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Paying a premium for 1095? 1442

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2019, 07:44:50 PM »
On a traditional knife I would be happy with 154CM, it's an excellent steel for those knives. It's just almost impossible to find 154CM in a traditional.

Yes, that's a bit of a shame. I've got a custom folder (Dan Stuckey) that is 154CM and I really like it. I wish more trans were made in 154CM.

Hey, at this point, isn't Bob Loveless considered 'traditional'?   (apologies to Bob..... :D)
No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2019, 08:11:22 PM »
He is but I can't afford his book  :o much less his knives.

No Life Club Posts: 1,953
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2019, 08:18:17 PM »
Did someone mention a CPM 154 traditional?  >:D


"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2019, 08:30:50 PM »
 :twak:

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 12:13:37 AM »
 :gimme:
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 06:35:55 AM »
 :like:

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 3,554
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 11:17:10 AM »
Discussion is not possible with people that are not willing to listen, learn, and heaven forbid admit they were wrong and change their minds......

Guys like Pete at C&A outdoors and Supersteel Steve have even made videos where they address their critics.

I don't get involved in the mess that is youtube comments, but considering the criticisms they address in the videos it would seem many carry the same opinions as expressed here.

I'm a developing knife maker, I want to learn and I do not have the time, knives or opportunity to repeat these tests, so I deeply appreciate what they're doing.

I'm not willing to disregard a whole body of evidence because a few values in a spreadsheet were entered wrong, mistake admitted and corrected.

I fully support their attempts at doing real world testing within limits.....which they both freely admit.

I understand Pete's sarcasm......

I understand Steve's into............


Closer to home, my mentor tuned his Elmax chopper till it could go through just about everything, including nails hidden in tar poles.....
If you think a production knife can compete with what a dedicated maker can get from the same steel, I say good luck......

Nothing against ESEE, but I wonder if any of their knives have ever done the ABS journeyman test?


Price cannot be determined by the steel type, remember that very expensive damascus blade is just 1070 or 1080 combined with 15N20, both those are poorer cousins (as far as % carbon is concerned) to 1095 and cheaper still........

Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2019, 05:54:21 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:.

Lame to quote myself I know  :facepalm:.  I should have been more specific but I was hoping to create some discussion to see where the knife people in this community land.  I purposefully left heat treat out because each maker will deal with that in a personal way.  Some treat softer while others go all out.  We know that geometry is important as well.  The purpose of the knife and other factors. 

I wasn't looking at was pitting 1095 against another steel.  I was vague unfortunately, but my post was that I was not willing to pay up for 1095 ( price is very relative I know ).  I do feel price however it affects ones personal buying potential/threshold is part of the consideration when talking 1095.  We all have a threshold when considering any purchase. 

Whether a maker gets the most of of their steel is a great conversation.  What I can say is that my knives in 1095 are wonderful as mentioned in my opening post.  Can't say enough good about the steel.  I dont know if the maker got all they could from it  :dunno:.  What I do know is my Ontario Knife Co DPx HEST is a really think blade.  I re beveled it from a very wide edge ( 30 degree per side? ) to just about 22 degrees per side.  Its hair shaving sharp and only needs a strop to bring the edge back.  I use it to cut air hose, hard plastic, bags of mulch, I scraped my garage floor of some adhesive, and a variety of other things. 

I've seen some conversations about testing done on certain channels.  I don't get to involved on either side. 

The example you gave "Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........"
is a good example for me personally for a knife with 1095 I would not pay up for.  I was looking at the Moose and even at 100 bucks felt it was too much.  Call me cheap  :whistle:.  I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose  :D
   

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2019, 06:02:30 PM »
I think Esee has such a terrific warranty if they don't test their knives using the ABS tests most wont care.  I could be totally wrong on that but for me personally I would not care.  I know they stand behind their knives so I would feel confident using them to the fullest of my ability not the knifes.  Does that make sense? 

Esse Quam Videri
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 06:10:20 PM »
Here's my Anza vs Eucalyptus.  It did fine with just a rolled edge.  As I mention I re profiled it and its been great since.  Its one of my most beastly knives.  Anza is made from files so not sure the exact steel used.  Not sure what all they do for heat treat either?  I believe the guy worked for Buck so maybe he learned from that time or sends the knives out?  I use this knife as an example because the steel has been wonderful.  I would not abuse my other knives like I did this one.     

 
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,57772.msg1192314.html#msg1192314
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,7563.msg1235495.html#msg1235495
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 06:22:54 PM by Aloha »

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2019, 07:20:42 PM »
I like 1095 just like the next knife person.  I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use.  Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards  :dunno:.

Lame to quote myself I know  :facepalm:.  I should have been more specific but I was hoping to create some discussion to see where the knife people in this community land.  I purposefully left heat treat out because each maker will deal with that in a personal way.  Some treat softer while others go all out.  We know that geometry is important as well.  The purpose of the knife and other factors. 

