Respect for international members

[captain spaulding]

I am happy I stepped back from this thread for a few days before responding. I will try and keep this short for a few reasons. All I want to say is if I offended anyone I am truly sorry. I never want to make anyone feel uncomfortable in any way. Saying that, making someone uncomfortable should not be demonized in the way you are doing. In your rants and preaching you are doing exactly what you are trying to stop. You seem to take every opportunity to "playfully" insult me as well as other members and play it off as intelligent word play to prove your point. Just remember when you are pointing that finger you are quite literally pointing three back at yourself. That is all I have been seeing from you is finger pointing and shaming rather than trying to actually solve a issue. That is all I will say in this thread and I hope you respect my opinion as I respect yours. I will not reply to anyone in this thread so if you want to paint me as a evil American with a closed mind so be it. Have fun everyone and keep it respectful.

[Zed]

You have never offended me Capt ,too be honest I live in a bit of a bubble, I don't care if people are blue pink purple etc etc, I'm not going to bore people with long posts with clever words as I have a life and want to enjoy it  this forum means alot to me,I've suffered badly with my health over the last 4-5 years mentally and physically and here is where I come to get away from all the BS, I'll say nowt more other than this is the best place on the net and this will not change 

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks for your measured response Cap'n.

I hope you can understand what I was trying to do (and also trying NOT to do) even if in some peoples eyes I didn't succeed to whatever extent. I no more wanted to offend you than you say you wanted to offend me, and of course I respect your opinion on it 

[AimlessWanderer]

I bought some brass pin stock from you awhile ago, if you can find my mailing address that should answer it

That was eons ago  although that has made me suspect it was Theo 

[theonew]

 

[powernoodle]

I do not appreciate the original post, nor the guilt by association it implicates, because the post evinces the very bias it purports to condemn.  If a member acts outside the bounds of decency, that member should be dealt with directly rather than trying to paint an entire demographic with a broad brush.  To say that rude behavior only comes from American posters is not supported by the facts.  I have had my fundamental beliefs - my Christianity and my right to bear arms -  condemned by European liberals on MTO, and when Greek soSmurfpillsm collapsed under the weight of its own gluttony, solvent westerners were blamed on MTO. So there are knuckleheads of every flavor and every demographic on the interweb, and that is true at MTO.  Broadly admonishing America posters is tantamount to a classroom of school kids getting chastised for the act of a single student.

Consider please dealing with individual offenders directly, rather than broadly mischaracterizing an entire demographic.

[Don Pablo]

<Serious off>
I blame the ancient romans, would the greek economy have crashed if they hadn't taken all that golden loot? 
</Serious off>

[kkokkolis]

We never had soSmurfpillsm in Greece, who said that? We always went with capitalism and when you are a small state with reasonable (and in many instances far above reasonable) wages and no heavy industry, you can't stand besides industrial giants like US, Germany and, above all China. Goldman Sachs and other US based companies popped off the bubble, but the crisis was international.
The only SoSmurfpillst countries in Europe (as I understand soSmurfpillsm), are in Scandinavia. They do well and are traditional friends of USA (and Greece).
You may find Greeks blaming US for everything, but -rulling out Cold War reasons- that started in 1974. It is out of fashion now already.

You can't blame a country, you can only blame people. In all democratic countries there is a goverment and opposition. Usually opposition is broader than the gorvement, just more divided. So, who would anyone blame?
Moreover, most big countries have great diversity, in cultures, nationalities, languages, beliefs and so on.


For historical accuracy, I'll say that Greece started poor and small after 400 years of foreign domination, with a long liberation war that lasted for 100 years (1821-1922) and ended with a catastrophe, just to be ruined again during 1941-1949, because of a devastating occupation and a civil war (the first hot episode of the Cold War most forget, jumping directly to Korean War). Most Balcan states have a similar history (but belonging to the opposite camp). Many foreign gorvements and armies played their part. Still, there's no price we shouldn't pay for freedom.

Accusing all Greeks for gluttony is the same as accusing any other whole nation for anything particular.

[lister]

<Serious off>
I blame the ancient romans, would the greek economy have crashed if they hadn't taken all that golden loot? 
</Serious off>

So you are leaving your serious off?   

Ps: oh It's a html end tag. Nevermind...   

[ironraven]

Why is this so hard to understand?

It is very hard to understand when every time you open your mouth, you feel the need to prove you were right with, to appropriate your term, the "Yank bashing" in your original post. I have not seen what I would call an apology. You start, that's why I classed it as proforma, but you then keep on defending and justifying what you said and how you said it. THat is the fastest way to make an apology a shadow of the real thing.

