Sheffield, England knife steel mystery resolved

[AimlessWanderer]

jerseydevil (Tom) PM'd me to ask about details of a Taylors Eye Witness knife he got from Neil, and he asked the unanswerable ... what steel is it? I didn't have the foggiest, everytime you see one listed anywhere it's "stainless" or "carbon steel" - so I thought I'd chuck in a phone call and see if they'd reveal what it is they actually use ... and they did 

I PM'd Tom with the answer, but then thought I'd chuck it out here anyway for future reference for anyone interested 
 
I managed to speak to one of the managers there, who was very helpful indeed. The mystery blade steel is in fact 420HC (0.45-0.55% C) treated to 54/55HRc " ... to give you a reasonable edge retention but retain the toughness so they don't break or chip on you ...". He was quite quick to point out these were "working knives", and that much of their target audience for pocket knives is agricultural workers and the like. It seems the mentality here is still indifferent about highly complex knife steels and the associated difficulties in treating them. They just want to make and sell you a good honest hard working knife that will do the job, be reliable in long term service and easy to maintain.

Just my kind of knife 

He also added that their Premium Line was indeed exactly the same, the difference in price being the exotic scale materials and the time taken in achieving a higher standard of fit and finish, and indeed decoration on the fileworking items.

Note: This is just one company, and obviously doesn't reflect all the local cutlers here - but being a Sheffield lad and having a mate who worked in the industry years ago, I'm VERY confident that if that's what one of them is doing the majority will be doing something very similar  Taylor's don't do the carbon steel blades these days, so they were unable to offer any insight on that - but I can do more sniffing with other companies if necessary

Many thanks to Taylors for taking the time to talk to me 

[jerseydevil]

Thanks for that, Al!  I'm not a steel snob, but I was curious as to the answer. And I couldn't find it ANYWHERE.   It is good, solid work knife that sharpens easily and keeps a decent edge. Good of you to make a call, and nice of them to give you an actual answer, not some vague, "Uhhh......" .

[Zed]

Very interesting Al and very nice of you too take the time to check it out for Tom, ive only one taylor knife that tony sent me last year,its really well made ,i love there Barlows they do but a bit out of my price range, you live in a very interesting place mate with lots of history   

[Craig]

Great info. Thanks Al.

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks for that, Al!  I'm not a steel snob, but I was curious as to the answer. And I couldn't find it ANYWHERE.   It is good, solid work knife that sharpens easily and keeps a decent edge. Good of you to make a call, and nice of them to give you an actual answer, not some vague, "Uhhh......" .

I did discuss that too, and he sounded quite proud that it only takes " ... a couple of minutes on an oil stone ..." to get it back sharp. I actually mentioned that I steel mine, and he answered " ... yes, steeling will work, but it will still need to visit an oil stone occasionally ..." Hints that I might know a little about the subject might not have all hit home  but good of him to ensure I wasn't totally misguided 

Glad I could be of help Tom

Very interesting Al and very nice of you too take the time to check it out for Tom, ive only one taylor knife that tony sent me last year,its really well made ,i love there Barlows they do but a bit out of my price range, you live in a very interesting place mate with lots of history  

It's a shame the future doesn't look so phenomenal as the history  There's certainly life in the old dog yet, but it's definitely a shadow of it's former self in many respects. They still have a fan here though - I like the simplistic approach to tools. You can either have something that works, or something that works and looks nice  The Premier lines are not exactly a monthly purchase for me either but there's plenty of cheap honest users ... just don't expect the same level of finesse

[Gareth]

Well I've certainly learned something new, excellent bit of info mate.  

[Neil]

Good work Al     Another little mystery solved.

[J-sews]

That's really great that the fellow took time out to answer your questions.

[AimlessWanderer]

Absolutely, and it wasn't just "420HC - now sod off, I'm busy" 

[MultiMat]

Nice one Al  .

Guys in the UK if they are good keep buying em  , I have a few Taylor's Eyes  ,
Taylor's Eye Witness is a bit of a odd name for a knife company though  , poms are a eccentric bunch though 
It is so sad when historically significant manufacturing company get closed down & or relocated to a cheaper labour source .

