What is your Lawful Excuse?

[WoodsDuck]

These absurd knife laws always make me cringe.

In Indiana autos are legal, and there's no law regarding blade length or carry type. I'd technically be within the bounds of the law if I carried two machetes strapped across my back. Of course that would be as good for the cause as those guys who walk around with an assault rifle to scare people and argue with the police about their rights.

The one bladed item that's specifically banned here is throwing stars... Which is pretty silly, even though I know why they're banned.

[Grant Lamontagne]

TazzieRob I've been thinking about your request for a lawful excuse  to carry & I can't think of a one.
The intent of the change is to not give you a lawful excuse. I find it interesting the term "dangerous article" is used.

Seamonster summed up the intent of the change.
Just pay your taxes and don't carry a dangerous article (multitool) like you're damn well told Citizen.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
3: the lawful collection, display or exhibition of that dangerous article;
4: the use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended; and
Religious observance.
5: Self-defence is not a lawful excuse that justifies the possession or carriage of a knife, or other dangerous article, in a public place.

I read the following link and found a statement that sums it up..
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/services-online/knife-laws-education/

“However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

Question: Can the police take my knife?
Answer: If a police officer reasonably believes a person unlawfully has possession of a knife in a public place, the police officer can stop and detain the person, search them, and confiscate any knife found. However, if a police officer found a knife in these circumstances, and the person who had it was able to demonstrate a lawful excuse, the knife would be returned and they would not be prosecuted.

If someone sees you cutting an apple with your dangerous Vic Classic you are potentially in trouble.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
“The use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended;”

Refer to rule one & two: and this statement “However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

With out naming any political parties, things in stages. First they will test the water in one state, if it works they will expanded the change elsewhere.

Next you'll be asked to turn in your dangerous article, then they will ban the sale and take your dangerous article.

If there are any grass root efforts to fight these rules I suggest you join and support.

At the risk of skirting a political discussion, I am in agreement with all of the above.

I will leave it at that.  I have a lot more but I'm going to keep it reigned in.

Def

[ducttapetech]

TazzieRob I've been thinking about your request for a lawful excuse  to carry & I can't think of a one.
The intent of the change is to not give you a lawful excuse. I find it interesting the term "dangerous article" is used.

Seamonster summed up the intent of the change.
Just pay your taxes and don't carry a dangerous article (multitool) like you're damn well told Citizen.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
3: the lawful collection, display or exhibition of that dangerous article;
4: the use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended; and
Religious observance.
5: Self-defence is not a lawful excuse that justifies the possession or carriage of a knife, or other dangerous article, in a public place.

I read the following link and found a statement that sums it up..
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/services-online/knife-laws-education/

“However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

Question: Can the police take my knife?
Answer: If a police officer reasonably believes a person unlawfully has possession of a knife in a public place, the police officer can stop and detain the person, search them, and confiscate any knife found. However, if a police officer found a knife in these circumstances, and the person who had it was able to demonstrate a lawful excuse, the knife would be returned and they would not be prosecuted.

If someone sees you cutting an apple with your dangerous Vic Classic you are potentially in trouble.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
“The use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended;”

Refer to rule one & two: and this statement “However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

With out naming any political parties, things in stages. First they will test the water in one state, if it works they will expanded the change elsewhere.

Next you'll be asked to turn in your dangerous article, then they will ban the sale and take your dangerous article.

If there are any grass root efforts to fight these rules I suggest you join and support.

At the risk of skirting a political discussion, I am in agreement with all of the above.

I will leave it at that.  I have a lot more but I'm going to keep it reigned in.

Def

I totally agree. The only reason I have left this thread alone for so long is because I would get to political and it would not help loop the OP.

Nate

[Toolslinger]

TazzieRob I've been thinking about your request for a lawful excuse  to carry & I can't think of a one.
The intent of the change is to not give you a lawful excuse. I find it interesting the term "dangerous article" is used.

Seamonster summed up the intent of the change.
Just pay your taxes and don't carry a dangerous article (multitool) like you're damn well told Citizen.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
3: the lawful collection, display or exhibition of that dangerous article;
4: the use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended; and
Religious observance.
5: Self-defence is not a lawful excuse that justifies the possession or carriage of a knife, or other dangerous article, in a public place.

