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SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives 2233

Full Member Posts: 208
SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« on: December 02, 2018, 08:49:53 PM »
Did just a comparison of the soldier and officer knives evolution. The well known one is not that accurate (my opinion). For the officer knives, only the big changes are listed.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 09:07:45 PM by ulli »
No Life Club Posts: 1,262
Re: SAK Evolution: Sodier and Officer Knives
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2018, 09:00:47 PM »
Interesting, thanks.

- Steve
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Re: SAK Evolution: Sodier and Officer Knives
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2018, 09:01:58 PM »
Thanks Ulli, nicely done  :salute:

Formerly known as MTMatt
No Life Club Posts: 1,698
SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 09:06:14 PM »
There's a little typo in the title…

Edit: And it's edited. :tu:
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 09:10:10 PM by Serena »
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,392
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 09:24:43 PM »
Did you make this Ulli ?  ???

It's great - Thanks:tu: - Like you say, More accurate than some others that are around.
Eg the rivets going inside in 57 not 61

I must check against the Wiki and this dating spreadsheet
One small point -
Last entry on the Officers side - 73 was when the clip point was replaced by the drop point - Not when it appeared - Right?   -  ???
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 10:14:39 AM by Huntsman »
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,287
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 09:36:21 PM »
Smurf!!

That confirms my Officer's to be from before 1902!! :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh

It has the Elsener stamp on the driver :ahhh

Buy now or regret later
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,287
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2018, 09:37:52 PM »
Thank you sooo much...

Buy now or regret later
Full Member Posts: 208
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2018, 10:19:15 PM »
Smurf!!

That confirms my Officer's to be from before 1902!! :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh

It has the Elsener stamp on the driver :ahhh

Do you have a close foto of the stamp? Is it just "elsener", or "gesetzlich geschützt" or "armee suisse"?

They used "gesetzlich geschützt" from the beginning untill the patent expired, like they did with the "+pat" stamp.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,287
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2018, 10:30:32 PM »
Give me a few minutes...

Buy now or regret later
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,287
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2018, 10:31:59 PM »
ELSENER
SCHWYZ

Buy now or regret later
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,048
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 01:28:51 AM »
Thank you ulli!  I had wondered in this thread I started if there should be a distinction between #5 and #6 of the Officer's knife.  :hatsoff:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,70382.msg1415482.html#msg1415482
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,490
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 01:56:23 AM »
Nice  :like:
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,392
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 02:50:15 AM »
Added to the main SAK identification thread:

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75774.msg1630522.html#msg1630522

Thanks Ulli 
Full Member Posts: 207
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 05:08:30 AM »
This is very interesting Ulli. Many thanks for doing it!  :salute:  :like:

I am puzzled by a few things in the current version.

1) If Victorinox really moved to three visible rivets in 1909, then how do we explain the existence of stainless steel SAKs with four visible rivets? Such a SAK can be seen in the following image:

The image is from this post by JAZZBASS, where he suggests that the change to three visible rivets occurred a bit later.

2) I think that early stainless steel Victorinox offiziermessers from around 1923 had the older screw driver without a cap-lifter. In fact, I tend to believe that Victorinox introduced the cap-lifter only in the 1930's (probably mid-1930's). This is because stainless steel SAKs with the older screw driver seem to be relatively common and to make up the vast majority of the SAKs with a slanted JNOXYD tang stamp (j2 stamp in your table). Moreover, this is also suggested in this post by JAZZBASS as well as by some other sources.

3) The change to a 4-loop corkscrew took place around 1973-74.

4) There seems to be a problem with the years assigned to the last two model 1961 alox knives. If I remember correctly, the introduction of the red shield took place in 1977 or 1978, the WK stamp was removed in 1988 or 1989 and the hollow rivet was removed around 1993.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 05:15:03 AM by MiniChamp »
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,143
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 06:10:35 AM »
This is very interesting Ulli. Many thanks for doing it!  :salute:  :like:

I am puzzled by a few things in the current version.