[AimlessWanderer]

We're holding out so far mate   

We've still got John Nowill/Jack Adams which has been going a few centuries, Taylor Eye Witness, Eggington Group (Wostenholm, Rodgers, Ibberson and Eggington), Arthur Wrights, Samuel Staniforths (who do a lot of "celebrity" knives such as Lofty Wiseman, Chris Caine, Geoff Todd, Mel Parry etc), plus a few smaller manufacturers too such as Stuart Mitchell, Reg Cooper, Trevor Ablett, Stan Shaw. The tableware side of things is done by other companies as well. Many have gone by the wayside or been swallowed up by overseas companies, but even then some of the manufacturing still remains to ensure the "Made In Sheffield" stamp

I'm embarrassed to say, I've only got knives from four of the above so far though 

[Mike]

For some reference. Buck lists in it's FAQ's that their 420HC tests out at a range of Rc 58-61. Someone on another forum tested three of his Bucks and they were at Rc 59.

Mike

[AimlessWanderer]

Nice one Mike 

Yeah, you can certainly push the hardness above 54/55HRc, but these guys tend to prefer toughness and ease of sharpening for guys working out in the fields, which I can understand really. It seems they stick to that hardness for the big survival knives too which makes sense (impact work), and the bushcraft knives tend to be 58-60 which is probably to fall in line with general market requirements for those products.

I've also discovered that A Wrights are using C70 and 01 for their carbon steel folders too. Like most companies round here they just don't tend to wave the grades under peoples noses. I guess most people buying them aren't bothered what they're made of as long as they work 

Reasuring to know there's some good stuff being used though

[Mike]

I agree, an RC of 54/55 is a good solid performer. I really like well done 440C, 420HC, 1095 carbon steel, 12C27 Sandvik, AUS8, etc.  They make great working knives, the ones with good heat treats and material are tough, abrasion resistant, hold decent edges and are easy to bring back quickly.

It's frustrating to read the many web sites that have lots of information on steels only to see how they sometimes poo-poo these types of steels. I understand they are generalizing, but it's not exactly fair to the knife makers and manufacturers that do a great job with these steels.

You just don't have to spend a ton of money for a great knife that will last a life time.

Mike

[AimlessWanderer]

I honestly prefer them to the exotic stuff. Less fear of chipping out, and less hours spent trying to get back that edge that it came from the factory with. The steels you listed are way better than what was available to people before us, people who probably needed a knife more than we do today and who managed very well.

There's a lot of overcomplication in order to get a slice of people's pay cheques. Supersteels bumping up the cost and alleged performance to make a more desirable knife ... but I'd rather use the cheap stuff. I'm a lot happier with my Byrd Tern in my pocket than my UKPK, and I'm very happy with one of these local folders or a SAK too.

My first decent folder was a local one, and it's now over 20 years old. Cheap carbon steel sheepsfoot blade, plastic scales and brass bolsters - nothing special in the slightest - still going strong and still makes it into daily carry occasionally. I'm pretty sure it would outlive me easily

[AimlessWanderer]

There have been some more developments, which might as well go in this thread.

The previous events whetted my appetite a little and I started doing a little more window shopping on local goodies. Most of my shiny sharp things are from far off lands, and I too had for the most part walked away from when Sheffield may or may not have had to offer. I decided it was time to start thinking about chucking a few more pennies to the guys who for all I know might be sat at the other end of the pub of an evening. Not having any spare time during the day, this meant some online hunting was in order.

So far most of what I’ve bought as regards local knives has been pocketknives, with the exception of the knives I got for the Big Knife Passaround (when I got a MOD knife for me too  ).  I'd recently stumbled across a site which intrigued me with some big “hacking tackle”. It mentioned the Chris Caine Survival Tool which sounded like it was worth a look, not knowing at that time it was a locally produced item. Initial thought’s were “Yup, big overpriced parang” that some survival expert I’d never heard of had slapped his name on ...  then I saw where it was made ... right here  ... and decided to follow the trail.



