Higher end knife steel these days?

[Vidar]

What is your preferred knife steel these days towards the higher end? It would be for a high-end multitool knife with a drop point blade at about 75mm long, 2mm thick and 18mm wide. High flat or Scandinavian grind. (Right now considering 14C28N for various reasons). It needs to be versatile as in sharp, tough and stainless. Cost considerations is of course always also a factor.

[RF52]

14C28 would be a good steel, but I wouldn't categorize it as a high-end steel if compared to high-end dedicated knife steel.
Maybe something like s35vn, but personally I'm not that into the whole insane edge retention part. Decent edge retention with good strength and thoughness which is possible to sharpen yourself without spending several hours would be great
And if it's going in a MT it's probably best to have a steel that takes a beating if it's going out to the masses.
Just my humble opinion.

Want to share your idea or is it a secret for now?

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[Vidar]

I had some time available over Xmas, so I'm preparing to get one of the multitool models ready for a functional steel prototype. It would make sense to try some different steel options at the same time. I don't consider 14C28N high end either, but it does seem to have versatile characteristics that can take a beating as you so nicely put it.

I'm thinking some might want a high end blade option hence the question. On the high end M390 also seem well rounded, but I've got no experience with that. Thus, apart from the material itself being several times more expensive, there is also more uncertainty about increased time and cost manufacturing it. And since there are lots of others steels too, and this forum as lots of people with experience with them, so I figured a question will give valuable feedback.

One steel doesn't necessarily rule out another if they can follow along the same production steps; it is very easy to exchange the blade for another on the multitool in question.

[nate j]

CPM Magnacut seems to be latest hot steel, though I personally don’t have any knives in it yet.

I have one knife in CPM 20CV.  I’ve been impressed with it so far.

I have at least some experience with M390, S35VN, S30V, 154CM, and ATS-34.

At this point, I can’t say I’ve developed a strong preference.

You can of course Google the above and see the differences in typical hardness, toughness, wear resistance, edge retention, and corrosion resistance.

I would think a flat grind would be preferred to a scandi grind for this application, as sharpening a scandi grind would require removing more steel (if the original grind is to be maintained).

I look forward to seeing some pics if and when you’re willing to share!

[Vidar]

CPM Magnacut seems to be latest hot steel, though I personally don’t have any knives in it yet.

Thanks, I'll check it out. CPM in general seems to be more expensive around here than the Swedish steels. The later being more local might have something to do with it. I'm not giving much weight to the latest trend as such, but I wont use it against it either - if it is a suitable steel then that is great of course.

I would think a flat grind would be preferred to a scandi grind for this application, as sharpening a scandi grind would require removing more steel (if the original grind is to be maintained).

That is a good point. I guess one could always go from Scandi to flat through sharpening, but flat does make sense.

I look forward to seeing some pics if and when you’re willing to share!

I'm both wanting and willing, but the way IP protection works makes ongoing feedback and input very hard indeed. Sometimes I seriously wonder if the IP rights are worth the delays, costs and complications. Then again it is hard without too - one can't even put the development expenses in the accounting balance without. (No rights -> the company don't own it exclusively -> no value on the balance from development).

Would you happen to have some thoughts about the (straight) blade rake angle? I've been trying various versions, and somewhere between negative 3 to 5 degrees seems nice to me.

[aicolainen]

In general I would like to see more MT with replaceable utility blades. I typically carry a dedicated knife anyway.
It’s also a consideration that when the blade on a MT is past its prime, it’s basically dead weight in the MT whereas a dedicated knife can be replaced outright.

That said, 14C28 sounds like a nice, balanced choice.
If you go higher end, CPM Magnacut is a very balanced steel with more of everything.

Depending on the other materials used, I think a tool steel could be interesting unless there’s an overall design goal to keep all the parts stainless.

[Vidar]

I totally get and agree on that. The height and shape of the blades for Stanley standard utility knives are sadly rather high (making a holder higher still), and using less available utility blades just wouldn't be the same.

