What is your Lawful Excuse?

[Gohard]

"It's ok officer, I'm a mod on a multitool forum. Why are you cuffing me?"

Hahaha. That will work. I hope!

[eamo]

"It's ok officer, I'm a mod on a multitool forum. Why are you cuffing me?"

ooooooooooohh Mags is a mod now 





 

[magentus]

"It's ok officer, I'm a mod on a multitool forum. Why are you cuffing me?"

ooooooooooohh Mags is a mod now 





 

EAMO's back! Please see me in my office.

[eamo]

"It's ok officer, I'm a mod on a multitool forum. Why are you cuffing me?"

ooooooooooohh Mags is a mod now 





 

EAMO's back! Please see me in my office.

Eamo was never away, just lurking and lieing low . . . . . shouldn't you be on the lash horsing back pints at the get together at this stage of the night ?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Too much lurking, not enough posting!   

Been too long since we saw that beautiful pup avatar!

Def

[Sea Monster]

The funny thing about Australia is that you can buy any kind of knife everywhere. But you can't carry one?

Noooope.

Some states you can't buy certain blades without a collectors permit (because the only possible legal reason to own a bayonet or sword is for display) (Looking at you Victoria, you police state over regulated pricks)

Some states have to enter your name, age, and address into SkyNet whenever they sell any type of knife - SAK, whatever (Looking at you South Australia. How about you worry about having ANY type of safety inspection on those death traps you call cars)

Some states you can buy just about anything, but not actually carry it or use it for anything (That's you NSW, it's okay, I know you'll bring in the Victorian permits soon. Gotta fill those coffers somehow)

Territories you can buy machetes, naked, with a beer in your hand (Looking at you NT, you blessed bunch of drunk smurfs)

And some states are just godforsaken hell holes, that no one cares about, and who's laws don't interest me at all (That's you Queensland, feel free to sink into the ocean)


Oh, and Federally? Don't try to import anything without a small forest worth of forms and applications. Those Border Patrol (whatever they are called now, the title changes) smurfers are on it like white on rice.



(I have not mentioned Tasmania, as I'm not familiar with New Zealand laws, and Western Australia to the best of my knowledge is just something we tell children about so they think there's something other than Mordor across the desert)

[Gohard]

The funny thing about Australia is that you can buy any kind of knife everywhere. But you can't carry one?

Noooope.

Some states you can't buy certain blades without a collectors permit (because the only possible legal reason to own a bayonet or sword is for display) (Looking at you Victoria, you police state over regulated pricks)

Some states have to enter your name, age, and address into SkyNet whenever they sell any type of knife - SAK, whatever (Looking at you South Australia. How about you worry about having ANY type of safety inspection on those death traps you call cars)

Some states you can buy just about anything, but not actually carry it or use it for anything (That's you NSW, it's okay, I know you'll bring in the Victorian permits soon. Gotta fill those coffers somehow)

Territories you can buy machetes, naked, with a beer in your hand (Looking at you NT, you blessed bunch of drunk smurfs)

And some states are just godforsaken hell holes, that no one cares about, and who's laws don't interest me at all (That's you Queensland, feel free to sink into the ocean)


Oh, and Federally? Don't try to import anything without a small forest worth of forms and applications. Those Border Patrol (whatever they are called now, the title changes) smurfers are on it like white on rice.



(I have not mentioned Tasmania, as I'm not familiar with New Zealand laws, and Western Australia to the best of my knowledge is just something we tell children about so they think there's something other than Mordor across the desert)

So true. But over in WA you can get any kind of knife. Even bayonets  on gumtree. Seen one this morning when I bought a surge. The bloke had one for sale. Wheterits legal or illegal to have one. Its still available.

[pietervn]

The funny thing about Australia is that you can buy any kind of knife everywhere. But you can't carry one?

Noooope.

Some states you can't buy certain blades without a collectors permit (because the only possible legal reason to own a bayonet or sword is for display) (Looking at you Victoria, you police state over regulated pricks)

Some states have to enter your name, age, and address into SkyNet whenever they sell any type of knife - SAK, whatever (Looking at you South Australia. How about you worry about having ANY type of safety inspection on those death traps you call cars)

Some states you can buy just about anything, but not actually carry it or use it for anything (That's you NSW, it's okay, I know you'll bring in the Victorian permits soon. Gotta fill those coffers somehow)

Territories you can buy machetes, naked, with a beer in your hand (Looking at you NT, you blessed bunch of drunk smurfs)

And some states are just godforsaken hell holes, that no one cares about, and who's laws don't interest me at all (That's you Queensland, feel free to sink into the ocean)

Oh, and Federally? Don't try to import anything without a small forest worth of forms and applications. Those Border Patrol (whatever they are called now, the title changes) smurfers are on it like white on rice.