1) If Victorinox really moved to three visible rivets in 1909, then how do we explain the existence of stainless steel SAKs with four visible rivets? Such a SAK can be seen in the following image:
(Image removed from quote.)
The image is from this post by JAZZBASS, where he suggests that the change to three visible rivets occurred a bit later.

2) I think that early stainless steel Victorinox offiziermessers from around 1923 had the older screw driver without a cap-lifter. In fact, I tend to believe that Victorinox introduced the cap-lifter only in the 1930's (probably mid-1930's). This is because stainless steel SAKs with the older screw driver seem to be relatively common and to make up the vast majority of the SAKs with a slanted JNOXYD tang stamp (j2 stamp in your table). Moreover, this is also suggested in this post by JAZZBASS as well as by some other sources.
) The change to a 4-loop corkscrew took place around 1973-74.

4) There seems to be a problem with the years assigned to the last two model 1961 alox knives. If I remember correctly, the introduction of the red shield took place in 1977 or 1978, the WK stamp was removed in 1988 or 1989 and the hollow rivet was removed around 1993
.

 :iagree:


« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 06:11:54 AM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Hero Member Posts: 729
SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 08:22:25 AM »
Nice idea Ulli! It definitely should be done.
I'm agree with MiniChamp we need more evidences for bottle opener dating, here's probably 1931 knife:

One more with jnoxyd stamp (late 1920s ?):


It looks like they introduced shield on soldiers in 1977:


And of course 4 turns corckscrew started c.1973.
What about soldiers, first mod.1961 Soldier knives by Victorinox has 62 on the blade (Wenger has 63).
Maybe need to add Grilon version by Wenger (1957-1964) too?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 08:43:03 AM by jnoxyd »
Full Member Posts: 208
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 09:08:36 AM »
Whow, I`m happy about that many replies. I will change the system when I`m at home and check my references. I will change the title too to "spartan evolution". Its not ab out wenger and not about other models than the spartan.
No Life Club Posts: 1,341
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2018, 09:29:46 AM »
 :popcorn:
Hero Member Posts: 671
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2018, 10:15:31 AM »
Great work, ulli, even if it's open to revision.  :cheers:

Some model names have changed over the years. I believe that when names were introduced, the Spartan was called the Camper. How about Victorinox returning its name to Officer's Knife to reflect its lineage and give it the distinction it deserves?  :salute: 

Rambler
Hero Member Posts: 729
SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 01:51:25 PM »
We all like bails. They made knives with bail till 1968


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Full Member Posts: 208
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2018, 07:43:07 PM »
Ok so here a new one, hopefully with less mistakes :-)

This is very interesting Ulli. Many thanks for doing it!  :salute:  :like:

I am puzzled by a few things in the current version.

1) If Victorinox really moved to three visible rivets in 1909, then how do we explain the existence of stainless steel SAKs with four visible rivets? Such a SAK can be seen in the following image:
(Image removed from quote.)
The image is from this post by JAZZBASS, where he suggests that the change to three visible rivets occurred a bit later.

2) I think that early stainless steel Victorinox offiziermessers from around 1923 had the older screw driver without a cap-lifter. In fact, I tend to believe that Victorinox introduced the cap-lifter only in the 1930's (probably mid-1930's). This is because stainless steel SAKs with the older screw driver seem to be relatively common and to make up the vast majority of the SAKs with a slanted JNOXYD tang stamp (j2 stamp in your table). Moreover, this is also suggested in this post by JAZZBASS as well as by some other sources.

3) The change to a 4-loop corkscrew took place around 1973-74.

4) There seems to be a problem with the years assigned to the last two model 1961 alox knives. If I remember correctly, the introduction of the red shield took place in 1977 or 1978, the WK stamp was removed in 1988 or 1989 and the hollow rivet was removed around 1993.


