UK police to carry handheld fingerprint scanner

[jzmtl]

So after installing more than 4.3 million closed-circuit cameras, expanding its DNA database to include data on over four million people, collecting seven and half million fingerprint for the police national fingerprint database, they will now issue handheld fingerprint scanner to police by 2010.

Is it me or is it getting worse than soviet russia that people love to mock relating to state control of its people? 

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/10/27/fingerprint-scanners.html

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Why do you think most Brits would love to up sticks and bugger off almost anywhere else

[appletree_man]

Not me, proud to live here.










Until I have enough cash to move 
The problem is countries are getting more samey by the day 

[Neil]

I don't have a problem with a portable print scanner.  I can see it saving everyone a lot of time.  Your fingerprints are on file if you've previously committed an offence. 

Now in X years time when they have portable DNA scanners, then I'll object.  I object to the DNA database, because unlike the fingerprint one, you don't have to have committed an offence to end up on it.  You can be charged with an offence, your DNA taken, then proved innocent and your DNA stays on file.  Its at this stage that people point out that if you're up to no wrong you have nothing to fear.  Oh, really?  because these things would never be abused would they?  I lack that kind of faith 

Neil

[jzmtl]

But how do you know your fingerprint isn't on file the same way your DNA got on file without being convicted?

[Grant Lamontagne]

The problem with a fingerprint or DNA database is that you can only check it against prints and DNA that you have on file.  Many crimes are committed by folks who simply haven't been caught yet, many people manage to get off because their prints/DNA are not properly cross checked with pre-existing crimes (not the ones they were caught for), or simply are released because they don't have identification and give the police a fake name when picked up.

While I am not a big fan of Big Brother type tactics, I am against letting criminals go free because of something pointless.  Yes, it has the potential to be abused- everything does, but this is one of those rare instances where the idiots that make laws and institute procedures without ever having been on the streets may have accidentally gotten one right. 

The local downtown bars (including the one I used to work at) have instituted a policy that everyone must present a driver's license before entering the bar, even if they are obviously well above the drinking age.  This way, they have everyone's name and address on file, so if that person causes a disturbance, gets in a fight or causes property damage, he/she is held accountable for it.  The database is also shared amongst all the other bars, so they can decide whether or not to allow this person access. 

Basically all these devices allow for is more accurate record keeping, and the resulting sharing of information. 

Def

[Flash]

.

[ducktapehero]

While I am not a big fan of Big Brother type tactics, I am against letting criminals go free because of something pointless.  Yes, it has the potential to be abused- everything does, but this is one of those rare instances where the idiots that make laws and institute procedures without ever having been on the streets may have accidentally gotten one right.

Nope, since it has the potential to be abused at some time it WILL be abused. Governments are batting 1000 at taking away our rights. It ALWAYS happens. Government never voluntarily relinquishes power. It has to be taken back. Either by the voting in a voting booth or "voting from the rooftops".

Like here in the good ole US of A, when social security was started it was promised that it would NEVER be used as a form of identification, a short 70 years later and you are no longer a name to the gov't, you are a number, which happens to be the same as your social security number. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER trust a government. NEVER!!!!

[Benner]

I'm going to open a can of worms here  .  I can't see why this would bother anyone?    Don't break the law and then you have nothing to worry about.

[appletree_man]

But more laws are added all the time, will this info eventually be used for 'environmental crimes' such as dropping a sweetie wrapper or saying the wrong (ie: non PC) thing in public 

Remember this is a country which considered placing cameras in dustbins to monitor our 'crimes'.

[Freudian Frog]

The only reason I'd be against this is cost effectiveness. I guess it'd help for catching ex-cons but is it worth it?! IS THE COST WORTH IT?!

[Benner]

The only reason I'd be against this is cost effectiveness. I guess it'd help for catching ex-cons but is it worth it?! IS THE COST WORTH IT?!

At least we would actually be seeing something happening with the money.

[jzmtl]

I'm going to open a can of worms here  .  I can't see why this would bother anyone?    Don't break the law and then you have nothing to worry about.

Theoretically yeah, but nothing ever works out that way does it. Like mentioned it's just asking for abuse. And they way they collect data? You are only suppose to be in if you are convicted, otherwise your data should be destroyed. But really, I bet it'll be "accidentally" forgotten, and your data from sources other than arrestation will "accidentally" slip into it as well. I'm not being paranoid here, I've seen it in the news that canadian government has done the "accidentally" thing.

[Benner]

I'm going to open a can of worms here  .  I can't see why this would bother anyone?    Don't break the law and then you have nothing to worry about.

Theoretically yeah, but nothing ever works out that way does it. Like mentioned it's just asking for abuse. And they way they collect data? You are only suppose to be in if you are convicted, otherwise your data should be destroyed. But really, I bet it'll be "accidentally" forgotten, and your data from sources other than arrestation will "accidentally" slip into it as well. I'm not being paranoid here, I've seen it in the news that canadian government has done the "accidentally" thing.

And that would matter why?

Sorry to be so "dumb" here, but I don't know much about this kinda thing.  But why would it matter if some computer had my info?

[Whoey]

it only matters if you have the intention of doing something you shouldnt be doing... that or the 1 in a million chance your DNA matches someone elses...

