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Paying a premium for 1095? 1194

No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 04:22:51 PM »

There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.


I suspect we're talking about this guy. Personally, as a part-time knife maker, I really appreciate his contribution to the knowledge base. Though it doesn't bother me, but I do wish he could get out his message without getting a bug up the smurf of people like you.

The point I'm trying to make is you need to differentiate between custom and production knives.  Steve has joked that Spyderco will send a hitman after him, and as a sprintrun owner I'm not exactly happy to find out they're not getting the most all the steel they use.

Knowing that 12C27 with a good heat treat can play with the big boys makes me so happy, because I just finished two knives and I have a whole sheet of 14C28n left, and a digital kiln to get the most out of it.


So, is 3V a potentially better steel than 1095?
Yes.
Are you sure that 3V you are paying a premium for is heat treated to maximize it's capabilities?
If not, you could do just as well, or better with 1095.

Go check how cheap knife steel is, it's all about labour, material costs come into the picture once you start using Damasteel, even here in deepest darkest africa I can get M390 for the same price as 14C28n, which is about double the price of same size stock D2 or N690

“getting a bug up the smurf of people like you.”
It takes more him to get a bug up my smurf.  :D I just question his methods.

“Knowing that 12C27 with a good heat treat can play with the big boys”
Who are the big boys you are talking about and in what category? Edge retention, wear resistance or toughness? 12C27 is a low carbide (.60) steel, it could run with AUS-8 in edge retention, if the AUS-8 had a bad heat treat. It may be tougher than CPM S90V. It isn't going to run with 154CM, much less one of the newer high carbide, high vanadium steels in edge retention.

I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20°  micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.

“Are you sure that 3V you are paying a premium for is heat treated to maximize it's capabilities?”
I don't consider Crucible's 3V a premium steel so I wouldn't pay a premium for it, regardless of heat treat.
I am sure about what I'm getting before I buy.
If the manufacturer doesn't advertise the steel and heat treat and/or I don't trust the manufacture I don't buy from them. EVER.

The reason I haven't bought that LT Wright I was drooling over is because LT Wright doesn't advertise their heat treat. That is unforgivable in my book.
My purchase will wind up being a 154CM blade from a different maker.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 04:25:06 PM by Dean51 »
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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 05:13:11 PM »

I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20°  micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.



My own experience leads me to agree with your conclusions, Dean.

However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?

One can start chasing his or her own tail with these sorts of things.

I've found that some steels, especially well established steels like 1095 and 154CM, work well for many manufacturers. In general I've had good luck with S3V blades, too.

I think it pays to stick with good makers who take their heat treats seriously. I can understand a maker not wanting to reveal his or her heat treat process, especially if that maker feels they have optimized the treatment for a particular knife & steel. Fehrman used to do some amazing things with S3V. We are lucky that in this day and age, a maker's reputation and ability becomes well known, fairly quickly.

LT Wright has a great reputation for a well made knife. I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an S3V knife from him. Although, I find 154CM to be such a great all-around steel, I think that would be an excellent choice, too.  :tu:
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 05:41:50 PM »

I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20°  micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.



My own experience leads me to agree with your conclusions, Dean.

However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?

One can start chasing his or her own tail with these sorts of things.

I've found that some steels, especially well established steels like 1095 and 154CM, work well for many manufacturers. In general I've had good luck with S3V blades, too.

I think it pays to stick with good makers who take their heat treats seriously. I can understand a maker not wanting to reveal his or her heat treat process, especially if that maker feels they have optimized the treatment for a particular knife & steel. Fehrman used to do some amazing things with S3V. We are lucky that in this day and age, a maker's reputation and ability becomes well known, fairly quickly.

LT Wright has a great reputation for a well made knife. I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an S3V knife from him. Although, I find 154CM to be such a great all-around steel, I think that would be an excellent choice, too.  :tu:

"However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?"

That is true but Ontario is not famous for taking heat treat to the max so I assume both were a couple points below optimal.
I did the same thing with 1095 and D2, GEC vs Queen both of those steels are a couple points below max heat treat.  The results were similar and 1095 is considered to have better edge retention than AUS8.

The point is a better heat treat can make a steel like AUS8 perform better than 1095. Performance of those steels are not that far apart.
Heat treat can not make AUS8  perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad. Or the test methods would have to be flawed.

