liners?

Victorinox houses its stainless steel tools in stainless steel liners backed by stainless steel springs.

His attitude to the glass-breaker makes me think he's seen a bit to many action-movies.

the glass breaker could save crucial seconds should you ever need to flee a building through locked or otherwise inaccessible doors or windows. Just look around any urban environment and imagine that every piece of glass is now an available exit.

In my world there's also the problem of the Boker not really knowing what it wants to be. Does it want to be the slightly more dressy knife with the wine opener? Or the survival type with line-cutter, G10 and glass breaker? There's a certain measure of mall-ninjaness (or would the correct term be mall-ninjutsu?) in the author, that's for sure.

I agree on that. They should just stick with making high quality expensive german made knives. The knives from those line are awesome.

The boker plus and boker magnum line are made in china and i personally find it kills the brand name a little bit.
If a manufacturer decides to make it's products in china i know enough. MONEYYYYYY!!!!!! PROFITTTT!!!!

Also one of the reasons why i stopped buy cold steel knives.
Paying 200 euros for a knife and stamp TAIWAN in letter size 11 on the blade. I thought they where american proud>

They probably make a 60 euro profit on every knife.

[batosai117]

Well partners, after only a mere 3 days of ownership I have some updates:

Although the tech tools are nice to hold its just not the same feeling as using a Victorinox. I had a brief experiment today when I took my family fishing for a few hours before work. I had the tech tool riding up front and my beautiful Ruby Deluxe Tinker in my back pocket. Even though the tech tool was where I always carry my EDC (right front pocket) I found myself reaching for my Deluxe Tinker.

I feel more prepared with my SAK versus the newer tech tool.


Sent from my electronic multi-tool.

[SAK Guy]

Well partners, after only a mere 3 days of ownership I have some updates:

Although the tech tools are nice to hold its just not the same feeling as using a Victorinox. I had a brief experiment today when I took my family fishing for a few hours before work. I had the tech tool riding up front and my beautiful Ruby Deluxe Tinker in my back pocket. Even though the tech tool was where I always carry my EDC (right front pocket) I found myself reaching for my Deluxe Tinker.

I feel more prepared with my SAK versus the newer tech tool.


Sent from my electronic multi-tool.

You had 130 years of experience in that back pocket.

[Smaug]

Well partners, after only a mere 3 days of ownership I have some updates:

Although the tech tools are nice to hold its just not the same feeling as using a Victorinox.

"Feeling the same" shouldn't be the goal. If that's what you want, just stick with the same thing. How about 'feeling better' or 'works better?'

I had a brief experiment today when I took my family fishing for a few hours before work. I had the tech tool riding up front and my beautiful Ruby Deluxe Tinker in my back pocket. Even though the tech tool was where I always carry my EDC (right front pocket) I found myself reaching for my Deluxe Tinker.

I feel more prepared with my SAK versus the newer tech tool.

Why?

So far, it's sounds like a case of familiarity breeds contentment.

[Smaug]

anditsgone: I agree that "Designed in Germany, produced in China" waters it down. Even if the quality is the same.

<rant>It says something about the company management: "We value profit above employing our own citizens or national pride."

THAT ^, in addition to the quality and intuitive designs, is a large part of what makes Victorinox so special. As long as Boker, Cold Steel, etc., are producing offshore to maximize profits, instead of figuring out ways to be profitable onshore, they're just not getting the whole picture.

'know what else? To me, it's doesn't even matter what nationality we're speaking about. If it was a (original) Chinese design, I'd be find with it being made in China.

It's just about doing The Right Thing, and that's something that big, publicly-owned businesses don't get. Their highest priority is maximizing profits to their shareholders, thus ensuring their continuing employment. With companies that have a family-type business model like Victorinox, they've learned that doing The Right Thing will also help preserve their future, because people respect them for reasons other than how much money they can earn from them.</rant>

[dks]

Yes, blame capitalism.... I assume the alternative is much better.

[AimlessWanderer]

 

[batosai117]

Well partners, after only a mere 3 days of ownership I have some updates:

Although the tech tools are nice to hold its just not the same feeling as using a Victorinox.

"Feeling the same" shouldn't be the goal. If that's what you want, just stick with the same thing. How about 'feeling better' or 'works better?'

I had a brief experiment today when I took my family fishing for a few hours before work. I had the tech tool riding up front and my beautiful Ruby Deluxe Tinker in my back pocket. Even though the tech tool was where I always carry my EDC (right front pocket) I found myself reaching for my Deluxe Tinker.

I feel more prepared with my SAK versus the newer tech tool.

Why?

So far, it's sounds like a case of familiarity breeds contentment.

I suppose I should clarify. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the tech tools that I have. In fact the guys at work are interested because they like the tools, handle scales, and the pocket clip. I just don't get that satisfying feeling from using it like I do from my Victorinox knives. They are tried and true and for me this go around if it ain't broke don't fix it.


Sent from my electronic multi-tool.

[BerkshireHunter]

Fit and finish -my boker city tool came with unsightly scratches on the main blade from factory. 

Don't care for the weird serrated tool. Also, if you rotate the pocket clip, you can over-tighten the screws so they impede tools on the other side, and if you leave them a tad loose they stick out a bit. That kind of fit seems a bit cheap and Chinese to me. Not as nice as the Vic products imho.