[Benner]

it only matters if you have the intention of doing something you shouldnt be doing... that or the 1 in a million chance your DNA matches someone elses...

So it only matters to the criminals then?  So why should I or any other decent citizen (for this argument we will assume I am one  ) be concerned then?

Seems like people are worried about nothing.

[jzmtl]

Because naturally when people are in a position of power, they will start to abuse it. Look up stanford prison experiment.

[Flash]

The prison experiment was fundamentally flawed in the selection of the participants.

Forget conspiracy theory...there are enough DECENT people in the corridors of power that good will overcome evil.

Opinions between us at MT.org will vary, mainly because enough DECENT people paid with their lives to enable us to speak with freedom...there is enough of their legacy to ensure this freedom will continue.

Up with DNA, down with criminals 

[Benner]

Because naturally when people are in a position of power, they will start to abuse it. Look up stanford prison experiment.

Seems a bit OTT to me.  But what do I know.

[NutSAK]

My fingerprints are on record and it doesn't bother me a bit.  I suppose if I had criminal intentions it would bother me.  Then again, if I had criminal intentions I might abuse my license to CCW, which is what I gave up my fingerprints for in the first place.

[Whoey]

hypothetical situation: lets say someone in your neighbourhood is a child molester... now the cops offer two solutions, everyone voluntarily gives DNA to prove they are not the person, and thus narrows down the search...  or two, they continue searching blindly, hoping that next time the molester rapes a child, they catch the person in the act (the chances of that are???)

So you'd basically say you refuse to have your DNA on file because you're innocent, thus making you technically a suspect?

That sounds like real fuzzy logic to me... but I've had a few beers...

[jzmtl]

Meh I give up, guess none of you have problems with big brother then.

[Benner]

Meh I give up, guess none of you have problems with big brother then.

Nope, I'm the eldest. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Well, the chance is greater than one in a million.... more like one in 113 billion, according to the FBI.  And, basically it's harmless info, and has nothing to do with determining where you ate lunch, how much your last phone bill was or whether you went too far with that secretary at your last office party.

The only way someone could really abuse it would be to switch records with someone else's in hopes of getting a false match in case of a criminal case.

Def

[NutSAK]

Meh I give up, guess none of you have problems with big brother then.

I do, but I don't consider having fingerprints on file to be anything to worry about.  If I did, I would choose to wear latex gloves. 

[ducktapehero]

Forget conspiracy theory...there are enough DECENT people in the corridors of power that good will overcome evil.

How do you figure? When? where? Governments, both religious and secular(so called "corridors of power", have killed FAR more people on this earth than so called "criminals".

[Anthony]

Copies of my fingerprints were taken invoulentarily from me when I was in the first grade.  I remember it was the first time I ever saw a "cop" in person.  There was a table set up in the school hallway with the ink pads and paperwork for each student.  Looking back I assume it was sold to parents as a security measure if a child got lost/kidnapped/found dead...and I'm sure it would come in quite handy for those purposes.  But I'd like to know where my "file" is now and if it was ever put into the digital system.

I don't like ANY kind of this record keeping on citizens.  The less personal information the governmant has the better.  The government is a variable/an X factor.

[duckman1975]

In the future I envisioned that the government will know everything about you to the point that they know how much to charge you for your fart emissions!

[Benner]

Copies of my fingerprints were taken invoulentarily from me when I was in the first grade.  I remember it was the first time I ever saw a "cop" in person.  There was a table set up in the school hallway with the ink pads and paperwork for each student.  Looking back I assume it was sold to parents as a security measure if a child got lost/kidnapped/found dead...and I'm sure it would come in quite handy for those purposes.  But I'd like to know where my "file" is now and if it was ever put into the digital system.

I don't like ANY kind of this record keeping on citizens.  The less personal information the governmant has the better.  The government is a variable/an X factor.

But why?

[665ae]

I've tried to stay out of this discussion... Really, I tried...

The local downtown bars (including the one I used to work at) have instituted a policy that everyone must present a driver's license before entering the bar, even if they are obviously well above the drinking age.  This way, they have everyone's name and address on file, so if that person causes a disturbance, gets in a fight or causes property damage, he/she is held accountable for it.  The database is also shared amongst all the other bars, so they can decide whether or not to allow this person access. 

Basically all these devices allow for is more accurate record keeping, and the resulting sharing of information. 

Def

If I'm entering a bar, then I'm voluntarily entering another persons property, so I'm subject to their rules and procedures.  If I'm walking down the street, or in my own home, what gives ANYONE the right to demand my fingerprints, DNA, or anything else from me?   

And for ANYONE who uses that idiotic statement "If your innocent, you've got nothing to worry about..."  Maybe you should go talk to all the people that can't fly anymore because of the No Fly list.  A lot of them are innocent and they can't get on a friggin airplane.  They were all innocent, and were supposed to have nothing to worry about...  Some of them have done everything required of them to get their names taken off the list, and they still can't fly. 

So, I'm to trust that a government who can't figure out who is allowed and who's not allowed to get on an airplane to figure out a system that will instantly identify who's a criminal and who isn't?  What's going to happen to those people who are falsely identified?  What kind of hoops are they going to be forced to jump through to prove that there's a mistake in the Fingerprint system?  Last time I knew... it was "Innocent until proven Guilty" not the other way around.