The model I'm prototyping now is very easy to change or replace the tools on. Including the knife. I'll also make a public specification drawing for the knife and tools so if anyone wants to make their own version, or something entire else to fit in their space, that will make it easier.

I just looked at CPM Magnacut and it does look quite well rounded. Pricing isn't too crazy either, although still a multiple of 14C28. I think it is worth a closer look.

[Aloha]

M390 is a great super high end steel.  On par with most higher end steels like CPM20CV and CTS 204P. 

M390 would be a first for a MT thats for sure.  Great all around steel with properties most would find terrific and the steels snobs would also enjoy.       

[Vidar]

I guess I should clarify that this model is fairly SAK like. The model with a plier are some steps behind with respect to manufacture/ assembly design. Still some work to be done there. (And other tools in the same concept series is also further ahead than the plier one).

Looking at knives with M390 they certainly command a price. And this does have other pricy components so maybe a fit overall.

[nate j]

M390 would be a first for a MT thats for sure.

If we’re talking about pliers-based MTs, this may be true, but there are already knife-based MTs in M390.  Examples include the MKM Malga 6, and Lionsteel Jack 2 & Jack 3.

American Service Knife uses “premium CPM powdered stainless steels”.

[Aloha]

   I was thinking more plier based tools.  Now I have to go check the ones you mention  . 

[nate j]

I'm both wanting and willing, but the way IP protection works makes ongoing feedback and input very hard indeed. Sometimes I seriously wonder if the IP rights are worth the delays, costs and complications. Then again it is hard without too - one can't even put the development expenses in the accounting balance without. (No rights -> the company don't own it exclusively -> no value on the balance from development).

Would you happen to have some thoughts about the (straight) blade rake angle? I've been trying various versions, and somewhere between negative 3 to 5 degrees seems nice to me.

Totally understand the IP issues.  Perhaps I should have said, “Looking forward to seeing the final product!”

I’m not sure I understand your question about rake angle.  To my knowledge, rake angle refers to the angle between the rake face of a cutting tool and a line perpendicular to cutting velocity.  It is of interest in the design of machine cutting tools, but not really knife blades.  Do you mean primary and or secondary bevel angle(s), or something else?

[Vidar]

If we’re talking about pliers-based MTs, this may be true, but there are already knife-based MTs in M390.  Examples include the MKM Malga 6, and Lionsteel Jack 2 & Jack 3.

American Service Knife uses “premium CPM powdered stainless steels”.

Interesting ones! I might just buy one just to experience the M390. I think it is fair to say these are more like classic SAKs and knives than mine.

[Aloha]

Just took a look at the MKM and yes its a SAK like knife.  Price point not terribly high IMO for what you get  . 

[Vidar]

Totally understand the IP issues.  Perhaps I should have said, “Looking forward to seeing the final product!”

I’m not sure I understand your question about rake angle.  To my knowledge, rake angle refers to the angle between the rake face of a cutting tool and a line perpendicular to cutting velocity.  It is of interest in the design of machine cutting tools, but not really knife blades.  Do you mean primary and or secondary bevel angle(s), or something else?

Well, I took the term from my machine cutting tools so that similarity is fair enough. Some googling later and it seems the right knife terminology is: "Negative blade rake" or "Negative blade angle".  Anyway, the concept being the angle of the blade relative to the handle. My experience is that straight knives like Mora and such have a little tendency to slide off as you cut rope or wood. A negative rake helps avoid that, and the wrist can also be more relaxed. But then there is the question of how much?

[RF52]

I had some time available over Xmas, so I'm preparing to get one of the multitool models ready for a functional steel prototype. It would make sense to try some different steel options at the same time. I don't consider 14C28N high end either, but it does seem to have versatile characteristics that can take a beating as you so nicely put it.

I'm thinking some might want a high end blade option hence the question. On the high end M390 also seem well rounded, but I've got no experience with that. Thus, apart from the material itself being several times more expensive, there is also more uncertainty about increased time and cost manufacturing it. And since there are lots of others steels too, and this forum as lots of people with experience with them, so I figured a question will give valuable feedback.