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,551

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 05:59:26 PM »

Heat treat can not make AUS8  perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad.


 :rofl:   :iagree:


As an aside, I recently got my first knife in S90V, a Spydie Manix 2. So far I like it, but I haven't used it much. I'll be interest to see how it is to sharpen....once it needs it.

I like sharpening.

One of the reasons I don't get hung up on a particular steel (aside from a bit of a steel-crush on 154CM... :dd:) is that I enjoy the sharpening process and keeping a knife sharp. 1095 (with a good heat treat, yes) sharpens easily and well. It takes a great edge. And that makes it fun to work with and use.

Conversely, steels like Maxamet seem almost ridiculous to work with. Which steel would I rather own/use?  Probably a nice 1095 blade. It's something I know I can keep razor sharp.

I don't go cutting tough materials for hours on end. I don't need a knife that can whittle a tree into a toothpick. I'll be home sharpening before that happens. So a tough steel that takes a great edge, but doesn't have the ultimate wear-resistance, is actually more of a 'premium steel' for me. I'm sure that one day a Maxamet blade will find it's way into my pocket, but if all I ever use from now until the big sleep is a 1095 knife, I think I'd still be a happy man.

 :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2019, 07:40:38 PM »

Heat treat can not make AUS8  perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad.


 :rofl:   :iagree:


As an aside, I recently got my first knife in S90V, a Spydie Manix 2. So far I like it, but I haven't used it much. I'll be interest to see how it is to sharpen....once it needs it.

I like sharpening.

One of the reasons I don't get hung up on a particular steel (aside from a bit of a steel-crush on 154CM... :dd:) is that I enjoy the sharpening process and keeping a knife sharp. 1095 (with a good heat treat, yes) sharpens easily and well. It takes a great edge. And that makes it fun to work with and use.

Conversely, steels like Maxamet seem almost ridiculous to work with. Which steel would I rather own/use?  Probably a nice 1095 blade. It's something I know I can keep razor sharp.

I don't go cutting tough materials for hours on end. I don't need a knife that can whittle a tree into a toothpick. I'll be home sharpening before that happens. So a tough steel that takes a great edge, but doesn't have the ultimate wear-resistance, is actually more of a 'premium steel' for me. I'm sure that one day a Maxamet blade will find it's way into my pocket, but if all I ever use from now until the big sleep is a 1095 knife, I think I'd still be a happy man.

 :cheers:

I've never met a steel that was hard to sharpen but I've never met Maxamet.  :whistle:
My wasp Is S90V and it wasn't to bad to sharpen but it was only .012 behind the edge so there wasn't a lot of steel to remove to get the angle I wanted.
I don't know anything about the Spydie Manix but if S90V is thick behind the edge it could be a bear to reprofile. Worse than D2 if you have any experience with that.
 
I have to admit I don't often need S90V but I don't let that stop me.  :D On a traditional knife I would be happy with 154CM, it's an excellent steel for those knives. It's just almost impossible to find 154CM in a traditional.
I enjoy sharpening the new steels, I look at it as another dimension to the hobby.

 
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,551

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2019, 07:44:50 PM »
On a traditional knife I would be happy with 154CM, it's an excellent steel for those knives. It's just almost impossible to find 154CM in a traditional.

Yes, that's a bit of a shame. I've got a custom folder (Dan Stuckey) that is 154CM and I really like it. I wish more trans were made in 154CM.

Hey, at this point, isn't Bob Loveless considered 'traditional'?   (apologies to Bob..... :D)
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2019, 08:11:22 PM »
He is but I can't afford his book  :o much less his knives.
No Life Club Posts: 1,528
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2019, 08:18:17 PM »
Did someone mention a CPM 154 traditional?  >:D


"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2019, 08:30:50 PM »
 :twak:
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,551

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 12:13:37 AM »
 :gimme:
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,203
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 06:35:55 AM »
 :like:

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 3,255
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 11:17:10 AM »
Discussion is not possible with people that are not willing to listen, learn, and heaven forbid admit they were wrong and change their minds......

Guys like Pete at C&A outdoors and Supersteel Steve have even made videos where they address their critics.

I don't get involved in the mess that is youtube comments, but considering the criticisms they address in the videos it would seem many carry the same opinions as expressed here.

