New 1897 replica coming

[Sneider]

I'm really surprised how much hate and rejection Victorinox and this replica get in this thread. This is not the same MTO that I discovered and came to appreciate a few years ago. There are many products in EDC and other areas that I suspect have a better profit margin than this anniversary knife.
 

[SAKTaschenmesser]

Oh go on Myron, your write ups are always good. I 'd like to see a picture of the 125th Soldier and Officer side by side. If not here, then the blog?

Maybe earlier in the thread but missed it, what's the scale material?  Canevasite/Tufnol/phenolic/vulcanised cotton fibres?

Thank you, Huntsman.  I was finding it increasingly difficult to resist suggesting we start a separate thread for all the haters....  I bought this knife, but frankly won't be posting any pictures or impressions.  Hate this knife, think it's too expensive?  Fine, don't buy one.

[ulli]

Just watch that review



Maybe that helps to make a decision about that knife and its value. For me its worth every penny :-)

[Fireman]

Agreed, they can sell it for whatever they want to ask, however they choose to sell them.  Even for things I want badly, I won't play the lottery game where you have to be waiting to order at a certain moment and maybe you get it, maybe you don't.  Which is good news for everyone who does, because it's one less guy competing for the item.

That didn't work out like I thought it would.  Which leaves me hovering over "add to cart"...must...resist...

[SAKTaschenmesser]

I've succumbed to the temptation.

When they were released in the UK, I was camping, desperate for the first cup of tea of the day, um’d and ah’d and then they sold out within the hour.

I’ve bought one in Italy. I’m not expecting the landed price to be inordinately greater than the British retail price of £360 including VAT.

For any Brits interested, I estimate:

£298.89 Italian retail price excluding Italian or British VAT
£19.55 FedEx/DHL
£63.69 British import VAT
£0 British excise duty
£12.00 Customs clearance fee.

£394.13 Total, so a premium of about £30 which I can live with.

[Myron]

Congratulations, David!  Great news, and the origins of yours add to its story.  Well done!

Myron

[FolderBeholder]

Mine arrives tomorrow, can't wait!

[EMZ]

I'm really surprised how much hate and rejection Victorinox and this replica get in this thread. This is not the same MTO that I discovered and came to appreciate a few years ago. There are many products in EDC and other areas that I suspect have a better profit margin than this anniversary knife.
 

I've been thinking about your remarks. This is the outcome.
This knife is indeed rather expensive. It's not really in the price range for the average collector with an average income. However, as I've wrote before, better expensive than not for sale.
Why is it so expensive? Think about the R&D costs! Looking for the right materials takes a lot of effort. If Victorinox want this knife to be passed on to the next generations, its materials must be of an excellent quality. The cardboard, paints, plastics, sheet material, handle material, metals and so on, must be suited for a very long life. Many month, maybe years, of research have been done by any people. Text and outlay etc. had to be designed by professionals. marketing and engineer meetings had to be arranged. All this is an expensive adventure! And the retailers also want their share of the profit.
I think, the price for this LE knife is not exhorbitant, it's not a scam or a rip off. It's just an expensive, exclusive pocket knife.

[Bunk Tuppins]

You obviously did not take into consideration that there are people (myself included) who refuse to give Amazon their money.

OK understood and that's fine if you don't like a particular vendor.  But aren't you missing the point here?  Amazon itself and the third party vendors who sell through the Amazon site allow statistics to be compiled for the history of their price.  That was the graph I linked.  You don't have to buy from those vendors to use the information in the graph, which is telling you the market value of this item.  Markets are responsive, so if you see quite a large number of vendors represented on Amazon showing a price structure, the rest of the market is strongly influenced.  What do those stats show?   They show that you are blaming Victorinox when you should be blaming your vendor for high prices.

[Sneider]

I've been thinking about your remarks. This is the outcome.
This knife is indeed rather expensive. It's not really in the price range for the average collector with an average income. However, as I've wrote before, better expensive than not for sale.
Why is it so expensive? Think about the R&D costs! Looking for the right materials takes a lot of effort. If Victorinox want this knife to be passed on to the next generations, its materials must be of an excellent quality. The cardboard, paints, plastics, sheet material, handle material, metals and so on, must be suited for a very long life. Many month, maybe years, of research have been done by any people. Text and outlay etc. had to be designed by professionals. marketing and engineer meetings had to be arranged. All this is an expensive adventure! And the retailers also want their share of the profit.
I think, the price for this LE knife is not exhorbitant, it's not a scam or a rip off. It's just an expensive, exclusive pocket knife.