I wasn't looking at was pitting 1095 against another steel.  I was vague unfortunately, but my post was that I was not willing to pay up for 1095 ( price is very relative I know ).  I do feel price however it affects ones personal buying potential/threshold is part of the consideration when talking 1095.  We all have a threshold when considering any purchase. 

Whether a maker gets the most of of their steel is a great conversation.  What I can say is that my knives in 1095 are wonderful as mentioned in my opening post.  Can't say enough good about the steel.  I dont know if the maker got all they could from it  :dunno:.  What I do know is my Ontario Knife Co DPx HEST is a really think blade.  I re beveled it from a very wide edge ( 30 degree per side? ) to just about 22 degrees per side.  Its hair shaving sharp and only needs a strop to bring the edge back.  I use it to cut air hose, hard plastic, bags of mulch, I scraped my garage floor of some adhesive, and a variety of other things. 

I've seen some conversations about testing done on certain channels.  I don't get to involved on either side. 

The example you gave "Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........"
is a good example for me personally for a knife with 1095 I would not pay up for. I was looking at the Moose and even at 100 bucks felt it was too much.  Call me cheap  :whistle:.  I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose  :D
   
I don't think with GEC, 1095 is the premium you are paying for.
When I was looking at GEC and Maserin Sod busters recently. The GEC 1095, with micarta handles was $66.50 and the Maserin D2 with Micarta handles was $51.32.
GEC and traditionals in general require a lot of hand fitting, There is a lot of hand fitting required on a pinned knife, add to that GEC is using a lot of the same equipment that was in use 70 years ago.
Maserin relies much more on precision parts that can be screwed together and shipped.
I think with GEC you are paying for the hand fit tradition of a pocket knife.

Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2019, 09:33:42 PM »
Fair enough Dean51.  I'm cheap then  :facepalm:.  I have read about the fit and finish and I cannot deny they are some real lookers.  I think the prices you mention are within my threshold.  Oh and now I"m off to look at the Maserin you mentioned  :D

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
Allow me to enable   help  :whistle:
Stick to the second generation with the lanyard hole. They have a much better fit than the first run.
https://www.collectorknives.net/product-category/maserin-cutlery/maserin-plow/

I like mine, it's the best bang for the buck out there.
Next to a barlow


« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:09:05 PM by Dean51 »

No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2019, 10:04:41 PM »
How in the world did I quote myself on a new post.  :think:

Fixed it.  :D :spamkiller:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:10:33 PM by Dean51 »

Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 40,282
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2019, 10:48:56 PM »
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives   :o


No Life Club Posts: 2,932
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2019, 11:36:42 PM »
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives   :o



He must have some thick skin on his thumb!

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk

No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2019, 11:38:11 PM »
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives   :o



He must have some thick skin on his thumb!

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk
One of these days there will be some red in a video.  :ahhh

No Life Club Posts: 3,554
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2019, 11:01:32 AM »
  I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose  :D
   

There I think you are wrong, but agree to disagree  :cheers:

I don't think with GEC, 1095 is the premium you are paying for.
When I was looking at GEC and Maserin Sod busters recently. The GEC 1095, with micarta handles was $66.50 and the Maserin D2 with Micarta handles was $51.32.
GEC and traditionals in general require a lot of hand fitting, There is a lot of hand fitting required on a pinned knife, add to that GEC is using a lot of the same equipment that was in use 70 years ago.
Maserin relies much more on precision parts that can be screwed together and shipped.
I think with GEC you are paying for the hand fit tradition of a pocket knife.

 :salute:
Agreed, you're not paying the premium for the steel in the case of the GEC, phrased that wrong, you pay a (deserved IMO) premium for a knife that happens to have 1095 blade(s).



Three years ago I paid a premium for a custom knife in D2 steel, having never even held D2 in my hands......now it's common as grass and becoming cheaper.
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2019, 02:50:45 PM »
Aw man.  No on the D2?  I have no experience with it.  I have seen some pretty good videos on the Rat in D2.   

Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2019, 03:58:12 PM »
I'm a big fan of D2. With the right heat treat, it is a very nice steel. It takes a great edge and has very good edge retention. Knife Maker Bob Dozier popularized D2 here in the states in his fixed blade knives: hunter's really valued the edge holding ability when dressing out large game.

Some people complain that it is hard to sharpen, but I haven't found that to be the case.  Another complaint is that it can stain and rust. Again, I haven't found that to be a big issue.