(I have not mentioned Tasmania, as I'm not familiar with New Zealand laws, and Western Australia to the best of my knowledge is just something we tell children about so they think there's something other than Mordor across the desert)

I enjoyed this very much.

I would have been in deep trouble if the cops searched our motorbikes on a recent three week trip to Alice Springs. We were in four states during the trip, each with the different laws as you said. Four Multi's and two SAK's for two blokes, we travelled light 

I second the Biltong idea!!!

Cheers,

Pete

[Gohard]

And did you had to use the MT to fix the BM trouble U?
Need a sharp knife to cut "jerky"

[pietervn]

And did you had to use the MT to fix the BM trouble U?
Need a sharp knife to cut "jerky"

  Nope the bike went VERY well, no troubles at all in the 7,000kms trip. We took 1,5kg biltong sticks (jerky) with us, easier to break them than cut them. I'm sure we could have made plenty excuses to justify the tools. Food was just one of the easier ones.

Pete

[Grant Lamontagne]

I wonder if the phrase "I'm not a criminal" would be lawful justification for carrying a knife?

If you had deep enough pockets I'd kind of like to see the lawyers duke that one out as the prosecution tries to point out that carrying the knife (supposedly) makes you a criminal, rendering the statement invalid, and the defence attorney argues that as you are not a criminal then the statement is valid, rendering you innocent.

Maybe Tom Cruise could play you in the movie?

Def

[eamo]

I wonder if the phrase "I'm not a criminal" would be lawful justification for carrying a knife?

If you had deep enough pockets I'd kind of like to see the lawyers duke that one out as the prosecution tries to point out that carrying the knife (supposedly) makes you a criminal, rendering the statement invalid, and the defence attorney argues that as you are not a criminal then the statement is valid, rendering you innocent.

Maybe Tom Cruise could play you in the movie?

Def

that is an interesting concept.

with the amount of laws most countries now have I would imagine it is difficult for even the most law abiding citizen to be on the "right side" all the time. Add to that there are plenty of laws people aren't aware of, that becomes even more difficult.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Sadly in most places ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, which makes no sense really, as, at least in Canada, a law is only broken when someone intends to break it- ie men's rhea.

Yet you can still be charged and convicted.

Def

[eamo]

Sadly in most places ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, which makes no sense really, as, at least in Canada, a law is only broken when someone intends to break it- ie men's rhea.

Yet you can still be charged and convicted.

Def

well, i suppose my point is, with the amount of laws there are, it is difficult to be totally law abiding. It is also difficult for a lay person to have knowledge of all laws.

what also pisses me off are those who say "Its the law" as though all laws should be blindly followed, purely because "it's the law" . . .

maybe i should go back to lurking ?? 

[Grant Lamontagne]

If you did, you would be missed. 

I'm in complete agreement with you BTW.

Def

[Steinar]

And did you had to use the MT to fix the BM trouble U?
Need a sharp knife to cut "jerky"

  Nope the bike went VERY well, no troubles at all in the 7,000kms trip. We took 1,5kg biltong sticks (jerky) with us, easier to break them than cut them. I'm sure we could have made plenty excuses to justify the tools. Food was just one of the easier ones.

Pete

Just the idea that you should need to justify hauling tools and knives on 7 000 km trip shows the world is utterly bonkers. 

[eamo]

If you did, you would be missed. 

I'm in complete agreement with you BTW.

Def

most of the time i come out of lurking mode to either slag Mags or get slagged by Kirky

see,



and he's likely at the UK meetup too so easy target (for now . . . . . . . )

[dks]

The problem with ignorance of the law being accepted as an excuse is that once this becomes legal precedence any criminal can claim it. You do have situations where it is accepted as a reason for a lesser sentence, as happened with a rape case in the UK, or Germany I think, where the perpetrator (who claimed that he was not aware of the western stance on rape) was released from prison quickly, doing the same crime again.