Thanks for your thoughts, EMZ. 
Of course the price is very high when compared to a Spartan. But I suspect some don't understand the concept behind this knife because it's uncommon in today's economy. Victorinox had nothing more of this knife. No plans, no manufacturing facilities, nothing. And as I understand it, there will be no other knife with these parts. Victorinox really put a lot of effort into a one-off series. There is more detailed information on this in the video by ulli. (Reply No. 152)

[Sawl Goodman]

Just watch that review



Maybe that helps to make a decision about that knife and its value. For me its worth every penny :-)

Excellent! Thanks for posting

[GearedForwards]

I'm really surprised how much hate and rejection Victorinox and this replica get in this thread. This is not the same MTO that I discovered and came to appreciate a few years ago. There are many products in EDC and other areas that I suspect have a better profit margin than this anniversary knife.
 

In general here is why I think this received this reception:

- Victorinox are not a luxury EDC good manufacturer in general. They make special editions with inflated prices to garner cash, but they bread and butter (and what they're known for/what made them a household name) is affordable yet high quality pieces. Pointing to more boutique brands that sell more expensive items isn't going to help, because Vic and those makers are inherently shooting for different marketshares of the EDC community (and the former is likely small batch made by one person a lot of the time). All the claims about high-priced Swiss labour is well and good, factories exist because it's cheaper manufacturing and the majority of the people employed are unskilled labour taught to do specific tasks in-house. Those items being compared to are also likely more premium materials than Vic steel, brass pins, and wood scales.

- They did all of this work to create this replica, which is what a lot of defenders are pointing to as justification of the cost, and then... just doing nothing else with it? They're either going to throw out all of that R&D or they're going to put out the same thing in 5-10 years and make more out of it. The former is an odd business decision, the latter just feels bad for everyone scrambling to get this version.

- People want this product, that is readily evident not only by the collector community, but by the number of people in this thread saying that they want it. They could have released it as they did now as 'The Collector's edition' with the limited numbering on the blade, memorial packaging, time capsule thing and the knife slip, and then a more economically priced version that ships in  a standard box. This is already a mass produced product, I can't imagine they wouldn't just make more money turning it into a regular product unless they plan on cycling it in and out as a FOMO LE edition.

When you make a product people want, then restrict the number made and price it out of most of their budgets, people will be unhappy to some degree. I would wager that the defenders are not only people that are heavily into SAK collecting, but also have a high enough salary that this purchase makes sense to them. That's not a bad thing, that's not their fault, but it's a drastic shift in perspective that should be considered.

It looks nicely made, and I hope those that chose to get one enjoy it 

[ulli]

I don't understand the excitement about the price at all. It seems like there is a compulsion to buy this knife. It is up to you whether you want to do this or not. And none of us can really judge how much money went into the development of this knife and therefore nobody can judge whether the price is justified or not. And all those who complain - but then buy the knife after all. That's hypocritical. And an economy version for 450 instead of 500 dollars that would be the solution? Because that's probably what's left when you peel off the packaging. I think people want the knife but don't have the money. Then of course it is easier to "blame" the manufacturer for the lack of possibility of not being able to purchase the knife than to look at yourself. Ultimately, Victorinox managed to secure its existence over the long term, even through major economic crises, without having to lay off staff. Victorinox was recently named "Company of the Year" and has an excellent reputation among employees. Apparently Victorinox is doing a lot of things right. They can't do anything about the lack of money in your own wallets. But they offer enough cheaper alternatives, which according to my calculations they sometimes pay extra for, means they have a negative margin so that it is available to a large audience.

[Etherealicer]

[...]inflated prices to garner cash[...]

Honestly doubt that, between the costs of making it, it is financially probably barely worth. The bigger benefit is possibly advertisement. See below, but also add in planning (managment, they earn a bit more) & prototyping (by skilled laborers)

[...]high-priced Swiss labour is well and good, factories exist because it's cheaper manufacturing and the majority of the people employed are unskilled labour taught to do specific tasks in-house[...]