The idea of having a big honking Sheffield made knife produced under development with a survival guru quite intrigued me, but the price however did not. We are talking SERIOUS money as far as I’m concerned ... but I kept trudging through the info just the same. It turned out that the manufacturer in question (Samuel Staniforths) is also producing knives for a range of other individuals including Lofty Wiseman and Geoff Todd. Further digging uncovered Turkish swords and Khukris nestling amongst the ubiquitous Bowies and sheath knives. I didn’t know any of this was being produced around here – and this was only a few weeks ago 

The next step was to find out what people thought about them. Yes I have pride in my local heritage – but that isn’t going to tease that kind of money away from me, and to be honest I was more than a little sceptical about what the feedback might be  Mixed results came back, some feedback saying how wonderful it was, others a little more tepid (usual internet response to anything  ) and a couple of dramatic failures. 

One guy had had one of these completely shear on him, got a free of charge replacement and that had done the exact same thing  This wasn’t consistent with the video HERE which showed this being used to hack a very hefty oak trunk in two. Those of us who met up at last year’s UK meet, will remember spending a LONG time trying to do something similar with full sized axes and resorting to breaking out the wood grenade to get the job done. The log in the video also sounds much harder than we were fighting!

I was really impressed with what I’d seen on the video, and in theory it looked like an excellent bit of kit, but the two catastrophic failures got me wondering how consistent the manufacturing quality is on these. A little more snooping also uncovered a couple of different blade grinds on different websites  The plot thickened. I decided it was time to flaunt my Yorkshire accent again. I found a bit of spare time at work and threw in a phone call to see if anyone would talk to me ...

... and they did! 

I didn’t go for the jugular straight away, but started querying the fact I’d seen two different grind styles and wondering which was the current style. The answer came back that another Sheffield manufacturer had been producing these originally and it might be theirs that I’d seen. I directed him to the relevant website and he confirmed that was the case. Time to start poking!!

I told him the reson I was asking is that I’d read about some total failures of these items in use, and his tone changed. “Ah, yes” came the reply. I followed up by saying that their grinds looked more susceptible to failure, and being a Sheffield lad I’d like to buy local but was very disheartened about the way these has completely failed under “normal” use. Let's see if he could get out of that without moving!

... and he did! 

He explained that there had been three failures of this item, two of which were to the same customer. As soon as they received back the first failed item they had sent it off for independent analysis at the Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association in Sheffield ... which I never even knew existed!  They did a full defect analysis on it and declared it a bad heat treatment. By this time I believe knife number two had already separated itself from it’s handle. All knives in that batch were recalled with only one other slipping the net. That too failed in service. I continued to have a little poke and prod about the design to which his reply was “All I can say is that we’ve not had another one fail on us since”. Only three knives failed and the details were recalled and disclosed to me immediately - that's impressive 

Then he went further.  Referring to my earlier comments he asked just how local I was, and when I told him he perked up and said “Well why don’t you come round?”  I was not only given an invitation to go visit the factory, but also play with the knives in question, inspect the initial failed knife which “is probably still kicking around here somewhere”, and also view for myself the independent lab results carried out on the defective batch. Remember I just phoned up as a potential customer - a normal man on the street - and asked the right questions (and maybe had the right accent  ).

This knocked me for six, and I’ll definitely be taking them up on this offer as soon as possible.



Two phone calls ago I had been harbouring a strong but hurt pride for my City’s history and what we used to be produce. We led the world in both steels and in cutlery, and part of me hankered after what once was. Along with this was a deserate hope there was still a shadow of that greatness left.

Now however, I can see why these companies still exist! Two phone calls, two companies, pride of manufacture and the humble and honest confidence in their products. No desires to chase the tails of companies with fancy steels and intricate designs – just a “when we build something it works” attitude. This is why companies can be around for 150 years and offer lifetime warranties. One line on their Scorpion Knives website states ..

Lincoln got elected for his second term the year we started to make knives

 I get the feeling they're after the American market 

My pride has had a massive boost, coupled with a strong feeling of embarrassment. I can leave my front door and within a quarter of an hour be at a factory that’s making Khukris, swords, parangs, boot knives ... and up until 6 or 8 weeks ago, I never even knew they existed!  Sure I’d heard of their Smithfield brand of kitchen knives, but never put this together with Lofty Wiseman’s chopper (if you’ll pardon the expression)

  didn't realise how much I'd written - sorry guys

Bottom line is I'll be going over to see these guys and handle one of these knives as soon as I can get a window at work, and I'm pretty confident that local companies will be seeing a little more of my hard earned cash from now on. Fingers crossed - if I don't hack them off in the meantime - I'll have some more news at a later date

[Gareth]

I have to admit I'd never heard of Scorpion knives myself, but they do look good.  I'll be very interested to hear how the visit goes.