Why is it so very hard to understand that many of the American members of this forum have said that they find your statement and/or your way of saying it insulting and offensive? Read the responses. I'm just the least polite about it. Just a couple of fine, outstanding gentlemen's words, finer than mine:

I do not appreciate the original post, nor the guilt by association it implicates, because the post evinces the very bias it purports to condemn.... Consider please dealing with individual offenders directly, rather than broadly mischaracterizing an entire demographic.

[M}aking someone uncomfortable should not be demonized in the way you are doing. In your rants and preaching you are doing exactly what you are trying to stop. You seem to take every opportunity to "playfully" insult me as well as other members and play it off as intelligent word play to prove your point.

And that didn't even take hitting the "back a page" button to find. You want us to believe you aren't targeting EVERY American in this forum, but a lot of us are clearly having some difficulty believing you when you say it.


But here is the real killer post of the day for me.

Suggest a way of making sure that non-Americans are not targetted for any frustrations they feel at home.

(emphasis added)

By your own words you show your truth. If you were serious about an apology, if you weren't trying to take cheap swipes at us, you would have said "none of us" or "no one". Instead, your very statement carves out a very special exception for Americans. I guess you really are saying it's ok to target Americans, as a group. If you meant a select few, you'd have called them out, rather than dancing around naming us as a group, as a nation, as a people, in a way that left a reek that is still in our noses three days later.

I want to call an end to this. This is the ugliest thing I've ever seen here. If we were in person, I'd be tempted to call for a duel- matched paintball markers. They sting more than Nerf darts. But that is not possible, and I'm trying to be more civilized this year. So I beg everyone's forgiveness for my undiplomatic words, and my rather peculiar proposal.

Moderators!

Your attention!

I know well the ancient caution against asking for judgement, "lest you be judged". But in this, clearly, one of these two perspectives is in the wrong, so I call for judgement before every member of this community. The penalty: naughty step and unable to post for the rest of the week, me or 50ft, banned until midnight 5th of August, 2017. I'll take it for every American here if we are all priggish louts has been claimed and our position is found against. Otherwise, on Sunday August 6th, 2017, I'll welcome our English cousin back after he has again found the manners and wits that I know he posses.

[theonew]

On a philosophical level, if you insult me and yet I don't take it as an insult, does it count as an actual insult or just attempted insultation

As a New York City dweller for 20 years now, I have a rather thick skin. I do draw the line at insults regarding my dog though. Call him fat or funny looking and I will shoot you

[Syncop8r]

On a philosophical level, if you insult me and yet I don't take it as an insult, does it count as an actual insult or just attempted insultation

I think insults are given, but offence can only be taken not given. If that helps.... 

[Aloha]

On a philosophical level, if you insult me and yet I don't take it as an insult, does it count as an actual insult or just attempted insultation

I think insults are given, but offence can only be taken not given. If that helps.... 

Interesting. So, if one intends on offending you and you are not offended then.........?  If one intends on insulting you and you aren't insulted then.......?

I too believe I am rather thick skinned as they say.  So I am neither offended nor insulted.   

[Syncop8r]

On a philosophical level, if you insult me and yet I don't take it as an insult, does it count as an actual insult or just attempted insultation

I think insults are given, but offence can only be taken not given. If that helps.... 

Interesting. So, if one intends on offending you and you are not offended then.........?  If one intends on insulting you and you aren't insulted then.......?

Hmmm.... someone could take offence at something that wasn't intended to be offensive.
I guess someone could also be insulted by something that wasn't intended to be insulting.
But an insult is something that is meant to be insulting.
So is it still insulting or offensive if offence is not taken?

I don't know, this is too hard. 

[Syncop8r]

As a New York City dweller for 20 years now, I have a rather thick skin. I do draw the line at insults regarding my dog though. Call him fat or funny looking and I will shoot you

Your dog has weird eyes 

[4everYoung]

On a philosophical level, if you insult me and yet I don't take it as an insult, does it count as an actual insult or just attempted insultation

Actually you have to go back further than that and first answer the questions "Do good and evil/good and bad really exist?" "Do objective morals exist "And "are humans merely molecular machines used for propagating DNA?" Finally "are things like thoughts, feelings or the about ness of things actually exist?"   
You have to have answer to these before you can attempt to properly make sense of the first question.
By answer I don't mean just assert a position without good reasons for thinking so. Otherwise that is simple circular reasoning.
If anyone needs help with these concepts I will gladly unpack them further.