One steel doesn't necessarily rule out another if they can follow along the same production steps; it is very easy to exchange the blade for another on the multitool in question.

It also plays a role if you are doing the grinding before or after heat treat. The more abrasion resistant the steel, the harder and more time consuming it is to grind after heat treat as I understand it.

Good luck with the project and looking forward to see when you can share

[dks]

I have the odd knife in M390, though I have never bought a knife based on the steel. I generally have no clue on the steel.

[comis]

Regardless what steel it would be, I'd much prefer something like a full flat grind, than a Scandi(which might be a nightmare to sharpen if chipped) since it is for a utilitarian MT.  In terms of steel, I too would think the 14c28 should be a pretty decent choice, probably visible performance improvement over 1.4116(or Vic steel) but not as difficult to sharpen as some super steel.

[Vidar]

Point taken about the sharpening and Scandi grind - high flat grind it is then.

[nate j]

Well, I took the term from my machine cutting tools so that similarity is fair enough. Some googling later and it seems the right knife terminology is: "Negative blade rake" or "Negative blade angle".  Anyway, the concept being the angle of the blade relative to the handle. My experience is that straight knives like Mora and such have a little tendency to slide off as you cut rope or wood. A negative rake helps avoid that, and the wrist can also be more relaxed. But then there is the question of how much?

OK, angle between blade and handle…I’m tracking now.  At least for me, the expectation that the blade be in line with the handle (zero degree rake angle, as we’re calling it) is so ingrained that anything that differs significantly from that just feels awkward and uncomfortable.  And because we’re talking about a blade I hold in my hand, not one that is fixed in a machine, it is easy for me to adjust my angles of attack on a work piece on the fly to get the best results.

[Vidar]

What do you think of the angle of the Victorinox and Wenger SAK blades then? (The cutting edge on those have a slight negative blade angle).

[comis]

What do you think of the angle of the Victorinox and Wenger SAK blades then? (The cutting edge on those have a slight negative blade angle).

Being one of the most popular knife/tool on earth, I'd think it is probably a safe decision to follow.  In fact, many popular knives(such as Spyderco, Benchmade, etc) all have negative blade angles if examined closely, some are even really pronounced. 

[aicolainen]

For general purpose work knives (and outdoor) I tend to prefer a slightly negative blade angle.
How important this is depends somewhat on the overall design, and that being quite secret still, it's hard to give advice. Well, it's not really advice either, just anecdotal preference

The SAKs I use the most (Cadet and Compact) have slight negative blade angles. Which is fine. Just like I want it, but in reality I don't primarily carry these tools for their knives, so I might not have noticed much of a difference they had a neutral blade angle.

I believe most of my pliers based MTs (overwhelmingly LMs) are very close to neutral. And while they may benefit from a negative blade angle, you may run into some conservative bias. So while arguably better, it could hurt sales simply because it's a departure from what people are used to.

And let me just add, I think it's really cool to see/hear about someone from our little corner of the world venturing into this territory. Looking forward to the reveal!

[aicolainen]

I totally get and agree on that. The height and shape of the blades for Stanley standard utility knives are sadly rather high (making a holder higher still), and using less available utility blades just wouldn't be the same.

Good point. And maybe my choice of wording wasn't the best, I should probably have said "replaceable blade" instead of "utility blade", but in my head all replaceable blades are classified as utility blades.
X-acto blade holders are present in some production MTs, e.g. the fresh from the oven GOAT tool. Very small cutting edge with limited area of use, so probably best incorporated as a companion blade.
Havalon blade holders have been present on some very interesting mods I've seen, and probably the best option if you're forgoing a regular blade altogether. This would be my preference, but again something that could be a bold move and scare off both first time buyers who's looking for recognizable, safe options and the well seasoned, habitual customer.

The model I'm prototyping now is very easy to change or replace the tools on. Including the knife. I'll also make a public specification drawing for the knife and tools so if anyone wants to make their own version, or something entire else to fit in their space, that will make it easier.

I like this!

I just looked at CPM Magnacut and it does look quite well rounded. Pricing isn't too crazy either, although still a multiple of 14C28. I think it is worth a closer look.

