Blade to handle angle preferences

[Vidar]

I've been playing around with some thoughts about making a SAK design for a while. With more focus on the handle, blade,and screwdrivers in particular. Maybe with a proper prying thing too. Basic handle shape around 94x24mm, so slightly larger as well. (As I personally would have a better grip on SAKs if they were a bit higher).

One balance I need to make is the angle of the blade towards the handle. This also influences the shape of the handle. Basically it is a tradeoff between straight blade and straight handle, vs some angle and a more curved grippy handle. (It also affects if the knife point is above or below the handle axis center).

Personally I like the edge to have a slight angle backwards to the handle as that helps cutting rope and such, and the handle feels better to hold at slight angle. Straight handles also makes me more worried about loosing grip.

Either way I'd appreciate to hear some opinions and preferences of the wise folks here. Please take a look at the picture with some outlines from the range of alternatives.

[comis]

I've been playing around with some thoughts about making a SAK design for a while. With more focus on the handle, blade,and screwdrivers in particular. Maybe with a proper prying thing too. Basic handle shape around 94x24mm, so slightly larger as well. (As I personally would have a better grip on SAKs if they were a bit higher).

One balance I need to make is the angle of the blade towards the handle. This also influences the shape of the handle. Basically it is a tradeoff between straight blade and straight handle, vs some angle and a more curved grippy handle. (It also affects if the knife point is above or below the handle axis center).

Personally I like the edge to have a slight angle backwards to the handle as that helps cutting rope and such, and the handle feels better to hold at slight angle. Straight handles also makes me more worried about loosing grip.

Either way I'd appreciate to hear some opinions and preferences of the wise folks here. Please take a look at the picture with some outlines from the range of alternatives.

Interesting topic.  I probably won't consider myself an expert in knife design, but I remember seeing a video from Mike Stewart talking Loveless design, where the angle of the blade is 'tiled' downward to make the 'angle of attack' more aggressive.  So it will make a smaller blade performs more like a larger blade.  It does make sense and especially if you want to use the belly of the knife to perform most of the cutting task, also the tilted angle kinda act like a recurve and might help cut rope better too. 

In the picture, 1 and 3 seems rather close as compared to 2, and if it were a feature you would like to stand out, I'd probably go with 2.

[Nix]

4. 'Canadian'




The ergos with this are fantastic. The back swept handle lets the user keep his/her fingers up and away from work surfaces or target areas. One can 'reach' into tight spots. A blade angled down toward the edge puts the finger slightly under the edge, where they can get in the way.

Cooks have solved this probe with a drop edge:




Or an offset edge:





I vote for #4.

[Aloha]

When I got the Camillus #64 I was immediately curious about the angle of the blade to handle.  I've got to go now but I shall return to further discuss.  Great topic btw 

For now I'll leave a pic.  I have been thinking about blade angle to handle as well.  Sos actually spurred my thought on when she mentioned her preference of handle to blade angle in a thread. 

[Vidar]

In the picture, 1 and 3 seems rather close as compared to 2, and if it were a feature you would like to stand out, I'd probably go with 2.

It isn't meant as some distingverting feature or design per se - I'm basically aiming for a good general utility. I'll look for that Mike Stewart video. The angle of attack was indeed my basic concern here.

Nix, that is one slick knife! I'd love to do something like that, or have the edge go below the handle. I just can't think of a way to make that happen in a compact handle folder. (The blade fits completely in the handle).

Another relevant balance for that side of the discussion is the length of the curved section vs the straight part - a longer and rounder curved section would be easier to use at greater angles to a table for instance. The flip side will be a somewhat narrower blade towards the end, and a shorter area with a stable angle of attack for cutting rope etc.

[Vidar]

When I got the Camillus #64 I was immediately curious about the angle of the blade to handle.  I've got to go now but I shall return to further discuss.  Great topic btw 

For now I'll leave a pic.  I have been thinking about blade angle to handle as well.  Sos actually spurred my thought on when she mentioned her preference of handle to blade angle in a thread.

Yes, those are quite pronounced. I take that as a good sign. I'm aiming for a good middle of road general solution here.

[Rapidray]

Great photo’s and insight’s from Nix and Aloha.   
 

[Vidar]

Because Nix had to go off and vote for alternative 4 I just had to fiddle and try and make one. 