[Poncho65]

Ok everyone, I had suspected the tone of this thread might not end the best. I see many valid points on both sides but that is not the point of my post.  I will not take sides on this nor temporary ban anyone but from now on before anyone (and I do mean anyone) presses the post button, think about what you have typed out and see if you think it might be offensive were the tables turned and it would be directed at you.  We have a great forum with many cultures from all over the world and I love finding out tidbits of information and getting history lessons from many of you. When I first joined I had preconceptions of different peoples societies and after joining in on the conversation I was pleasantly surprised that I was mostly wrong with those preconceptions.  I found that even though we might have came from different parts of the world and different backgrounds I was very similar to many of you and that made me very happy.  So we need to get past this thread and get back to getting along because that is what we do here at MTO.  I enjoy the silliness and derailing of threads and the lightheartedness of this place and call this my internet home.  So as I said way back in the beginning of the thread let's get back to the old sarcastic MTO and not continue this bickering.  Thank you all for being you but from now on try to be a nicer you than you were before and let's quit taking all these subtle little jabs at one another and if you disagree with an individual, instead of calling them out just PM them and try to work it out. 

[Poncho65]

3 people posted maybe 4 while I typed that out

But be kind and try to understand everything from the other persons POV

[WoodsDuck]

3 people posted maybe 4 while I typed that out

But be kind and try to understand everything from the other persons POV

That's the problem with you Ponchos- you all type too slow! If you can't type 90wpm get off my forum! 

[Aloha]

On a philosophical level, if you insult me and yet I don't take it as an insult, does it count as an actual insult or just attempted insultation

Actually you have to go back further than that and first answer the questions "Do good and evil/good and bad really exist?" "Do objective morals exist "And "are humans merely molecular machines used for propagating DNA?" Finally "are things like thoughts, feelings or the about ness of things actually exist?"   
You have to have answer to these before you can attempt to properly make sense of the first question.
By answer I don't mean just assert a position without good reasons for thinking so. Otherwise that is simple circular reasoning.
If anyone needs help with these concepts I will gladly unpack them further.

Ouch, I had to hard reset my brain.  Hold please...........

enjoy the music.........

[Poncho65]

3 people posted maybe 4 while I typed that out

But be kind and try to understand everything from the other persons POV

That's the problem with you Ponchos- you all type too slow! If you can't type 90wpm get off my forum! 

I should have been on my computer instead of my phone

I still can't get 90 wpm

[Aloha]

3 people posted maybe 4 while I typed that out

But be kind and try to understand everything from the other persons POV

That's the problem with you Ponchos- you all type too slow! If you can't type 90wpm get off my forum! 

I should have been on my computer instead of my phone

I still can't get 90 wpm

Get in the slow lane Poncho.

[Poncho65]

3 people posted maybe 4 while I typed that out

But be kind and try to understand everything from the other persons POV

That's the problem with you Ponchos- you all type too slow! If you can't type 90wpm get off my forum! 

I should have been on my computer instead of my phone

I still can't get 90 wpm

Get in the slow lane Poncho.

  There that seems to work better

[Aloha]

 

[AimlessWanderer]

Ironraven, Mr Noodle,

I stand by the fact that we have a repeated problem by a few select members in relation to one specific issue, which makes derogatory comments at people about themselves, their homeland, and their cultures, who shouldn't need to be on the receiving end of that here at MTO.  Reitterated several times - if that's not clear to you by now - it never will be

(I do also acknowledge Noodle's claim that we have had other more isolated instances of other groups being ranted about on potentially similar but not identical issues, I do recall ONE EU economics agenda, and ONE hunting one. Neither recurred time and time like the highlighted issue in my OP did so far as I am aware)

I stand by the fact this just sweeping recurring issue by a small minority from one area, and it under the carpet as tried many times before doesn't work.  Reitterated several times - if that's not clear to you by now - it never will be 

I stand by the fact that I have singled out the few against the many, and said that the many great US members should not be tarnished in other peoples opinions by the behaviour of the few First post, lauding praise on the many, and reitterated multiple times later - if that's not clear to you by now - it never will be

I stand by the fact that I am open to other suggestions as to how this topic may be effectively addressed in future. I cannot envisage that any of us wish it to continue, unless they intentionally want to cause upset.