I read the following link and found a statement that sums it up..
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/services-online/knife-laws-education/

“However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

Question: Can the police take my knife?
Answer: If a police officer reasonably believes a person unlawfully has possession of a knife in a public place, the police officer can stop and detain the person, search them, and confiscate any knife found. However, if a police officer found a knife in these circumstances, and the person who had it was able to demonstrate a lawful excuse, the knife would be returned and they would not be prosecuted.

If someone sees you cutting an apple with your dangerous Vic Classic you are potentially in trouble.

1: the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article;
2: the participation in a lawful sport, recreation or entertainment using that dangerous article;
“The use of that dangerous article for the lawful purpose for which it was intended;”

Refer to rule one & two: and this statement “However people who regularly carry a knife, including a pocket knife or multi-tool, can no longer do so in a public place, unless pursuing a specific lawful activity for which the knife is required.”

With out naming any political parties, things in stages. First they will test the water in one state, if it works they will expanded the change elsewhere.

Next you'll be asked to turn in your dangerous article, then they will ban the sale and take your dangerous article.

If there are any grass root efforts to fight these rules I suggest you join and support.

At the risk of skirting a political discussion, I am in agreement with all of the above.

I will leave it at that.  I have a lot more but I'm going to keep it reigned in.

Def

I totally agree. The only reason I have left this thread alone for so long is because I would get to political and it would not help loop the OP.

Nate

I also am in agreement with Dean51, Grant and ducttapetech. I will also not be adding more to prevent it getting political.

[Dean51]

I read the OP's post and was going to stay out of the thread. I read the link he posted and it sounded like something I had read about before. Then he said he was “quite seriously asking for people's constructive ideas on what a lawful excuse could be”.

I had to edit and delete myself several times because there was a lot I wanted to say.

In the end the only advise I could give the OP is support those who oppose the change.

So I apologize to anyone who may think I went to far and said to much.

[ironraven]

I think these kinds of laws are fishing licenses. Need to make the boss happy, look for knives. My excuse would be "lunch", screw a folder I'd just get a 4" Mora and toss it in my pack, along with an altoids tin full of salt and pepper packs, ketchup packages. I already have paper towels in there.

I don't like going placed my sidearm isn't welcome, it says something about how much I'm trusted; I almost go go someplace I'm not trusted with a pocket knife. That says right there that whomever is runnign the show doesn't think I'm an adult. And no, I do. not. fly.

Good luck to everyone in Tasmania, you're going to need it.

+1!!!!  In Texas, 5.5 inch is legal and switchblades are now ok. Balisongs still on the ban list. Another big +1 on the not being as ass with it.

Anything under six feet is OK to conceal in Vermont. Yes, you read that right. But I can't carry a slungshot or knucks. Darn- my manriki-gusari is apparently ok though. We kinda invented constitutional carry so I guess that makes up for it.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Dean, you didn't go too far.

I have also had to delete and revise a few posts too.  I'm not a conservative or a liberal, I'm an anarchist and all I really want from a government is to just leave us the hell alone unless there is some legitimate reason to get involved- ie someone is actually threatening or harming someone else.

Laws like this are idiotic at best, and insulting at worst, and often make me wonder why the hell I bother being a law abiding citizen when it seems like I'm going to be treated like a criminal for doing so, while the actual criminals are unaffected because they didn't give a rat's ass about the laws in the first place.

I agree with you.  The best way to fight this is to find your local version of AKTI or Kniferights.org and support them.  And if there isn't one, maybe it might be an idea to start one- I'm sure AKTI and Kniferights would be happy to give you some pointers in getting off the ground.

Def

[Gohard]

What can I say???  Everything has been said. But there's a lot I can think of not to say.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Sorry for my rant above.  Things like this make me remarkably angry.

Def

[Gohard]

Thats how we feel over here and not much we can do about it. But thats the law and if you don't act like a smurf head, they WILL leave you alone.

[WoodsDuck]

Sorry for my rant above.  Things like this make me remarkably angry.

Def

No worries. Seems like you're probably in good company here. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I would think that, if in was ever stopped and had my multitool or SAK confiscated I would demand to see case Files on every cork screw and plier related assault that made that law necessary.