I'm a developing knife maker, I want to learn and I do not have the time, knives or opportunity to repeat these tests, so I deeply appreciate what they're doing.

I'm not willing to disregard a whole body of evidence because a few values in a spreadsheet were entered wrong, mistake admitted and corrected.

I fully support their attempts at doing real world testing within limits.....which they both freely admit.

I understand Pete's sarcasm......

I understand Steve's into............


Closer to home, my mentor tuned his Elmax chopper till it could go through just about everything, including nails hidden in tar poles.....
If you think a production knife can compete with what a dedicated maker can get from the same steel, I say good luck......

Nothing against ESEE, but I wonder if any of their knives have ever done the ABS journeyman test?


Price cannot be determined by the steel type, remember that very expensive damascus blade is just 1070 or 1080 combined with 15N20, both those are poorer cousins (as far as % carbon is concerned) to 1095 and cheaper still........

Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,203
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2019, 05:54:21 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:.

Lame to quote myself I know  :facepalm:.  I should have been more specific but I was hoping to create some discussion to see where the knife people in this community land.  I purposefully left heat treat out because each maker will deal with that in a personal way.  Some treat softer while others go all out.  We know that geometry is important as well.  The purpose of the knife and other factors. 

I wasn't looking at was pitting 1095 against another steel.  I was vague unfortunately, but my post was that I was not willing to pay up for 1095 ( price is very relative I know ).  I do feel price however it affects ones personal buying potential/threshold is part of the consideration when talking 1095.  We all have a threshold when considering any purchase. 

Whether a maker gets the most of of their steel is a great conversation.  What I can say is that my knives in 1095 are wonderful as mentioned in my opening post.  Can't say enough good about the steel.  I dont know if the maker got all they could from it  :dunno:.  What I do know is my Ontario Knife Co DPx HEST is a really think blade.  I re beveled it from a very wide edge ( 30 degree per side? ) to just about 22 degrees per side.  Its hair shaving sharp and only needs a strop to bring the edge back.  I use it to cut air hose, hard plastic, bags of mulch, I scraped my garage floor of some adhesive, and a variety of other things. 

I've seen some conversations about testing done on certain channels.  I don't get to involved on either side. 

The example you gave "Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........"
is a good example for me personally for a knife with 1095 I would not pay up for.  I was looking at the Moose and even at 100 bucks felt it was too much.  Call me cheap  :whistle:.  I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose  :D
   

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,203
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 06:02:30 PM »
I think Esee has such a terrific warranty if they don't test their knives using the ABS tests most wont care.  I could be totally wrong on that but for me personally I would not care.  I know they stand behind their knives so I would feel confident using them to the fullest of my ability not the knifes.  Does that make sense? 

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,203
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 06:10:20 PM »
Here's my Anza vs Eucalyptus.  It did fine with just a rolled edge.  As I mention I re profiled it and its been great since.  Its one of my most beastly knives.  Anza is made from files so not sure the exact steel used.  Not sure what all they do for heat treat either?  I believe the guy worked for Buck so maybe he learned from that time or sends the knives out?  I use this knife as an example because the steel has been wonderful.  I would not abuse my other knives like I did this one.     

 
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,57772.msg1192314.html#msg1192314
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,7563.msg1235495.html#msg1235495
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 06:22:54 PM by Aloha »

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2019, 07:20:42 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:.

Lame to quote myself I know  :facepalm:.  I should have been more specific but I was hoping to create some discussion to see where the knife people in this community land.  I purposefully left heat treat out because each maker will deal with that in a personal way.  Some treat softer while others go all out.  We know that geometry is important as well.  The purpose of the knife and other factors. 

I wasn't looking at was pitting 1095 against another steel.  I was vague unfortunately, but my post was that I was not willing to pay up for 1095 ( price is very relative I know ).  I do feel price however it affects ones personal buying potential/threshold is part of the consideration when talking 1095.  We all have a threshold when considering any purchase. 

Whether a maker gets the most of of their steel is a great conversation.  What I can say is that my knives in 1095 are wonderful as mentioned in my opening post.  Can't say enough good about the steel.  I dont know if the maker got all they could from it  :dunno:.  What I do know is my Ontario Knife Co DPx HEST is a really think blade.  I re beveled it from a very wide edge ( 30 degree per side? ) to just about 22 degrees per side.  Its hair shaving sharp and only needs a strop to bring the edge back.  I use it to cut air hose, hard plastic, bags of mulch, I scraped my garage floor of some adhesive, and a variety of other things. 