[Farmman]

Nice one mate. Bit overkill for chopping spuds though! Pricy too.  However if you need someone to carry your bag on you visit, you know where I am.

[Mike]

50ft-trad,

First .... that was outstanding, simply outstanding! Thank you for sharing that! 

Please keep us up dated on your experience and findings. Pictures of the people you meet, their products, and the factory would be great too.

Again, thank you for the time and your write up.
Mike

[Smitty44]

Great update,keep us posted.

[AimlessWanderer]

Thanks guys  Here's the video that convinced me I need to know more about these



I can't believe they went for a paper cutting/arm shaving test after this  You can tell by the sound that is one HARD chunk of timber. Watch for the bit where he nearly sticks it through his leg 

I'm not sure when I'll be able to get there, but I'll keep you informed 

[AimlessWanderer]

Well slap me with a wet fish!!!

A little more google-fu, and it turns out the bloke I spoke to, who invited me over to see the items in question .... owns the company 

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=505

[dks]

Well slap me with a wet fish!!!

A little more google-fu, and it turns out the bloke I spoke to, who invited me over to see the items in question .... owns the company 

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=505

That is equal to meeting Tim Leatherman!  You are going up in the world. 

From the link they look like a decent size company, with a traditional looking workshop.

[Sparky415]

Nice one mate. Bit overkill for chopping spuds though! Pricy too.  However if you need someone to carry your bag on you visit, you know where I am.

+1 

[MultiMat]

That is a great story Al  .
Tony's going to get you to go through their skip when you do visit though , looking for some 'salvageable' materials  .

2012 I would love a custom Raker knife & then a Aussie made custom knife , Al sounds like you are going to hit your Sheffield quota very early in the year 

[AimlessWanderer]

I can certainly vouch for the Raker knives mate  Top bit of kit 
Any links to the Aussie maker/s mate?

If I can get a couple or three nice Sheffield knives, or maybe even one and a new set of kitchen knives over the course of this year I'll be very happy. Till next year that is, then I'll probably want more 

[MultiMat]

Al I have had a look at the Australian Knifemakers Guild website & seen some loverly looking knives.
Here is the photo page link http://www.akg.org.au/members/photos
The AKG site is not very user friendly + I think most knife makers are better at making knives than conveying their expertise via a website  . I am going to do a fair bit of research before I pay my $ for a Aussie made knife 

[AimlessWanderer]

Cheers Mat, I'll have a shufty through that lot later 

I think buying a custom knife can be quite tricky unless you're using them all all the time. Difficult to decide what you want. It's so much easier to look at completed stuff and say "I want one of them!" 

[turnsouth]

Well slap me with a wet fish!!!

A little more google-fu, and it turns out the bloke I spoke to, who invited me over to see the items in question .... owns the company 

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=505

It's always fun to see a collector get excited with a new find 

[AimlessWanderer]

Well slap me with a wet fish!!!

A little more google-fu, and it turns out the bloke I spoke to, who invited me over to see the items in question .... owns the company 

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=505

It's always fun to see a collector get excited with a new find 

Don't you start  I've got enough with dks on my case 

To be honest that's actually the reason I've got quite excited about this. The bowies that are quite frequent over here are not the type of thing I'd use - so I've never bought one. I have got a very nice stag and brass Muela bowie, and that's still sitting in a box awaiting a good reason to be put to work - and even when there is a good reason, there's usually a better tool.

This thing would get some hard use from me though, and may even prove to be a companion or even second option to my "Granny B" Wildlife Hatchet. I'm really pleased I have the chance to look at the different variations of this before committing to one. There is a military black coated one, a standard version and a walnut handled super dooper sexy special edition version. There is also an 8" blade version as well as the 13" blade, which they call the companion tool (not listed here for some reason)

http://www.s-staniforth.co.uk/range/11/Chris_Caine
This is their other website which overviews a broader spectrum of what Staniforths offer, but with less detail in each category

It's all Sparky415's fault anyway. He took his homegrown "lofty" knife to the UKbmeet, which was better suited for some tasks than some of the gear I'd taken, and it made me rethink my opinion about axes being "superior" to the big knife philosophy