What is your Lawful Excuse?

[Sea Monster]

I am old enough to drink alcohol too

Most people are.

Call it cultural differences. I wasn't calling you an infant, but the only alcohol I have is in the garage, so I'm not in the habit of toasting with it.

Technically drinkable, in that it's in liquid form, but I wouldn't recommend it.


(If you like, call it a slightly subversive point about what is "obviously right and wrong" )

 


Which makes me think a thought, almost related to the opening subject -

Lawful possession of alcohol?

Simultaneous possession of alcohol and a knife (or whatever variation of edged tools are covered by any given laws)?

A lot of areas around these parts it is illegal to have an "open" bottle of alcoholic beverage in many public spaces.

There are whole tracts of the outback where it is flat out illegal to have alcohol of any type at all - and they put additives in the fuel and solvents to dissuade consumption (there are uh, cultural reasons for that too)

I suspect similar logic goes into the laws
(I mean, there are probably less valid reasons to travel through any given part of a city with a half bottle of scotch than a multitool, but I object in principle to any laws that curtail people's freedom on a "just in case" basis)

[dks]

Religious reasons, I assume.

[eamo]

I'm not trying to open this discussion into the finer points of ethical behaviour and the like - just saying that "morals" can be quite varied.

agreed - perhaps the questions boils down to whether there is an innate sense of right vs wrong or are ALL morals learned and therefore dependent on culture / teaching ?

[Grant Lamontagne]

I think that while some things can be cultural (marriage, sex etc) the big ones are pretty much universal- nobody likes a liar, nobody likes someone who can't be trusted, no one should kill another, at least not without a damned good reason (like self defense) and so on. 

Marriage falls more into the category of a custom than right or wrong.

Def

[dks]

I think a woman's view on marriage may differ....

[Etherealicer]

In Switzerland we have several categories regulated in the Weapons law.
- Forbidden weapons
- Restricted weapons (you need a permit)
- Dangerous items (Everyday items that can be used as a weapon, like a baseball bat).

Dangerous items you are only allowed to carry when you have a need for them (similar to the law in Tasmania, except the police will not just confiscate the items). Anyway, if I walk around with scissors, an axe or a baseball bat, I need a proper reason. There is one exception to this rule: The SWISS ARMY KNIFE, I can always carry one without reason

So, I need to justify why I have a pair of scissors with me but can carry a 130mm Ranger

Anyway, at the end of almost every paragraph of the weapons law, it is written that the SAK is excluded from this rule

[SAK Guy]

In Switzerland we have several categories regulated in the Weapons law.
- Forbidden weapons
- Restricted weapons (you need a permit)
- Dangerous items (Everyday items that can be used as a weapon, like a baseball bat).

Dangerous items you are only allowed to carry when you have a need for them (similar to the law in Tasmania, except the police will not just confiscate the items). Anyway, if I walk around with scissors, an axe or a baseball bat, I need a proper reason. There is one exception to this rule: The SWISS ARMY KNIFE, I can always carry one without reason

So, I need to justify why I have a pair of scissors with me but can carry a 130mm Ranger

Anyway, at the end of almost every paragraph of the weapons law, it is written that the SAK is excluded from this rule

So awesome!!!!!!! 

[Toolslinger]

In Switzerland we have several categories regulated in the Weapons law.
- Forbidden weapons
- Restricted weapons (you need a permit)
- Dangerous items (Everyday items that can be used as a weapon, like a baseball bat).

Dangerous items you are only allowed to carry when you have a need for them (similar to the law in Tasmania, except the police will not just confiscate the items). Anyway, if I walk around with scissors, an axe or a baseball bat, I need a proper reason. There is one exception to this rule: The SWISS ARMY KNIFE, I can always carry one without reason

So, I need to justify why I have a pair of scissors with me but can carry a 130mm Ranger

Anyway, at the end of almost every paragraph of the weapons law, it is written that the SAK is excluded from this rule

So awesome!!!!!!! 

+1

[ironraven]

with the amount of laws most countries now have I would imagine it is difficult for even the most law abiding citizen to be on the "right side" all the time.

"Show me the man, and I'll find you the crime." Thats the usual translation of Beria's quote about justice in the old USSR. It's becoming a fact around the world.