I stand by any previous apologies I made in the thread

I recognise that you want me to now apologise for calling out the selected few, defending the many, trying to find ways to prevent the selected few ranting at people they should not be ranting at (basically you want me to STFU and let this issue keep recurring). You want me to apologise for you being offended, that other people get offended. You want me to pretend that people haven't (quite possibly intentionally) missed the point, and it's naughty old me for stepping out of line. You want me to apologise for trying to find a way to actually stop these small neo-tribal fallouts happening at MTO instead of just sweeping them aside, pretending everythings rosy, and just sitting back accepting any crap that comes my way and watching more members walk away from the forum. Not happening!

This IS a recurring problem. It may not be the ONLY recurring problem, but it is a GENUINE recurring issue that keeps cropping up by the same minority, and shouldn't happen  I don't see how or why that should be denied or defended. I don't see why folks getting this abuse should have to tolerate it, I'm NOT saying that others should tolerate conflicting abuse in return, I'm saying we should find a way that nobody gets it. Reitterated several times - if it's not clear to you by now - it never will be

If you still feel what you keep saying you feel, then you really need to go back and reread it. Everything is spelled out clearly. Yes, there will be plenty of opportunity for you to intentionally twist my comments to reinforce some obscure convoluted perspective should you choose to, and also plenty of opportunity to try and see that I have said and meant everything that you deny I have said and meant should you choose to do that instead.

[AimlessWanderer]

I really don't think I can add anything now other than repetition of what I have already said. If anyone want's it repeating, just go back and read it again 

If anyone wishes to continue this further, either in favour or against, my PM inbox is ready and waiting 

[hiraethus]

Ok everyone, I had suspected the tone of this thread might not end the best. I see many valid points on both sides but that is not the point of my post.  I will not take sides on this nor temporary ban anyone but from now on before anyone (and I do mean anyone) presses the post button, think about what you have typed out and see if you think it might be offensive were the tables turned and it would be directed at you.  We have a great forum with many cultures from all over the world and I love finding out tidbits of information and getting history lessons from many of you. When I first joined I had preconceptions of different peoples societies and after joining in on the conversation I was pleasantly surprised that I was mostly wrong with those preconceptions.  I found that even though we might have came from different parts of the world and different backgrounds I was very similar to many of you and that made me very happy.  So we need to get past this thread and get back to getting along because that is what we do here at MTO.  I enjoy the silliness and derailing of threads and the lightheartedness of this place and call this my internet home.  So as I said way back in the beginning of the thread let's get back to the old sarcastic MTO and not continue this bickering.  Thank you all for being you but from now on try to be a nicer you than you were before and let's quit taking all these subtle little jabs at one another and if you disagree with an individual, instead of calling them out just PM them and try to work it out. 

A most excellent post, Poncho.

[Corwyn]

For historical accuracy, I'll say that Greece started poor and small after 400 years of foreign domination, with a long liberation war that lasted for 100 years (1821-1922) and ended with a catastrophe, just to be ruined again during 1941-1949, because of a devastating occupation and a civil war (the first hot episode of the Cold War most forget, jumping directly to Korean War). Most Balcan states have a similar history (but belonging to the opposite camp). Many foreign gorvements and armies played their part. Still, there's no price we shouldn't pay for freedom.

Accusing all Greeks for gluttony is the same as accusing any other whole nation for anything particular.

Honestly, in the Balkans I think it is a lot of envy: "Look at those Greeks, not only are they lucky enough to have been born in the most beautiful country in the world (and yes, it is - I'm saving every summer to visit a new island), they are just like us, their economy sucks just as bad as ours - why did they have wages 4-5 times what we have then? Serves them right it backfired."

All in all, Greece will be fine, it is an important country and the biggest touristic hub in the area, the economy will get fixed in a couple of years. Plus I'd rather have been in your shoes and have had 20-30 years of prosperity and run into some temporary problems then to have spent the same 20-30 years in poverty eating stale bread and freezing in the cold, happy that today is not as cold as 20 years ago and the bread is not as stale and hoping that maybe in 20 years it will get actually warm and we may get margarine on that bread.

[kkokkolis]

why did they have wages 4-5 times what we have then?

But, to buy SAKs and Multitools of course!


I have enough now, I can live in poverty for the next 7 years.

[lister]

why did they have wages 4-5 times what we have then?

But, to buy SAKs and Multitools of course!


I have enough now, I can live in poverty for the next 7 years.

A wise man once said that if you have enough saks, you can never be poor...

Yes, I am calling myself wise!

Yes, I am calling myself a man!

Oh smurf you guys I am going home!!