1: I`m absolutely sure, that there are no "original" 4 rivet stainless steel officer knives, even if they appear sometimes, but are not very common. More obvious those are knives assembled by small knife makers, or somebody changed some tools/scales.
For the rivets: there are also 1897 knives with 3 rivets. When they used mop scales, they always put the pin for the backspring under the scales. You can see that on any vintage victorinox knives, for example on old accountants.
The date 1909 for the cross appearance is not really true. At 1909, they just registered the shield/cross as a trademark, but they used them earlier as well as 1909.

2: I m not sure about that. In old cataloges, you find pictures with officer knives WITH and WITHOUT the screwdriver with the caplifter. I think they used both version for a time period, and later focused on the one with the cap lifter.

3: true

4: true

« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 09:18:41 PM by ulli »
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 3,392
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 10:39:37 PM »
Thanks for the new version Ulli
Great stuff

And this point ? ??? ..:...
One small point -
Last entry on the Officers side - 73 was when the clip point blade was replaced by the drop point - Not when it appeared - Right?   -  ???
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 10:41:42 PM by Huntsman »
Full Member Posts: 207
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2018, 11:07:55 PM »
Ok so here a new one, hopefully with less mistakes :-)
Great!  :tu:
Quote
1: I`m absolutely sure, that there are no "original" 4 rivet stainless steel officer knives, even if they appear sometimes, but are not very common. More obvious those are knives assembled by small knife makers, or somebody changed some tools/scales.
For the rivets: there are also 1897 knives with 3 rivets. When they used mop scales, they always put the pin for the backspring under the scales. You can see that on any vintage victorinox knives, for example on old accountants.
This is very interesting. Thanks a lot for the information.  :hatsoff:
Quote
The date 1909 for the cross appearance is not really true. At 1909, they just registered the shield/cross as a trademark, but they used them earlier as well as 1909.
Indeed, the 1903 catalog mentions the possibility of adding the cross to fiber scales as an option that costs 0.35 Franks, but I suspect that there may have been a point in time beyond which ALL of the officer's knives with fiber scales were produced with the cross. (This is unlike Wenger that produced some officer's knives with blank fiber scales for a long time; possibly until around 1950.) Is it true that there was such a point in time? If so, was it 1909? Later?
Quote
2: I m not sure about that. In old cataloges, you find pictures with officer knives WITH and WITHOUT the screwdriver with the caplifter. I think they used both version for a time period, and later focused on the one with the cap lifter.
I'm familiar with the 1903 catalog and with the 1942 catalog, but I never saw a Victorinox catalog from any time in between them. It sounds like you may have access to such catalogs. Do you? If so, can you make copies of them somehow available? This will be very exciting.

One more dating question: When was the groove in the corkscrew introduced? This is somewhat relevant here because it looks like the model 1909 SAK in the picture has a grooved corkscrew.

Anyway, the new version seems to be getting close to perfect, but there are still a few minor issues:

1) The "new can opener" in the description of the fifth officer's knife seems to be a typo. It should probably be "cap lifter" or "bottle opener."

2) It looks like the images of the 1977 and 1988 soldier knives should be interchanged.

3) Since the main point of the 1968 change was replacing the bail with the keyring, I think that it may be better to replace the image of the 11th officer's knife with one that has a keyring and to change the corresponding description to: "1968: keyring replaces bail."

Hero Member Posts: 729
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2018, 07:32:18 AM »
Well done Ulli! Thank you sir  :hatsoff:
P.S. Add please something like  "made by Ulli", I'm sure a lot of guys will share this cool picture everywhere
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:35:50 AM by jnoxyd »
Full Member Posts: 208
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2018, 11:32:43 AM »
Indeed, the 1903 catalog mentions the possibility of adding the cross to fiber scales as an option that costs 0.35 Franks, but I suspect that there may have been a point in time beyond which ALL of the officer's knives with fiber scales were produced with the cross. (This is unlike Wenger that produced some officer's knives with blank fiber scales for a long time; possibly until around 1950.) Is it true that there was such a point in time? If so, was it 1909? Later?

Still some mistakes :-) I will change them soon.