The whole argument comes down to the immature and short sighted notion that if "bad people" can't have "weapons", then bad things won't happen. The forum rightfully filters out the only short reaction to that. It comes down to a definition of terms. Not examples, not quick fix little kiddie ideas, but meanings that are universal.

Weapon: The means by which you impose your will upon another.

Can anyone find a disagreement with this? If you have a jewish or catholic grandmother, you know that guilt is a weapon. So is shaming. Lies are a weapon, so are half truths- perception control is psychological warfare. Money has always been a weapon. "Weapon" isn't just a means of causing physical harm.

Why is understanding what a "weapon" is so important? It is a matter of sovereignty.

Sovereignty: supreme power or authority.

A free man, a truely free man, is ultimately sovereign to no one but himself. This kind of thing takes a freeman and brings him closer to slave or outlaw. Not in one jump, but one does not slice through a mountain as you do a cord- you cut it out chip by chip. And before long, no more mountain and everyone wonders "when did that happen?"



And I'm going to shut up now.

[Sea Monster]

I think a woman's view on marriage may differ....

Which woman?

The one in my house has views on marriage that I quite like.

what ironraven said

Heh.

Quite right, quite right. Oh and WHAT FUN we will have when "The Law" starts to include provisions for emotional and financial abuse (commonly found in, what's the word? Marriages?) (it has...something...for verbal abuse...but, heheh, they do it by banning "words" or whatever phrases are unpopular at the time. You can be a right smurf without slurs or invective.)

Why, with tone alone, I can ask an innocent question that could eat away at someone for hours, possibly days, perhaps it's the, heheh, straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak.

No knives drawn, no weapons cocked, not even a fist clenched.

heheh.

Oh what FUN.

[Huntsman]

Back to the lawful reason
I think biltong is a really good one – You need a really sharp knife to cut it and I suspect that you cannot even bite a piece off.
I also like Grant’s idea - “I am not a criminal!!”
What about grooming? Clearly this will work for the Vic Classic – But maybe also for an 85mm Wenger, but probably not for your big pliers based tool, with a big blade (and no file or scissors!!).
I guess the officer could then say 'Why not carry a separate nail file and scissors/why do you need a blade?' – and then we are into the crazy situation where it is legal to carry, say, a 6” pair of scissors – but not a 1” blade!!
What about opening packaging or letters?? I guess this is unlikely to be needed in a public place, although if you are on your way to work/the office ?…..
The other solution, begrudgingly, as mentioned above is a bladeless multi – and maybe a cheapy single blade tool ready to surrender?

At the risk of alienating everybody here and stating the bleeding obvious (with a nod to Basil Fawlty “Meet my wife - SpeSmurfpillst subject the bleeding obvious” ! ) I wanted to pitch in on the laws

Knives are dangerous weapons and cause nasty, sometimes fatal injury
Knives can be used as weapons (by baddies) and knife crime is a big problem.
– I don’t think anyone can argue with this. 

The problem we MT guys have is that knives are also tools used by goodies – I am sure everyone here would also agree with that –  although I know some of us also regard/carry a knife as a weapon.

So I have some sympathy with the law makers trying to keep us and our streets safe.

The problem is - How can I make one rule for the goodie tool users, and one for the baddie criminals - for the same object?    ….. Of course you can’t.
I wish there was a way to allow all multitools with blades (oho, locking etc) in this type of legislation, but it is clearly impossible.   
You can just imagine a knife manufacturer/criminal having a 6” bladed knife with a tiny screwdriver in the handle and claiming it’s a multitool.
There has to be one rule for all.
[This is all, of course, assuming you accept there has to be legislation at all. I know some people here have posted that there should be none, as it hurts the goodies and has no effect on the baddies].

I think this is where category of knife blade can come in - I think Mr. E said in another post that it is almost impossible to seriously injure someone with a 3” blade, and if your knife is also a slippy, then the chances of a dangerous stab is even slimmer.
So basically your traditional SAK or pocket knife should be OK 
I think this is where the UK law makers got it right, and where the law makers in Tassie got it so wrong.    To allow a slip joint with a blade less than three inches is common sense and a good compromise. To single out that type of tool as dangerous is, as I said before, ludicrous.