Hourly wage for production is $28 on average  in Switzerland. Didn't find the numbers for factory workers, but for office worker they say roughly double the salary to estimate cost, so for factory workers it is almost certainly higher (more expensive infrastructure and more expensive insurance)

[...]but they bread and butter (and what they're known for/what made them a household name) is affordable yet high quality pieces. Pointing to more boutique brands that sell more expensive items isn't going to help, because Vic and those makers are inherently shooting for different marketshares of the EDC community[...]

You underestimate the publicity a piece like this generates. Very valuable for a company like Vic

[...]and then a more economically priced version that ships in  a standard box[...]

No, while the box certainly adds a good junk of money, fact remains that they are made by hand and that is simply not economical in Switzerland.
Victorniox only works because they have automated their production.  It would take a large investment, you really think they could sell millions of these, because that is what it would take?
What if they upscale, but kept it manual? They would need more work-space / machinery / employees, also a larger investment. And again, probably not viable as they would never be able to sell enough.

[GearedForwards]

I don't understand the excitement about the price at all. It seems like there is a compulsion to buy this knife. It is up to you whether you want to do this or not. And none of us can really judge how much money went into the development of this knife and therefore nobody can judge whether the price is justified or not. And all those who complain - but then buy the knife after all. That's hypocritical. And an economy version for 450 instead of 500 dollars that would be the solution? Because that's probably what's left when you peel off the packaging. I think people want the knife but don't have the money. Then of course it is easier to "blame" the manufacturer for the lack of possibility of not being able to purchase the knife than to look at yourself. Ultimately, Victorinox managed to secure its existence over the long term, even through major economic crises, without having to lay off staff. Victorinox was recently named "Company of the Year" and has an excellent reputation among employees. Apparently Victorinox is doing a lot of things right. They can't do anything about the lack of money in your own wallets. But they offer enough cheaper alternatives, which according to my calculations they sometimes pay extra for, means they have a negative margin so that it is available to a large audience.

This greatly peaked my curiosity, do you honestly think this knife takes 450 to produce?

And where do you get that Vic takes a loss on the things they sell the most of? If anything what would make more sense is small margins and making money through economy of scale.

This is also very defensive of Vic in general, I'm not sure it was needed given the narrow scope of criticism. No one said it was a bad place to work, or that they paid their employees poorly. In the interest of a balanced look at what you've brought to the thread, no they haven't laid off employees at times of hardship, but that doesn't mean that they just kept on chugging with employees unaffected. In the wake of 9/11 they stopped hiring, cut all overtime, reduced shift times by 15 minutes, encouraged employees to use their vacation time, and loaned employees to other companies in the Ibach region (Source: https://www.ft.com/content/9299de8e-0e17-11e0-86e9-00144feabdc0) . All of that is better than losing your job, as someone that was left unemployed by covid, believe me, I'd have loved this response, but your knee-jerk defense of them paints an incomplete and biased picture.

Again, I hope that those that purchased this homage enjoy the knife, and that includes anyone that decided not to initially, but then decided to change their mind, regardless of any criticism they may have levelled at Vic.

We're all SAK lovers here, even if we don't always agree with each other, or the big red mothership's decisions.

[GearedForwards]

Honestly doubt that, between the costs of making it, it is financially probably barely worth. The bigger benefit is possibly advertisement. See below, but also add in planning (managment, they earn a bit more) & prototyping (by skilled laborers)
Hourly wage for production is $28 on average  in Switzerland. Didn't find the numbers for factory workers, but for office worker they say roughly double the salary to estimate cost, so for factory workers it is almost certainly higher (more expensive infrastructure and more expensive insurance)
You underestimate the publicity a piece like this generates. Very valuable for a company like Vic
No, while the box certainly adds a good junk of money, fact remains that they are made by hand and that is simply not economical in Switzerland.
Victorniox only works because they have automated their production.  It would take a large investment, you really think they could sell millions of these, because that is what it would take?
What if they upscale, but kept it manual? They would need more work-space / machinery / employees, also a larger investment. And again, probably not viable as they would never be able to sell enough.