Def

[TazzieRob]

Well, the best way to construct a story is to include some truth. Ok, so I don't need a knife every single minute of every day, but I use one every day.

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and I use a knife/multitool every day for my job. I'm also technically on call, so even though I'm in my civies I "could" get a call to come to work. So I just need to say I'm on call and may need to go in. This gets a bit sketchy if I've had a beer maybe, but 90% of the time it should fly

This wasn't intended to get people worked up. I don't like the law change, however I don't believe it will affect me in any way to how I have conducted myself in the past. The number of times I have seen police at public venues is pretty low, higher at football matches and big events such as festivals, where there are plenty of other people doing plenty of things differently to me that are far more likely to bring attention. Once they start putting metal detectors in like the museums in the USA I'll get worried

[Sea Monster]

Good luck to everyone in Tasmania, you're going to need it.

What, both of them? 


Heh, if I start a "knife rights" group, I'll probably get labeled as an Outlaw Motorcycle club and have my house raided.

I'll just keep moving further and further away from cities.


Someone mentioned something about not going where they can't carry?

I went into a store the other day with my laptop bag over my shoulder, and the nice man asked me to leave it at the desk.
I told the nice man I'm as inclined to leave my laptop with a stranger as he is to let me visit his wife, and took my business elsewhere.


It's not "dangerous article" related per se, but the more places treat me like a villain, the less likely I am to feel bad about climbing a clocktower. (Come on ASIO, come and get me, you spook smurfs)

[shark_za]

One word answer = Biltong

Our new "Dangerous weapons act" came into effect in South Africa and basically means a knife is a tool and can be carried and used as a tool until it is used in a manner than makes it a weapon.
Officers must take all factors into account as to whether the knife is a weapon or not, location, time of day, posture and actions of the carrier, etc. Possession itself is not a crime; using one as a dangerous weapon may be.
You could even use one as a weapon (nearest thing being pressed into use) and still have no problem as the use of necessity to preserve life can override the weapon law.

So basically a fair law with a lot of ambiguity and opportunities to be abused by naive police officers
Keeping a copy of the act along with knowing the wording in case you get issues is advised.

My answer is simple, this is for biltong and this legally carried Glock is my weapon.

[strmliner]

Well, the best way to construct a story is to include some truth. Ok, so I don't need a knife every single minute of every day, but I use one every day.

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and I use a knife/multitool every day for my job. I'm also technically on call, so even though I'm in my civies I "could" get a call to come to work. So I just need to say I'm on call and may need to go in. This gets a bit sketchy if I've had a beer maybe, but 90% of the time it should fly

This wasn't intended to get people worked up. I don't like the law change, however I don't believe it will affect me in any way to how I have conducted myself in the past. The number of times I have seen police at public venues is pretty low, higher at football matches and big events such as festivals, where there are plenty of other people doing plenty of things differently to me that are far more likely to bring attention. Once they start putting metal detectors in like the museums in the USA I'll get worried

Well, I haven't seen metal detectors in the museums yet, but I run into them at airports, county courthouses, and MLB/NFL/NBA stadiums.  It's the reason I don't have an SAK on my keychain and I have to remember to leave my SAK at home or in the car when I do any of the above. 

I expect there will be more of this over the next 10 years...I don't expect it to get easier...   

[Etherealicer]

I understand banning locking blades, oho blades and long blades. But banning just every blade is ridiculous.

Some ideas:
- Get/make yourself a bladeless MT and carry a small non-threatening blade separately. Simply, so the expensive MT does not get confiscated.
- Good places to carry a knife would be a rescue knife in a FAK, however, that makes it difficult to access.
- Carry a well worn knife (kinda proofing that you use it regularly)

[TazzieRob]

Well, the best way to construct a story is to include some truth. Ok, so I don't need a knife every single minute of every day, but I use one every day.