In cases where a legally binding decision is taken, that affects you personally, (or a small group) not the whole country, you may be given more time to comply, if you can prove that you were not made aware of it (e.g., you were abroad for a year).

Powernoodle can chip in, with regards to the US legal system.

[eamo]

The problem with ignorance of the law being accepted as an excuse is that once this becomes legal precedence any criminal can claim it. You do have situations where it is accepted as a reason for a lesser sentence, as happened with a rape case in the UK, or Germany I think, where the perpetrator (who claimed that he was not aware of the western stance on rape) was released from prison quickly, doing the same crime again.

In cases where a legally binding decision is taken, that affects you personally, (or a small group) not the whole country, you may be given more time to comply, if you can prove that you were not made aware of it (e.g., you were abroad for a year).

Powernoodle can chip in, with regards to the US legal system.

I'm not advocating ignorance of the law as an excuse my point is that there are now so many laws that one can easily fall foul of them unwittingly. And in the case of knife carry laws this can have unpleasant consequences for otherwise good people. Regarding crime/harm to others surely everyone knows right from wrong ?

Take where you advised me on dive knives - they are most likely illegal to have on your person/car where i live (i don't actually know), but when my daughter needs to have one i'll provide it. Basically, taking my chances. If push came to shove I could well find myself explaining myself to a judge.

[dks]

many lawmakers are not aware of the laws....  if you see the way laws go through, how much time is given to study them, whether they do study them, whether they see if one law has requirements that oppose other laws, whether a law is needed or is just a knee-jerk reaction to some specific incident, or just produced to keep a small but loud group happy and so on....  They may vote in a law and then complain about it the next day.

In the Sea, the law of the sea applies Arrrrrrr

[Sea Monster]

what also pisses me off are those who say "Its the law" as though all laws should be blindly followed, purely because "it's the law"

Socrates (and his contemporaries) had some views on this sort of thing.
No much has changed in the last few thousand years.

surely everyone knows right from wrong ?

From their perspective....yes.
But perspectives can vary wildly.

("surely" is how many bad laws begin. A bunch of similarly minded folk sit in a room and make a decision based on what is "obvious" to them on behalf of millions of other people.)

whether a law is needed or is just a knee-jerk reaction to some specific incident,

Heh heh heh heh heh.

I'm sure no rational, objective, body of lawmakers have ever created massive legal precedence by passing decrees, even temporarily, that have changed the face of a society for generations to come as a "knee jerk reaction" to some incident.

In the Sea, the law of the sea applies Arrrrrrr

in the sea, the law of Whoever Can Hold Their Breath The Longest applies.

on the sea, the law of the sea applies, and it's more complicated than you'd think.

[eamo]

In the Sea, the law of the sea applies Arrrrrrr

yeah, but i got a 12 mile drive to get her ladyship to the dive centre . . . . don't think the law of the sea applies . . . or does it ?? 



where i live, it's pretty irrelevant, chances of any issues having a knife are slim, unless one starts doing stupid things and then, well, lots of laws come into effect then.

[eamo]

surely everyone knows right from wrong ?

From their perspective....yes.
But perspectives can vary wildly.

("surely" is how many bad laws begin. A bunch of similarly minded folk sit in a room and make a decision based on what is "obvious" to them on behalf of millions of other people.)


very fair point. but i think basic right/wrong are universal ? (i deliberately left out the "surely")

In the Sea, the law of the sea applies Arrrrrrr

in the sea, the law of Whoever Can Hold Their Breath The Longest applies.

on the sea, the law of the sea applies, and it's more complicated than you'd think.

you're a seamonster - i defer to your expertise on this particular matter.

[dks]

I am aware of sea legislation, national, EU and international, so it is as complicated as I think it is.
Why do people assume that a statement made with a pirate sound in it is serious ?

Some will be surprised by the knowledge of various members on some/many/various subjects. This is not an interview, it is a forum.

[Gohard]

Where i live, it's pretty irrelevant, chances of any issues having a knife are slim, unless one starts doing stupid things and then, well, lots of laws come into effect then.

In my opinion......

I think this pretty much sums up the whole thread!!
Well said

[Syncop8r]

(I have not mentioned Tasmania, as I'm not familiar with New Zealand laws...)

Yussss, it is ours now!

[cody6268]

Sorry about that earlier post, that was my 11:30PM brain talking.