One thing I have seen with D2 is chipping. This might be a heat treat issue. I also understand that CPM-D2 has finer carbides and is less prone to chipping. D2 isn't a great choice for a hard -use survival knife, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, if you are out hunting and have your D2 hunting knife with you......I guess it might become your survival knife.  :tu:

I've got a Spyderco Paramilitary in D2. Lovely knife, and no issues chipping, even with that fine tip.   :tu:
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:01:13 PM by Nix »
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2019, 04:06:44 PM »
I've seen some "testing" with D2 that came up poor.  It was suggested the heat treat was the issue.  I've also seen it perform very well as compared to 1095.  As mentioned a few times in this thread heat treat is super important.   I dont worry too much about issued related to carbon steels.  Patina is fine and well I tend to take pretty good care of things that have any potential for "issues".     

Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

Nix us

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2019, 04:08:23 PM »
I've seen some "testing" with D2 that came up poor.  It was suggested the heat treat was the issue.  I've also seen it perform very well as compared to 1095.  As mentioned a few times in this thread heat treat is super important.   I dont worry too much about issued related to carbon steels.  Patina is fine and well I tend to take pretty good care of things that have any potential for "issues".   

Same here.

So you should try a D2 knife if you get the chance!  :tu:
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,765
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2019, 04:18:27 PM »
@GG.  With certain makers fit and finish ( the details ) are well worth the price of admission as some say.  The fact some use 1095 is not a knock against the knife. 

 



Esse Quam Videri
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,613 Firm believer of Sturgeon's Law
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2019, 08:46:02 PM »


So you should try a D2 knife if you get the chance!  :tu:

my one and only D2  ;)


My toys:

MTs: Surge (2x), Skeletool CX, Rebar, Blast, Fuse, Micra, Squirt (3x), Wave, Crunch, Mini, Spirit (2x), Pro Scout, MP700 (2x), Diesel, Powerlock, PowerPlier (2x), PocketPowerPlier, Blacktip , ST6 (2x), 5WR, A100

SAKs: Bantam, Executive, Ambassador, Minichamp, Classic Alox, Champion, Farmer, Explorer, Swisschamp, Golf Tool, Wenger Champ, EVO 52, Pocket Tool Chest
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

Nix us

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2019, 04:54:26 AM »
 :tu:   :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 3,554
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2019, 07:42:16 AM »
Aw man.  No on the D2?  I have no experience with it.  I have seen some pretty good videos on the Rat in D2.

Didn't mean to knock D2....not at all  :salute:
No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2019, 04:04:41 PM »
I'm a big fan of D2. With the right heat treat, it is a very nice steel. It takes a great edge and has very good edge retention. Knife Maker Bob Dozier popularized D2 here in the states in his fixed blade knives: hunter's really valued the edge holding ability when dressing out large game.

Some people complain that it is hard to sharpen, but I haven't found that to be the case.  Another complaint is that it can stain and rust. Again, I haven't found that to be a big issue.

One thing I have seen with D2 is chipping. This might be a heat treat issue. I also understand that CPM-D2 has finer carbides and is less prone to chipping. D2 isn't a great choice for a hard -use survival knife, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, if you are out hunting and have your D2 hunting knife with you......I guess it might become your survival knife.  :tu:

I've got a Spyderco Paramilitary in D2. Lovely knife, and no issues chipping, even with that fine tip.   :tu:
I had an issue once with D2 and micro chips but it was sharpened to 16 degrees per side. When i changed it to 18 degrees per side the chipping stopped. I've read else where that D2 doesn't like acute edge angles. All I really know is I've had no more trouble with chipping.

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

Nix us

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2019, 04:34:20 PM »
I had some chipping when I jammed this D2 ulu through the lid of a can (in order to open the can):







It's a chisel grind, but I'm not sure of the angle. It is actually more acute than it might appear.

This 'task' involved a little torsional force across the edge. I can only speculate, not having a point of comparison, but I'm not certain a 1095 or S3V blade with the same geometry would have held up any better. So, I'm claiming this is a 'ding' against D2.

I once chipped a 154CM blade, when I was cutting through a plastic bag. There was a glass bottle inside and the blade barely hit the glass, but I did feel that tap clearly. The edge chipped. This was a handmade knife, and I suspected the heat treat might have been too hard. It seemed to chip too easily. That knife sharpened up beautifully and has be a solid worker since.

I guess my point here is similar to that of the others who are saying that the performance of a steel depends on it's heat-area, edge geometry, and....how it's abused used. Stories of negligence not withstanding I try to be careful  with my edges, so I prefer a finer edge and harder steel. Exceptions being tools like axes and machetes.

So I don't mind a fine edged Spyderco with CPM-D2. I just have to remind myself not to open steel cans with it.  :D
No Life Club Posts: 4,441 Geometry cuts but the steel determines how long.
Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2019, 04:56:35 PM »
Ouch
SAK's have a can opener on them.   :whistle:


Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,015

Nix us

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Re: Paying a premium for 1095?
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2019, 05:00:35 PM »
 :doh:

 

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