[WoodsDuck]

Am I the only one who thinks he should have compared the Bokers to 111mm Vics instead of 91mm?

[powernoodle]

For better or worse, it did actually make me want to pick up a Boker Tech tool

Me too.  I'll order the blade-only version when Mrs. Powernoodle isn't looking.  I like the overall look of the MT, and the deep clip.  $28 shipped on Amazon - and less on eBay - is not terrible.  But you can also get a Victorinox Climber for that kind of money, with a lot more utility.

[Steinar]

Yes, blame capitalism.... I assume the alternative is much better.

There are middle grounds between laissez-faire capitalism and fully government controlled communism. Just mentioning. 

A company which is publicly traded in the US has a legal obligation to “create shareholder value” as its first priority. Victorinox, on the other hand, has the Victorinox Foundation as a majority shareholder, and the foundation has goals like creating employment in Ibach, as well as Victorinox being regulated by Swiss law.

As Adam Smith himself pointed out, capitalism will only function well with the correct mix of checks and balances.

As an aside to the above on US companies, I use to say, Americans are really good at everything except moderation.

Sorry for going on a semi-political rant.

[Steinar]

Am I the only one who thinks he should have compared the Bokers to 111mm Vics instead of 91mm?

Interesting perspective. I see your point, but I'm really not sure.

Another thought on “made in (somewhere the main office is not)”; it has to do with whether a company is a production company or a design company too. When production is outsourced, the company becomes less of a production company, and responsibility is diluted. I think many people here, myself included, has a certain attachment to companies being production companies, and not just abstract “brands” getting stuff made wherever it's cheaper this quarter. It has to do with pride in a craft, I think.

Disclaimer: I have a Böker or two made in Taiwan (from the plus line), and they are fine knives, I think.

[anditsgone]

'know what else? To me, it's doesn't even matter what nationality we're speaking about. If it was a (original) Chinese design, I'd be find with it being made in China.

</rant>

Yep, i dont want a german made samurai 
It has to be hand forged by a 120 year old chinese man high up in the mountains in his century's old workshop.

Sorry for letting my imagination on the loose

And back to topic:

I think that all the companies that try to copy an Swiss army knife fail. Look at gerber with their bear grylls style pocket knife.

Companies just can't compete with the quality that victorinox can offer for such a low price. That is probably because they have had this production line for a couple of decades and can manufacture almost all their models on the same line without major modifications.

When you would calculate the total cost of their production plant and divide that through all the millions of knives they have produced it would only be a couple centas on every knife.

Even chinese factorys cant compete to the Swiss business model    

[rdub934]

I'm not a diehard Vic-guy (yet, my day is coming quickly) and I've never seen one of these Bokers yet, but they look like a logical evolution of the traditional SAK. The pocket-clip and G10 scales are no brainers. I am sort of thinking shame on Vic for not developing their product into this year's ago.

Although, they will be fine regardless - they're Victorinox after all.

[sLaughterMed]

I'm not a diehard Vic-guy (yet, my day is coming quickly) and I've never seen one of these Bokers yet, but they look like a logical evolution of the traditional SAK. The pocket-clip and G10 scales are no brainers. I am sort of thinking shame on Vic for not developing their product into this year's ago.

Although, they will be fine regardless - they're Victorinox after all.

Agreed on all counts. I hope Victorinox provides a response to the Boker line, even if they don't go for the G-10 scales. a cellidor 91mm with a good liner lock and a pocket clip sounds great...

[WoodsDuck]

I hope nothing changes at all.

[Sea Monster]

I hope Victorinox provides a response to the Boker line, even if they don't go for the G-10 scales. a cellidor 91mm with a good liner lock and a pocket clip sounds great...

Using staff room wild math here - I would say 1/10, perhaps 1/100 or 1/1000 SAK purchasers know or care what G-10 is.
In many markets, not having a lock is a selling point in favour of SAKs,

and if they changed the classic look of the SAK with a pocket clip (handy as they are) I'd say half your mall type shoppers would assume they are fakes, because they've never seen them with them before.


Would I like these options? sure (maybe not the lock), but enthusiasts are weird.
I think SAK has a strong market and a strong reputation, and while I enjoy their forays out of their niche, they sell hundreds of Tinkers, Climbers and Spartans every day, and (presumably) that is what keeps them going.

[anditsgone]

I hope Victorinox provides a response to the Boker line, even if they don't go for the G-10 scales. a cellidor 91mm with a good liner lock and a pocket clip sounds great...

Using staff room wild math here - I would say 1/10, perhaps 1/100 or 1/1000 SAK purchasers know or care what G-10 is.
In many markets, not having a lock is a selling point in favour of SAKs,

and if they changed the classic look of the SAK with a pocket clip (handy as they are) I'd say half your mall type shoppers would assume they are fakes, because they've never seen them with them before.


Would I like these options? sure (maybe not the lock), but enthusiasts are weird.
I think SAK has a strong market and a strong reputation, and while I enjoy their forays out of their niche, they sell hundreds of Tinkers, Climbers and Spartans every day, and (presumably) that is what keeps them going.

I agree on that, because there product is so well know they're kind of stuck with it.
They do offer the evogrip series but those do not seem to catch on with the public.

[rdub934]

Vic definitely don't need to replace the classic SAK line. But offer an alternate line of these updated "Boker-beaterz" for the tacti-cool/mall-ninja crowd.

Quick! How do I get elected king of Switzerland?