Just one thing: from the online 1903 catalog are only the first 4 pages from 1903, the other pages are from a different, later catalog (aprox. 1913). It would be better to make 2 documents out of it, one with 1903, the other with the later date, just to prevent further mistakes/misinterpretations.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 11:33:52 AM by ulli »
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,892 Yoo-hoo, big summer blowout!
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 11:47:00 AM »
We all like bails. They made knives with bail till 1968(Image removed from quote.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
$8 for a Spartan in 1968?
That’s nearly $60 today!

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Full Member Posts: 207
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2018, 03:04:11 PM »
Just one thing: from the online 1903 catalog are only the first 4 pages from 1903, the other pages are from a different, later catalog (aprox. 1913). It would be better to make 2 documents out of it, one with 1903, the other with the later date, just to prevent further mistakes/misinterpretations.
Really?!?!  :o  Are we talking about this document? It seems to be an extraction of pages A7-A13 from the Victorinox document "Everything you need to know about Multi-tools and cutlery." These pages are also a copy of pages 130-136 from the Victorinox 1984 book "The Knife and its History." Are you saying that Victorinox mixed different catalogs in this compilation? If so, how can you tell this? Also, since the last three pages are the ones showing pocket knives, how does it fit together for them to be from around 1913 along with moving to only three visible rivets in 1909 (all of the shown officer's knives have 4 visible rivets)?

« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 03:07:41 PM by MiniChamp »
Full Member Posts: 208
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2018, 03:49:45 PM »
Yes, its exactly that document. On the corner in the left you see the marking 1903/09.

Its a bit complicated with catalogs. They used them for a couple of years without changing pictures/drawings. They just changed the prices or crossed out the knives no longer produced. For them, a 3 rivet or 4 rivet Model 205 is the same; same tool configuration, same size. No need to make a new catalog. I think the costs for new catalog, to make new drawings, was too expensive to make it every couple of years. The 1942 catalog for example was used for decades.

So if you see a knife in an old victorinox catalog, the only thing you can say about is: the start of the production of this model can`t be later than the year of the catalog.
In this "1903" catalog, you see those Victoria razors. The brand Victoria - and about that I`m sure - was not used before 1909. So the only thing you can say about this catalog: it can`t be a catalog from 1903 :-).

So catalogs are not a super reference to date a knife. Some of the knives shown were never produced :-) Better are advertising knives with a year marking.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 03:52:45 PM by ulli »
Full Member Posts: 207
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2018, 04:39:25 PM »
In this "1903" catalog, you see those Victoria razors. The brand Victoria - and about that I`m sure - was not used before 1909. So the only thing you can say about this catalog: it can`t be a catalog from 1903 :-).
Wow! You are right. This Victoria thing never occurred to me before. Now I noticed that the word "VICTORIA" also appears on the blade of the Studentenmesser (but one needs to look at a high resolution version to see it). Thanks a lot for this explanation!  :hatsoff: I guess maybe we should start calling this compilation "Early 20th Century Catalog" or something similar.  :dunno:

Full Member Posts: 208
Re: SAK Evolution: Soldier and Officer Knives
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2018, 07:23:27 PM »
So here is the latest version.

For me its no problem at all to edit those files. But better would be to delete old stuff/versions, what I cant (or don`t know how). Its the same with the tang stamp compilation and other sheets. For me, those are dynamic processes. Like Derek Jackson did this first sheet of officer and soldier knives, I`m sure he was absolutely convinced that those dates and changes were correct. But as time goes by, you get to know more things and could clarify those compilations, what is good!. The problem is: on the web there are many old sheets. Some people use them, other take them from those people and so on. After a while, you have the problem that there are many incorrect/old reverences on the web. So always make sure, you get to know the "original" link or the correct producer of that stuff.


Grooved Corkscrew: I checked most of my knives. I couldn`t finde any 4 rivet knife with a grooved corkscrew, and no 3 rivet knife model 1909 with a non grooved corkscrew. So I would date the change to 1909. Maybe someone has more info on that?

 

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