One of the biggest selling points of magnacut is that it manages to achieve super high degree of stainlessness (comparable to LC200N) without sacrificing edge holding or toughness. Which is really quite the engineering feet on Larrins behalf. But if the rest of the tool isn't aiming for that degree of stainlessness, it becomes a less obvious choice. Unless you want to ride the Magnacut craze, which I wouldn't blame you for doing.
For an MT blade, that should be serviceable for the entire lifetime of the tool, I would prioritize toughness and edge stability, while keeping stainlessness on par with the rest of the tool. Ease of sharpening is not important to me, but something to keep in mind. You're probably aiming for the enthusiast, where exotic supersteels may be a selling point, but many regular users will have a hard time with M390 and its cousins.
The way I use MTs, 14C28 is actually a better fit than M390, and if I can get a couple of spare blades for the price difference, that really seals the deal.

[Vidar]

Being one of the most popular knife/tool on earth, I'd think it is probably a safe decision to follow.  In fact, many popular knives(such as Spyderco, Benchmade, etc) all have negative blade angles if examined closely, some are even really pronounced.

My own preference for a slight negative blade angle comes from earlier work with lots of rope cutting. You get some of the effects of a recurved blade without the more complicated grinding. From an ergonomics viewpoint the wrist can be in a bit more natural position. Apart from feeling more comfortable (to me at least), ergonomics studies from pliers shows that your grip is stronger when closer to neutral position. Which might or might not translate into knives and easier cutting.

Looking at knives, SAKs, and folders around here quite a few have a negative blade angle. A few a fair bit, many a slight angle. I like the latter - visually I suspect most people will hardly notice 3 or even 5 degrees without being told. But I like the difference it makes in practice. Many other knife designs seem to agree so I don't feel this is a very conflicted area.

[Vidar]

And let me just add, I think it's really cool to see/hear about someone from our little corner of the world venturing into this territory. Looking forward to the reveal!

Some years back I wanted to switch over to designing and manufacturing smaller tools and parts. An interesting aspect of tools is also that the large majority are very traditional, and that the tradition has largely been formed by available manufacturing technologies throughout times. Changes in manufacturing technologies and materials also mean that what was once the key guiding design criteria might be less relevant today and thus opening for higher priority to other factors. Other needs and uses have remained unsolved or just partly solved. So lot of options - new SAK and multitool concepts just being part of it.

I did this fulltime for several years. Thus there are an entire series of compact tools with new concepts at various stages of completion. Then things came to a halt during Covid, and I got an offer that was both interesting and hard to reject since this was on pause anyway. And having said yes I can't in good conscience leave that hanging now. But I push the project along when I can. And this SAKish one is the serious tool closest to series manufacture. (The small screwdrivers in the R&D section could certainly have been manufactured earlier, but they were more about exploring technology  at various levels).

I should probably have said "replaceable blade" instead of "utility blade", but in my head all replaceable blades are classified as utility blades

I have spent days trying to make utility blades fit or to be an available option. The conclusion is that while it is silly close it is also very difficult without having to make significant compromises to the overall ergonomics or function of other tools. That is a constant balance act with multi-tools of course, but utility blades demands too much in their balance for this model at least.

The other fairly universal replaceable blade option are scalpels and razor blades. Other replace blades are harder to come by, and often have proprietary connections that has IP protection and need licensing or similar complications. Many of these do have space and holders can be made, but there are more immediate concerns.

The way I use MTs, 14C28 is actually a better fit than M390, and if I can get a couple of spare blades for the price difference, that really seals the deal.

14C28 seems like the material of choice for a default blade. Then the question is what the material of a higher end option could be - M390 does look tempting, but so do others like Magnacut too. Some work to be done there by checking them out with regards to manufacture.

You're probably aiming for the enthusiast

I certainly hope the enthusiast get enthusiastic! That said I aim to make tools that are attractive due to highly functional design rather than due to using some specific material or luxury scales or the like. I prioritize functionality, and hopefully some others appreciate that.