I loved Mr. E’s post above that SAKs are excluded from all weapon laws in Switzerland. Brilliant - But let’s face it - It would be pretty crazy, and hilarious, to have a law in Switzerland to outlaw the Swiss Army knife.
Although if you think about it a locked Wenger Ranger blade could be a pretty nasty (or effective, depending on your viewpoint) weapon.
Another funny thought – How is a Swiss Army knife defined? – Presumably a Wenger or a Vic? So does that mean knock-offs, or Boker’s, US made knives etc etc … and even Swiza’s are classified as weapons in Switzerland - and therefore included in the laws?? 

Anyway I am a SAK guy in Oz and will continue to carry a SAK in my pocket - and I usually also have a PST or Wave or such like (with blade) close by, eg in my man bag or car– And I will not change my habits. As mentioned before - My boring old fart demeanour (and “I am not a criminal”/“have to cut up an apple”/ “groom my nails”!) may help here! Although looking at the wording of the Tassie law in the original post and Cody’s comments - I don’t think I have much hope.

However I really worry for my son.
I think back to my childhood, and many happy days tromping around the woods with my pocket knife in my pocket, whittling away at a piece of wood and doing all the good and healthy things a boy does with his pocket knife (I nearly said tool there!!!  ). And I think this may be an experience he never has. The mountain has been taken away!!

[Grant Lamontagne]

Good points and I would like to address a few of them but I'm on my phone right now so I'll just say this-

I have personally seen the carnage that can result from a Victorinox Classic on a crowded dance floor in a bar.

If bad guys want to cause damage, no amount of laws are going to stop them.  They will either obtain illegal items or they will use legal items in ways other than intended.

Def

[Sea Monster]

I have personally seen the carnage that can result from a Victorinox Classic on a crowded dance floor in a bar.

You should see* what can be done with an aerosol can, a tin can, and a handful of screws.
 

All of which, incidentally, are quite legal to purchase and carry.


*Well, you probably shouldn't.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have personally seen the carnage that can result from a Victorinox Classic on a crowded dance floor in a bar.

You should see what can be done with an aerosol can, a tin can, and a handful of screws.
 

All of which, incidentally, are quite legal to purchase and carry.

Careful, or your local hardware store will be raided by the Feds.....   

But yes, that is exactly my point.  If injuring people is illegal and bad people are willing to break that law, are they going to worry about breaking the law about carrying something on an arbitrary list of no no items?

Hell, it should probably also be illegal to buy a baseball bat in New Jersey then. After all, it's not like they have a team.

I'm going to stop now before I have to ban myself. 

Def

[TazzieRob]

Unfortunately, in Australia we have had a number of deaths from a "King Hit" or as it is starting to be called, (and I agree) a "Coward's Punch", where some angry, often drunk person uses a single punch to put someone on the ground. So you don't even need a weapon to kill someone, but they won't go and outlaw fists as an edc item... will they?

[Gohard]

I have personally seen the carnage that can result from a Victorinox Classic on a crowded dance floor in a bar.

You should see what can be done with an aerosol can, a tin can, and a handful of screws.
 

All of which, incidentally, are quite legal to purchase and carry.

Careful, or your local hardware store will be raided by the Feds.....   

Hell, it should probably also be illegal to buy a baseball bat in New Jersey then. After all, it's not like they have a team.

I'm going to stop now before I have to ban myself. 

Def

Haha. New Jersey have a team?

[dks]

I would not use the word "Grooming" as an excuse these days.......  It is associated with criminal actions.

[Etherealicer]

Another funny thought – How is a Swiss Army knife defined? – Presumably a Wenger or a Vic? So does that mean knock-offs, or Boker’s, US made knives etc etc … and even Swiza’s are classified as weapons in Switzerland - and therefore included in the laws?? 

As the law reads they would be included. I would even think that you could carry a LM Surge or a Gerber MP with this ruling as in the spirit of the law they are the same (the letter is way to ambiguous).

But then chances that you have to justify this to the police here are marginal. This law is more so they can confiscate anything dangerous around a football stadium etc.