On inflated costs - Do you seriously think that the price of this knife is near break-even for them? Looking at the CHF price minus the 7.7% VAT, it's 368.28, rounding that down to 368, that would mean that this project took them in the region of 3.6million CHF to produce and advertise a limited run of 9,999.

The materials sure as heck aren't a meaningful cost here at all. It's all R&D, labour, and advertising. If swiss factory workers are paid enough for labour to be a realistic reason for that price, either the cost of living is insane, or they are extremely well paid and I should look at emigrating there instead.

There's absolutely zero reason to think that producing a modernised version of something they already made in the past would cost anywhere near that much, even with manufacturing inefficiencies.

Hourly wage reply - You... seem to be conflating the infrastructure of the company, which supports the rest of their product line, with the cost of labour? The only real take away from this part of the reply is: we don't know how much they're paid, just assume it's a lot because Switzerland.

Publicity: As someone who's livelihood depends on a game going through significant changes to capitalise on an upcoming anniversary, no, I really don't underestimate the publicity of stuff like this. Nor is what you said particularly relevant to what you quoted.

Economy version: I don't know why people keep thinking that the cheaper packaging is the only factor here. If the justification for a large portion of the price is R&D, that is a finite initial cost. They stumped that up before they made these and just have to recoup it. The anniversary run clearly recoups that R&D cost for them, again companies are not in the business of burning money and man hours like this.

Once you strip out the R&D recoup, the price should considerably come down. We're dealing with cheap, lower-end materials that they order in massive bulk anyway.

And let's be realistic here. 10,000 units is mass production. I wouldn't be surprised if some models of EDC knife only ever see that number overall. They haven't been toiling away with hand tools for 10,000 units. They made jigs, they streamlined the process as much as was reasonable. And for as much as 'hand made!' is being thrown around on here, we watched a good portion of the assembly process in a YT video posted upthread. A custom mechanical press was used to assemble, a jig and powered tool was used to rivet them (and judging from the video, both sides of a single knife likely takes significantly less than 60 seconds.)

Hand made here us just describing the kind of factory manufacturing process that is used around the world for anything that isn't entirely automated by robots. I used to work in a trailer manufacturer pre-covid, I wouldn't call those trailers 'hand made' even though it was basically just a collection of people doing individual steps like we saw in the video.

I'm not saying they could sell it a Spartan prices and on Spartan scale. By an annual run selling for something like 100ish would make sense and still be viable. The only reason that won't happen is because they don't want to, they want to keep it as a LE collector piece that garnishes FOMO marketing with Vic nostalgia.

It's a fine business strategy and I'm sure it's made them a lot of money.

[ulli]

This greatly peaked my curiosity, do you honestly think this knife takes 450 to produce?

And where do you get that Vic takes a loss on the things they sell the most of? If anything what would make more sense is small margins and making money through economy of scale.

This is also very defensive of Vic in general, I'm not sure it was needed given the narrow scope of criticism. No one said it was a bad place to work, or that they paid their employees poorly. In the interest of a balanced look at what you've brought to the thread, no they haven't laid off employees at times of hardship, but that doesn't mean that they just kept on chugging with employees unaffected. In the wake of 9/11 they stopped hiring, cut all overtime, reduced shift times by 15 minutes, encouraged employees to use their vacation time, and loaned employees to other companies in the Ibach region (Source: https://www.ft.com/content/9299de8e-0e17-11e0-86e9-00144feabdc0) . All of that is better than losing your job, as someone that was left unemployed by covid, believe me, I'd have loved this response, but your knee-jerk defense of them paints an incomplete and biased picture.

Again, I hope that those that purchased this homage enjoy the knife, and that includes anyone that decided not to initially, but then decided to change their mind, regardless of any criticism they may have levelled at Vic.

We're all SAK lovers here, even if we don't always agree with each other, or the big red mothership's decisions.