[nate j]

My own preference for a slight negative blade angle comes from earlier work with lots of rope cutting. You get some of the effects of a recurved blade without the more complicated grinding. From an ergonomics viewpoint the wrist can be in a bit more natural position. Apart from feeling more comfortable (to me at least), ergonomics studies from pliers shows that your grip is stronger when closer to neutral position. Which might or might not translate into knives and easier cutting.

Looking at knives, SAKs, and folders around here quite a few have a negative blade angle. A few a fair bit, many a slight angle. I like the latter - visually I suspect most people will hardly notice 3 or even 5 degrees without being told. But I like the difference it makes in practice. Many other knife designs seem to agree so I don't feel this is a very conflicted area.

I agree that a slight angle isn’t an issue.  I have no problem with SAKs for instance.  As I said, I think it is when the difference is significant/pronounced that it begins to feel weird, at least to me.

[Vidar]

I agree that a slight angle isn’t an issue.  I have no problem with SAKs for instance.  As I said, I think it is when the difference is significant/pronounced that it begins to feel weird, at least to me.

It is slight, so I think most wont even notice. 

I haven't tried one with really negative blade angle. I imagine that might be good for rope cutting. (Then again, many years ago I found an overall better solution to rope cutting in volume - electric melting cutter. Cuts and secures both ends in one go. I think that one paid for itself in a day or two.)

[comis]

14C28 seems like the material of choice for a default blade. Then the question is what the material of a higher end option could be - M390 does look tempting, but so do others like Magnacut too. Some work to be done there by checking them out with regards to manufacture.

I certainly hope the enthusiast get enthusiastic! That said I aim to make tools that are attractive due to highly functional design rather than due to using some specific material or luxury scales or the like. I prioritize functionality, and hopefully some others appreciate that.

For SAKish product that features "high-end steel", I would humbly suggest to take a look at the American service knife made by Medford.  I think their premise was to make a SAKish product with higher end steel, changeable tools and overall beefier spec; and their target audience seems to be the knife enthusiasts.

I think it's nice to see a maker take the bold step to make it happen, but at the same time, I wonder how the market would react to it.  The Jefferson model is essential the most basic SAK model(such as Spartan, but with less functions), but it is literally 7-8 times the price. 

For whatever reason, I sense that the targeted consumers for high end knife vs multitool/SAK consumers may not overlap too much.  I know many have talked about upgraded steel for SAK in the past, but in reality, most SAK buyers are content with the current Vic offerings, and only a very small fraction of them are willing to pay the premium to get the upgrades.

[aicolainen]

For SAKish product that features "high-end steel", I would humbly suggest to take a look at the American service knife made by Medford.  I think their premise was to make a SAKish product with higher end steel, changeable tools and overall beefier spec; and their target audience seems to be the knife enthusiasts.

I think it's nice to see a maker take the bold step to make it happen, but at the same time, I wonder how the market would react to it.  The Jefferson model is essential the most basic SAK model(such as Spartan, but with less functions), but it is literally 7-8 times the price. 

For whatever reason, I sense that the targeted consumers for high end knife vs multitool/SAK consumers may not overlap too much.  I know many have talked about upgraded steel for SAK in the past, but in reality, most SAK buyers are content with the current Vic offerings, and only a very small fraction of them are willing to pay the premium to get the upgrades.

It's hard to know what people want. Seeing how my own preferences skew over time, it's safe to say I hardly know what I want myself.
But I know this. Neither any of the available SAKs or the Medford ASKs hits the mark for me. But it's much easier to spend around $30-40 on something that isn't quite what you want, than shelling out $240 + shipping and import fees for something that might be even less right (for me).
Further, the pricetag on most SAKs make them a much more compelling alternative as something you can throw around and abuse, and/or a plattform to dabble with modding.

I like what Medford is doing with the ASK, he's adding some of the ingredients SAKs we sometimes miss in our SAKs, but in true Medford style he's overdoing it. To beefy. Too specialized and too pricey.
Something in between, that leans more toward SAKs with regads to "beefyness" and tool density, but with better steels and a more modern tool selection would be a welcome addition.