I'm an Electrical Engineer, and I use a knife/multitool every day for my job. I'm also technically on call, so even though I'm in my civies I "could" get a call to come to work. So I just need to say I'm on call and may need to go in. This gets a bit sketchy if I've had a beer maybe, but 90% of the time it should fly

This wasn't intended to get people worked up. I don't like the law change, however I don't believe it will affect me in any way to how I have conducted myself in the past. The number of times I have seen police at public venues is pretty low, higher at football matches and big events such as festivals, where there are plenty of other people doing plenty of things differently to me that are far more likely to bring attention. Once they start putting metal detectors in like the museums in the USA I'll get worried

Well, I haven't seen metal detectors in the museums yet, but I run into them at airports, county courthouses, and MLB/NFL/NBA stadiums.  It's the reason I don't have an SAK on my keychain and I have to remember to leave my SAK at home or in the car when I do any of the above. 

I expect there will be more of this over the next 10 years...I don't expect it to get easier...   

I have been to the excellent museums in Washington DC, all with Security guards and X-Ray machines. Don't even dream of taking food in with you  they want to be able to fleece you extra money in their own cafeterias 

[TazzieRob]

Good luck to everyone in Tasmania, you're going to need it.

What, both of them? 

It's pretty lonely down here 

 

[Grant Lamontagne]

It seems like your job and on call nature are excellent (and legitimate) reasons for carrying a multitool.  If I visit Tasmania can I claim to be your apprentice if I get caught with a SAK? 

Def

[Australia]

Yes the possession law is in all states of Australia I believe , once your outside your home it applies.

Unless you have a proper reason , and one of them is listed on each states police website ,

Yes It sucks .

99 % of knife crimes here in OZ are with kitchen knives !



 

[dks]

What would Mick Dundee say ...   

wait, actually he DOES have good reason to carry his knife 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yes the possession law is in all states of Australia I believe , once your outside your home it applies.

Unless you have a proper reason , and one of them is listed on each states police website ,

Yes It sucks .

99 % of knife crimes here in OZ are with kitchen knives !



 

I would wager that it is a similar statistic everywhere.

Def

[Sea Monster]

Yes the possession law is in all states of Australia I believe , once your outside your home it applies.

Fortunately, once you get away from the Big Smoke, this sort of thing becomes immaterial.

[Gohard]

Good way to avoid any attention is to carry bit kit's and bit extension if you carry Leatherman. If they see screwdriver bit's, the attention moves away from the tool.

Can do so with the other multitools as well.

[Aloha]

99 % of knife crimes here in OZ are with kitchen knives !



 

Factoring out crimes of passion that most likely happen within the home, I'd imagine those 99% of knife crimes involve criminals ( prior to crime ). 

Good way to avoid any attention is to carry bit kit's and bit extension if you carry Leatherman. If they see screwdriver bit's, the attention moves away from the tool.

Can do so with the other multitools as well.

Good idea 

[captain spaulding]

I understand banning locking blades, oho blades and long blades. But banning just every blade is ridiculous.

I don't understand that at all. That's most likely how they got into the predicament in the first place. They ban one thing and the criminals go to the next best option. Then they ban that, and so on and so on. It never ends and only negatively affects the law abiding citizens while positively affecting the criminals. Makes no sense at all.

I respect your opinion and know you disagree, but from where i'm sitting it seems pretty dang clear their "'efforts" do not work.

[Steinar]

• Activism (the Hippie strategy)
  
  • Will take over your life
  • Extremely uncertain chances of success
• Lobbyism (the Corporate strategy)
  
  • Effective
  • Requires deeper pockets than most single individuals have
• Moving further away towards the Rim (the Firefly strategy)
  
  • Preserves leading your own life, at least for a while, but perhaps long enough
  • Is enabling for those changes society away from what you think is right

From where I stand none of these look very good at all...

The problem is changing an existing law is very much harder than hindering them from being voted into existence in the first place. This is one of the reasons a grass root campaign must be enormous and well organized to approach even a fraction of the effectiveness of a smallish, professional lobbying effort. Another problems is bureaucrats and politicians build their careers on creating and expanding laws and regulations, not removing and simplifying.

What I'm trying to say is probably my opinion that if you don't have a knife right's organization already, this will only get worse if you don't create one.

Whatever... Let's avoid making this into another locked down politics thread, people. 

[Gohard]

The funny thing about Australia is that you can buy any kind of knife everywhere. But you can't carry one?

[magentus]

"It's ok officer, I'm a mod on a multitool forum. Why are you cuffing me?"