It seemed to be more food and kitchen themed so a tiny blade wouldn't make much sense. And a big blade wont fit well into a tiny handle. Thus larger size overall - length about 115mm / 4.5" inches and about  32mm/ 1.25"inches at its widest. Blade length just about 105mm or so in a straight line from point to point. (The actual edge and curve being a bit longer). It should allow chopping without banging fingers for most normal finger sized people.

Thinking food theme it should be easy to disassemble for cleaning. And where to put the bottle opener? No multi-tool without... More seriously, the big handle notch do limit other options a bit. What add-ons should be in a food themed multi-tool chopper anyway?

[comis]

I think Nix touch on a very good and valid point, is that if we look at many chef knife or trading knives back in time, many all have edge under handle.  But I notice a minor differences between the two where most chef knives assumed use on a cutting surface around waist level, so their edge angle could be titled upwards for convenience of use, but most trading knives may retain a flat edge angle to handle for more neutral use:



Some examples for trading knives

One certainly could argue most fur trading knives or skinner too do adopt upward edge angle, so I guess it really boils down to specific use and personal taste.


Vidar later bring up another good observation that many of these edge-angled-upward meat/chef knives are fixed blade larger in size, I think that too is a very valid observation.  With that said, it is not like it hasn't been done before, few example that pops into my heads:



Top-Spyderco Chef,
Middle-Lionh Mah KUF(Lionh Mah is a chef in previous life, before becoming a famous knife designer)
Bottom-Elijah Isham design, a very modern edge under handle design

Personally, I really value that 1-1/2 in of blade just right in front of the handle, those are prime real estate to me, closer to hand means I could exert larger amount of force while having control.  So if I have to pick one, I probably would more prefer Lionh Mah's design from the three above.


If we talk about food theme folding knife/MT, I think one big plus will be easy to disassemble.  Something like CRKT Homefront will be a perfect candidate, no tools required for a quick easy disassembly, and everything easily rinse under water if needed.

[Vidar]

I think Nix touch on a very good and valid point, is that if we look at many chef knife or trading knives back in time, many all have edge under handle.  But I notice a minor differences between the two where most chef knives assumed use on a cutting surface around waist level, so their edge angle could be titled upwards for convenience of use, but most trading knives may retain a flat edge angle to handle for more neutral use:
...
Vidar later bring up another good observation that many of these edge-angled-upward meat/chef knives are fixed blade larger in size, I think that too is a very valid observation.  With that said, it is not like it hasn't been done before, few example that pops into my heads:
...
Personally, I really value that 1-1/2 in of blade just right in front of the handle, those are prime real estate to me, closer to hand means I could exert larger amount of force while having control.  So if I have to pick one, I probably would more prefer Lionh Mah's design from the three above.

If we talk about food theme folding knife/MT, I think one big plus will be easy to disassemble.  Something like CRKT Homefront will be a perfect candidate, no tools required for a quick easy disassembly, and everything easily rinse under water if needed.

The working position is an interesting point. I assume most food preparation knives will generally be used downwards against a surface, while many more general ones might be used more freehand in all kinds of positions.

After fiddling with trying to make room for the fingers, I think most of those folders pictures would have a hard time with that if using the part of the blade closest to the handle? (Or they are very big). That said, if we're actually talking usable kitchen size I think my smallest decent kitchen knife has a blade length of about 130-140mm or so. That would also help as a longer handle would make it possible to move fingers a bit further back from the blade.

That CRKT Homefront was interesting. I think it might be made even simpler - that said, I've been wrong before.

[Aloha]

Great pics comis  .  I've always liked that Spydie Chef.  The pronounced downward facing blade does behave like a recurve.  I've not had a lot of time with the Camillus but I do like the blade angle.  I think the blades sweep from ricasso to tip is something as well.  HEST for example has quite a rounded cutting edge.  Lots of belly if you will.  Wenger is a good example of belly as compared to Victorinox.  I personally like Wenger blades a bit more for that reason.   

[Gerhard Gerber]

The OP immediately made me think if the SpydieChef, well covered by Comis.

Much as I would love to own the Spydiechef, it is unique in design and purpose.

If you think about the average SAK-like pocket knife, you are more likely to be cutting something you are holding in your hand, rather than on a cutting board.

I would vote for a slightly forward cant, as much for looks as function.

[Vidar]

I would vote for a slightly forward cant, as much for looks as function.

Yes, that is where I'm at the moment - it is kind of a function vs looks thing. Although maybe with more rounded edge up front and or belly for more flexible use.