[Sea Monster]

Unfortunately, in Australia we have had a number of deaths from a "King Hit" or as it is starting to be called, (and I agree) a "Coward's Punch", where some angry, often drunk person uses a single punch to put someone on the ground.

Some of the cases, the injuries resulting in death are caused by the table/chair/floor behind the person who gets hit.

[Grant Lamontagne]

We call that a sucker punch here, and I have seen some pretty serious ones in my time.  In fact, one of the bars I used to work at, I was hired specifically to replace a few of the doormen who had actually killed a patron after they hit him like that.  Yes, I have worked in some seriously crappy bars.... ask DerekMac about The Dome if you don't believe me....

As for outlawing fists, well, that is largely what they are doing with the knives, isn't it?  Apparently the law of not stabbing someone wasn't enough of a deterrent, let's make another law to add on to it and maybe that will work?  Oh?  You killed someone when you punched them and they fell backwards and fractured their skull on the sidewalk?  Well, let's make fists and sidewalks illegal as well, since committing the crime of assault is not serious enough.

Of course, I don't know what they are like in Tasmania (other than watching the odd episode of Wentworth) but jail here is not much of a deterrent to anything, so even if you commit a crime and get caught it's not that big of a deal.

Def

[derekmac]

OMG, The Dome.    That was quite the classy establishment!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grant Lamontagne]

OMG, The Dome.    That was quite the classy establishment!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember when the doormen beat the guy to death outside?  I was hired to replace them right after that incident.   

Def

[WoodsDuck]

I knew a fellow who was hit on the head with an empty beer bottle and suffered severe brain damage, so there's another item for the list.

And I'm sure they're applying these knife laws to screwdrivers, since they've been used in so many stabbing attacks, right?

Lastly, I keep getting splinters in my feet, so can we just go ahead and outlaw all wood construction worldwide?

[Kev D]

Doors to add to the list as well. I got a car door opened on to my bonce once and put me absolute sparko  very dangerous weapon 

[ironraven]

If you can't weaponize something, you either aren't motivated or you're just stupid.

My "humans are disgusting" prize last year went to some one in china, I think it was shanghai, who beat a woman to death. Crowded street. Lots of cameras. The impact device of choice was her infant.

I'll let you think about that one for a moment.



As for "King Hit", it's called the knockout game or punchout game here. I've had two coworkers nailed with it the past couple years. And this is Vermont. But you won't find a word about it in the papers or the news. Just like we spent a very long time saying we didn't have a drug problem, and we claim we don't have an issue with meth it's just opiods around here. Everyone wants a simple, easy, magical solution. Pass a law, pass a law. Last time I looked it was illegal to kill someone or walk up behind them in a public place and try to knock them out with one punch. Last time I looked lots of crap was illegal. Passing laws won't change it. Bouncing the cops who try to enforce laws because it wouldn't be politically correct, or hasseling law abiding citizens, that won't change it.

We are watching the end of an era, ladies and gents. It wasn't the germanic tribes that defeated Rome, it was the don't give a damns that did it. Greed, cowardice and stupidity. As much as I hate to concede the game, maybe it's time to pull the plug on the first world. Let the Chinese take a whack at it again, and in that case, I will wish them a Pax, a Pax upon their house.

[Sea Monster]

Of course, I don't know what they are like in Tasmania (other than watching the odd episode of Wentworth) but jail here is not much of a deterrent to anything, so even if you commit a crime and get caught it's not that big of a deal.

Being in Tasmania is already the highest punishment we can think of 

I knew a fellow who was hit on the head with an empty beer bottle and suffered severe brain damage, so there's another item for the list.

Waaaaay ahead of you. Glass is banned in a number of places, and most events.

We are watching the end of an era, ladies and gents. It wasn't the germanic tribes that defeated Rome, it was the don't give a damns that did it. Greed, cowardice and stupidity. As much as I hate to concede the game, maybe it's time to pull the plug on the first world. Let the Chinese take a whack at it again, and in that case, I will wish them a Pax, a Pax upon their house.

You can generally have peace or freedom, but not both.

The trick, I suppose, is to make people think they are "choosing" peace, rather than having it forced upon them.

Room 101 has something for everyone.




On a completely unrelated note, it just occurred to me. I once loved a woman named "Taz Robbie"