Here, the provisions in the Constitution against unreasonable search and seizure would have prohibited anything close to the Crime Prevention Act of 1938, and especially this add-on to it prohibiting carry of knives without a reason. 

My reason would be farm use, since I pick my SAKS and multitools around what I need here on the farm.  I use a knife to cut twine, rope, feed sacks, you name it. Last winter, I was using the hook to carry bales, and the blade to cut the twine on my SAKs daily.  Multitools are made to help me from having to get another tool while doing maintenance in the farm shop, tinkering, and often field repairs.  In fact, the first multitool I ever owned (Apex Hunting Tool made in Ireland by Imperial/Schrade in the '90s) was kept in the tractor before I got it for that very reason, backing up a good set of tools in the toolbox. 

When I was at Walmart buying a Camillus Carnivore X machete.  I made the mistake of going to the self checkout.  The lady Walmart employee who was manning the self checkouts asks me (in Walmart, you have to present ID to buy an edged tool), "What will you do with that big old long knife?"  I explain, "farm use", that didn't sink in, so I said "cutting brush".  Everyone I've told this to, including some state employees have said what she asked was very inappropriate, and said what I felt like saying then "None of your business" was appropriate in that instance.  Nothing in Va's. knife laws says nothing against machetes.  Since then, I've avoided buying any knife at Walmart due to their employees.

[cody6268]

TazzieRob I've been thinking about your request for a lawful excuse  to carry & I can't think of a one.
The intent of the change is to not give you a lawful excuse. I find it interesting the term "dangerous article" is used.

Seamonster summed up the intent of the change.
Just pay your taxes and don't carry a dangerous article (multitool) like you're damn well told Citizen.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
3: the lawful collection, display or exhibition of that dangerous article;
4: the use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended; and
Religious observance.
5: Self-defence is not a lawful excuse that justifies the possession or carriage of a knife, or other dangerous article, in a public place.

I read the following link and found a statement that sums it up..
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/services-online/knife-laws-education/

“However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

Question: Can the police take my knife?
Answer: If a police officer reasonably believes a person unlawfully has possession of a knife in a public place, the police officer can stop and detain the person, search them, and confiscate any knife found. However, if a police officer found a knife in these circumstances, and the person who had it was able to demonstrate a lawful excuse, the knife would be returned and they would not be prosecuted.

If someone sees you cutting an apple with your dangerous Vic Classic you are potentially in trouble.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
“The use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended;”

Refer to rule one & two: and this statement “However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

With out naming any political parties, things in stages. First they will test the water in one state, if it works they will expanded the change elsewhere.

Next you'll be asked to turn in your dangerous article, then they will ban the sale and take your dangerous article.

If there are any grass root efforts to fight these rules I suggest you join and support.

That "surrender your knife, save your life" has got to be one of the most absurd political activist groups around.    I think the same thing that's used to counter gun control measures here can be said in this situation. Criminals aren't going to give up their knives, but forcing law abiding citizens to give theirs up is ridiculous.

[Sea Monster]

I am aware of sea legislation, national, EU and international, so it is as complicated as I think it is.
Why do people assume that a statement made with a pirate sound in it is serious ?

Some will be surprised by the knowledge of various members on some/many/various subjects. This is not an interview, it is a forum.

Heh, why do people assume any statement I make at all is serious?

Also, since I'm having a little train of thought here- Yes, it's a forum, open to all the denizens of the internet - making our posts (and facebook updates, or whatever is being published) performance art for the ages, not private conversations between two people.

People are watching, and we are here to entertain 

Now relax, and have some nice room temperature soft water, it's the best thing for you 

very fair point. but i think basic right/wrong are universal ? (i deliberately left out the "surely")

Are they? In my culture, we don't have marriage and everyone is allowed to seek pleasure and company however they see fit,
and there is no personal ownership of land (or tools) - You use what you need and it all remains part of the collective.

It's not "wrong" by any stretch of the imagination to me, but I'm sure there are organisations or groups of people out there who see it differently.

Some of my friends (not my culture per se, but people I respect as people) have no concern for animal welfare and consider dogs, cats, goats etc, to be at the mercy of man's interest and not entitled to any particular care.

I'm not trying to open this discussion into the finer points of ethical behaviour and the like - just saying that "morals" can be quite varied.

[dks]

I am old enough to drink alcohol too