Looking at that kitchen sketch again it has way too much angle - would be pretty bad ergonomics. So would need to be even higher and or with the knife not fully in the handle. (Which would make any multi-tool aspirations hard as the folded blade would be in the way if other tools are in use. Anyway, just a doodle).

[comis]

Oh, btw, the Mike Stewart's video where he talks about loveless angle of attack:



I was looking for something that has loveless feature, a small knife with finger guard while the ricarsso is not too big, and stumble upon this video.  I know Stewart has controversy in the blade community, I am neutral in that regard, neither support or aganist him.

[Vidar]

Thank you for that - I found lots of his videos, so finding that one was kind of looking for hay in needlestack. (Not only does it take time, but it hurts too!)

I've gone ahead with shape like the pictured below. A slight angle, and a point which is pretty much at the axis of the handle. The blade could actually be a bit longer, but that would make it quite pointy. And I do want it to be civil looking so people don't scream "he got a knife" if you pick it up to peel apples or something in public... I actually think that is one of the best features of SAKs - people tend to regard them primarily as tools.

[comis]

Thank you for that - I found lots of his videos, so finding that one was kind of looking for hay in needlestack. (Not only does it take time, but it hurts too!)

I've gone ahead with shape like the pictured below. A slight angle, and a point which is pretty much at the axis of the handle. The blade could actually be a bit longer, but that would make it quite pointy. And I do want it to be civil looking so people don't scream "he got a knife" if you pick it up to peel apples or something in public... I actually think that is one of the best features of SAKs - people tend to regard them primarily as tools.

Will this knife have a lock?  It'd be great if it does, since the point is at the center line and probably great for making a divot.

[Vidar]

This entire divot thing is new to me. The knife point is along the axis of the handle height-wise, but as this is a multi layer SAK style it is not at the center of the handle width-wise. I guess that doesn't make much of a difference? (The screwdriver is taking up the center going along the handle axis).

I'm not entirely decided on lock or not, but as per now it has a lock. For now anyway - just springs means slightly less expenses and weight. Then again most SAKs don't lock.

A lot of the focus is on making this tool quick to assemble, but yet serviceable. If that works as hoped it should by extension also be quite flexible and mod friendly. It is a system like setup though, so one could imagine mixing and matching components to get the personal favorite. Divots or not  

The slightly ambitious goal is to also make it serviceable in the field. If doable that will cost some extra, and add some 0.5 to 1 mm extra in width. Not sure it is worth it?
.

[RF52]

[comis]

This entire divot thing is new to me. The knife point is along the axis of the handle height-wise, but as this is a multi layer SAK style it is not at the center of the handle width-wise. I guess that doesn't make much of a difference? (The screwdriver is taking up the center going along the handle axis).

I'm not entirely decided on lock or not, but as per now it has a lock. For now anyway - just springs means slightly less expenses and weight. Then again most SAKs don't lock.

A lot of the focus is on making this tool quick to assemble, but yet serviceable. If that works as hoped it should by extension also be quite flexible and mod friendly. It is a system like setup though, so one could imagine mixing and matching components to get the personal favorite. Divots or not  

The slightly ambitious goal is to also make it serviceable in the field. If doable that will cost some extra, and add some 0.5 to 1 mm extra in width. Not sure it is worth it?
.

I don't know exactly the design, but from my experience playing with CRKT Homefront, I could tell you that anyone who needs a field serviceable knife will totally appreciate that knife. 

It literally can be taken apart in 10-15 seconds with no tools, and securely put back together in around the same time.  From watching yt video, I knew CRKT had been playing with that idea for many years, and finally they got it right and was able to make that.  And from what I see on yt, their intention is trying to apply this easy-assembly tech to as many models as possible.

I don't hunt myself, but if I do, that will be one great folder to take along.

[Vidar]

I'll take a look at that one.

The easy to disassemble was more a side effect of the opposite effort of making it easy and economical to assemble. Thus disassemble wasn't really a goal in itself, but when it looks you the eye one ought to look at it?

CRKT Homefront is just a knife it seems (?), so 10-15 seconds is a bit apples and oranges. With a multitools there are just so many more parts to disassemble and keep track of. Not I sure don't want to suddenly just sit with just some parts of it in some woods...

It should be helpful though for proper cleaning, changing right hand to left hand setup for those who prefers that, and of course tailor your own preference of tools. (From a sales perspective that is double-edged sword; hard to sell lots of different models if people can just get that extra part and change themselves. Then again, I would like it myself. And of course in case of any nick or damage easier to sharpen or replace the effected part).