I didn't mean that it costs 450 to make, but see that as a possible reduction in the final price by simplifying the packaging. Finally, I see absolutely no negative effect on how high the price is. Except maybe the point that it is not as attractive for speculators as with the Alox models, which they buy only to offer them again a short time later at inflated prices. nobody says: thats not correct. Why shouldn't victorinox take the margin itself, but leave it to "intermediaries"? Even if the margin for this knife - which I doubt - should be very high, this only means that other models - continue to - can be bought cheaply. So as long as the 9999 pieces can be sold - and it looks like that should be done easily  - there is a market and everything is fine. Why is no one criticizing the damst kitchen knives, which cost the same, require far fewer parts to manufacture and are much simpler to assemble?

it is quite clear that the replica 1897 is a collector's model. a spartan today is cheaper, has a lot more features, better tools, etc. so this replica is unsuitable as an edc and i also hope it doesn't become a pure investment item. although I'm sure it won't fall in value. I can therefore only recommend the purchase and see nothing negative in it. whoever has the money should buy it. i wouldn't recommend using it, not because it wouldn't work, but because there are much cheaper and better models for it, and of course it makes resale more difficult.

[Tasky]

I'm really surprised how much hate and rejection Victorinox and this replica get in this thread.

I think it's more just disappointment.
Victorinox SAKs have long been marketed (and priced) as being for people from all walks of life, all social backgrounds, at all financial levels... even ones for children!
Of course, they make some fancy or special versions of some models, which are understandably more expensive, and people are fine with that... But the Soldier and the Offiziersmesser are the two models that basically made Victorinox and many people within the SAK culture have an interest in the history.
For a company to passionately foster a culture that includes so many, it is very disheartening that they would then do something that excludes so many. .

[Farmer X]

For a company to passionately foster a culture that includes so many, it is very disheartening that they would then do something that excludes so many. .

+1. Even better, you articulated my thoughts without coming across as a grouchy old smurf.

[VICMAN]

Mine arrives tomorrow, can't wait!

   

Cool!

[charlie fox]

$500

Yeah, no.

[FolderBeholder]

She arrived! #1597

[Sneider]

@GearedForwards: Wow you seem to know everything about Victorinox, their product development and manufacturing. I was allowed to take part in a few guided tours in production and assembly, but compared to you I know almost nothing. You are right about everything. OK?

[VICMAN]

She arrived! #1597

Cool!

That is beautiful FB!

[GearedForwards]

@GearedForwards: Wow you seem to know everything about Victorinox, their product development and manufacturing. I was allowed to take part in a few guided tours in production and assembly, but compared to you I know almost nothing. You are right about everything. OK?

What a thoroughly unhelpful reply, did those guided tours include breakdowns of their R&D and staffing costs (that you can't remember to reference?)? I didn't think they did, so please, tell me how getting a tour is relevant here?

I have provided nothing but speculation and attempted to show why people are unhappy with the release pricing, my mistake was clearly thinking that confusion about something naturally wanted to understand the why of that thing.

On the other hand, defenders shutting down complaints have zero proof of anything regarding what they think the cost, reasons, and profit margins are, but that's perfectly okay and warrants no patronising reply I assume?



@FB Looks great! How does the slip feel? Looks super soft

[Farmer X]

Though I still think it carries a very hefty price tag, I must admit the presentation is world-class. And that slip! Making slips is something I intend to get going on sometime, and that fabric looks ideal. What, exactly, is it (if anyone can say for sure)?

[Fortytwo]

She arrived! #1597

Congratulations!

Though I still think it carries a very hefty price tag, I must admit the presentation is world-class. And that slip! Making slips is something I intend to get going on sometime, and that fabric looks ideal. What, exactly, is it (if anyone can say for sure)?

Can't say for sure but it seems like something like linnen canvas on some kind of backing for rigidity.

[Aloha]

We've hashed out the price beyond what we can and still have a productive conversation.  I too expressed my thoughts but we really need to move on with it please.   

At this juncture its doing more to divide than be any real conversation. 

Its a gorgeous SAK thats for sure. 

Congraats FB. 

[Sneider]

@GearedForwards: Well, how were your comments helpful? If you spend a day with engineers, managers and workers, you can see how much effort is put into it. You demand evidence from the "defenders" so why do you as an "attacker" provide nothing but speculation?

[GearedForwards]

We've hashed out the price beyond what we can and still have a productive conversation.  I too expressed my thoughts but we really need to move on with it please.   

At this juncture its doing more to divide than be any real conversation.