I've seen some conversations about testing done on certain channels.  I don't get to involved on either side. 

The example you gave "Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........"
is a good example for me personally for a knife with 1095 I would not pay up for. I was looking at the Moose and even at 100 bucks felt it was too much.  Call me cheap  :whistle:.  I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose  :D
   
I don't think with GEC, 1095 is the premium you are paying for.
When I was looking at GEC and Maserin Sod busters recently. The GEC 1095, with micarta handles was $66.50 and the Maserin D2 with Micarta handles was $51.32.
GEC and traditionals in general require a lot of hand fitting, There is a lot of hand fitting required on a pinned knife, add to that GEC is using a lot of the same equipment that was in use 70 years ago.
Maserin relies much more on precision parts that can be screwed together and shipped.
I think with GEC you are paying for the hand fit tradition of a pocket knife.
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,203
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2019, 09:33:42 PM »
Fair enough Dean51.  I'm cheap then  :facepalm:.  I have read about the fit and finish and I cannot deny they are some real lookers.  I think the prices you mention are within my threshold.  Oh and now I"m off to look at the Maserin you mentioned  :D

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
Allow me to enable   help  :whistle:
Stick to the second generation with the lanyard hole. They have a much better fit than the first run.
https://www.collectorknives.net/product-category/maserin-cutlery/maserin-plow/

I like mine, it's the best bang for the buck out there.
Next to a barlow


« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:09:05 PM by Dean51 »
No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2019, 10:04:41 PM »
How in the world did I quote myself on a new post.  :think:

Fixed it.  :D :spamkiller:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:10:33 PM by Dean51 »
Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 35,360
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2019, 10:48:56 PM »
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives   :o


No Life Club Posts: 2,107
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2019, 11:36:42 PM »
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives   :o



He must have some thick skin on his thumb!

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk

No Life Club Posts: 4,178 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2019, 11:38:11 PM »
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives   :o



He must have some thick skin on his thumb!

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk
One of these days there will be some red in a video.  :ahhh
No Life Club Posts: 3,255
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2019, 11:01:32 AM »
  I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose  :D
   

There I think you are wrong, but agree to disagree  :cheers:

I don't think with GEC, 1095 is the premium you are paying for.
When I was looking at GEC and Maserin Sod busters recently. The GEC 1095, with micarta handles was $66.50 and the Maserin D2 with Micarta handles was $51.32.
GEC and traditionals in general require a lot of hand fitting, There is a lot of hand fitting required on a pinned knife, add to that GEC is using a lot of the same equipment that was in use 70 years ago.
Maserin relies much more on precision parts that can be screwed together and shipped.
I think with GEC you are paying for the hand fit tradition of a pocket knife.

 :salute:
Agreed, you're not paying the premium for the steel in the case of the GEC, phrased that wrong, you pay a (deserved IMO) premium for a knife that happens to have 1095 blade(s).



Three years ago I paid a premium for a custom knife in D2 steel, having never even held D2 in my hands......now it's common as grass and becoming cheaper.
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,203
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2019, 02:50:45 PM »
Aw man.  No on the D2?  I have no experience with it.  I have seen some pretty good videos on the Rat in D2.   

Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 10,551

Nix us

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2019, 03:58:12 PM »
I'm a big fan of D2. With the right heat treat, it is a very nice steel. It takes a great edge and has very good edge retention. Knife Maker Bob Dozier popularized D2 here in the states in his fixed blade knives: hunter's really valued the edge holding ability when dressing out large game.

Some people complain that it is hard to sharpen, but I haven't found that to be the case.  Another complaint is that it can stain and rust. Again, I haven't found that to be a big issue.

One thing I have seen with D2 is chipping. This might be a heat treat issue. I also understand that CPM-D2 has finer carbides and is less prone to chipping. D2 isn't a great choice for a hard -use survival knife, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, if you are out hunting and have your D2 hunting knife with you......I guess it might become your survival knife.  :tu:

I've got a Spyderco Paramilitary in D2. Lovely knife, and no issues chipping, even with that fine tip.   :tu:
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:01:13 PM by Nix »

 

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