Do most knives need points?

[SgtTowser]

Funnily enough, I just thought about this not even an hour ago, in the kitchen.    I've been a spear point fan for years, but also being a slipjoint fan, I never stab into anything.   Even my folding hunter is a drop point, and not very stabby. 

Enter, my kitchen....

Meet the characters -
New box of pasta.
Opinel No.10  Locked open at the ready

To open the pasta, I just stabbed the clip point straight through the top of the box and chopped it off like a pirate or something.  it was fun and efficient. 

I immediately looked to see if the locking EvoGrip in yellow comes with a corkcrew on the Victorinox website   

Thanks for the episode! Classic. It might  be even more fun with an Opie 13!!!

[SgtTowser]

The test carry of the Magnum by Boker with the broken point is completed.

I needed  a point only once—to poke a hole in a new sealed bottle of vitamins that would not open by the annoyingly small pull tab on the bottle.

But...

It turns out the MAGNUM with the broken point was easily able to poke a hole in the seal without a point.

My test suggests knife points are largely symbolic with little or no EDC utility that cannot be accomplished equally well by a knife with a square end.

A pointed knife is useful as a weapon and irrelevant to cutting chores.

About all that can be said for the functional gain of a pointed knife is you can puncture something you could just as easily cut, and you can conceive uses for a knife that would much better be accomplished by other tools you tend to carry.

For example, you can dig a splinter out of your finger with your Bowie knife—same as you can use a 155 mm howitzer to kill a house fly—or you can use the pin and tweezers in a SAK, which is much easier to carry more often in more jurisdictions.

Yes you can stab open a Quaker Oats container with your favorite boot knife—same as you could shoot a .45 caliber dumb-dumb into a yogurt top—or you could just use the pull tab.

And so on.

Thus a square ended knife offers full spectrum EDC function (assuming you are not knife fighting or cleaning elk), and eliminates broken and bent tips, plus keeps you from accidentally sticking yourself opening a letter. I opened several letters with both my square ended knife and with my MAGNUM with the broken tip.

Also, a flat ended knife can be ground to be a straight edge screw driver as seen on electricians knives of the 20th century. It would let you fasten something  and maybe even pry something—things you often need to do.

P.S: Going with a square ended knife does not preclude your carry of a tactical blade in your other pocket either. I think they make a nice couple.

Finally, I see merit to the argument that for chopping vegetables some belly is helpful sometimes, even though many fineparing knives have no belly. So: a flat end with some belly before the straight edge could be ideal for some.

[Ray S]

An interesting and thought provoking discussion to say the least. Over the years my needs for a knife have changed considerably.
When I was working in the body shop a pointy knife was good for digging out old Bondo(plastic body filler).A large folding hunter was used when I relocated to the parts department and spent a great deal of time making cardboard boxes and reducing others to scrappable size.When I was elevated to the parts manager's job,a smaller pocket knife was more than sufficient for everyday chores.
When I retired and began my second full time career as a sign painter a multi-blade scout/utility was the order of the day.I also began using a small coping blade to cut out intricate patterns. I still use one but it is now an old dogleg jack that the pen blade had broken and I re-ground it into a sort of coping blade.
So I guess what it all boils down to is whatever the particular use is determines what type of blade you use.And there are MANY styles of knives out there that do not depend on a point to complete their functions.Grapefruit knives;table knives;palette knives;all a re specially suited to their tasks.

[SgtTowser]

An interesting and thought provoking discussion to say the least. Over the years my needs for a knife have changed considerably.
When I was working in the body shop a pointy knife was good for digging out old Bondo(plastic body filler).A large folding hunter was used when I relocated to the parts department and spent a great deal of time making cardboard boxes and reducing others to scrappable size.When I was elevated to the parts manager's job,a smaller pocket knife was more than sufficient for everyday chores.
When I retired and began my second full time career as a sign painter a multi-blade scout/utility was the order of the day.I also began using a small coping blade to cut out intricate patterns. I still use one but it is now an old dogleg jack that the pen blade had broken and I re-ground it into a sort of coping blade.
So I guess what it all boils down to is whatever the particular use is determines what type of blade you use.And there are MANY styles of knives out there that do not depend on a point to complete their functions.Grapefruit knives;table knives;palette knives;all a re specially suited to their tasks.

 

Thanks for your response. You nailed it. Knives for needs. Different activities and stages of life trigger different needs. My life has had different phases and I have changed my carry for each phase, too.

[ReamerPunch]

Yes, but...my SAK has a pin and tweezers.  So: I’ve never been tempted to use one of the knife points instead for splinters.

And reamers. Don't forget reamers.

[ReamerPunch]

(Image removed from quote.)

For me, a sheepsfoot blade is almost ideal for EDC. But that is due to my most frequent use for a knife: stripping the outer sheath off of non-metallic cable (Romex, SE cable). A pronounced belly is a hinderance. I was very excited when I saw the blade above, and I keep reaching for that MT seen above every few days due to that blade's utility to me.

However, I do wish there was a drop point blade paired with the sheepsfoot. A point comes in handy sometimes.

That blade shape is just fine with me. Sheepsfoot, reverse tanto, whatever you wanna call it. Perfectly adequate for edc.

[Aloha]

After thinking on this topic since last posting and reading the answers I don't NEED a knife whose edge and spine meet to a point.  Having said that even the knives pictured have a meeting where its "pointy" enough.  So to answer the OP question NO most knives do not need a point.  But thats not the point for me.  Dive knives came to mind when this topic came up.  To my mind thats a knife that has no point to speak of.  Victorinox my first SAK does not have a point.  Oyster knives are pointless ( haha ). 

I used a clever for many years as a sole knife both professionally and in my home.  The cutting edge is parallel to the spine with a front "nose" meeting the edge at 90 degree creating a point or corner that is more than capable.  Could I stab with it?  No.  Back to me saying thats not the point.  I have been carrying my Barlow pictured a lot.  The geometry of the blade has changed im sure since its been sharpened badly by previous owner/s.  There is a edge/corner that is capable tho i wouldn't be able to stab.  Because its not the purpose of this knife or any of my knives in my use no stabby point needed. 

So I stick to my Yes and No to points on knives.     

[ElevenBlade]

Don’t forget about the ever popular Victorinox One Handed Trekkers. By design, these have a relatively blunt tip.  I’m not sure that this is a particular advantage, but it certainly hasn’t been a drawback.

[Ray S]

Some,"pointless" knives.
#1 Parker,"18 Wheeler".Supposedly used to remove pebbles from between tire treads.
#2 Bonum folding palette knife for spreading paint.
#3 Case & Cattaraugus folding machetes;part of a WWII bailout package for air crew members.
#4 Clauss bread knife.

[Ray S]

A few more.
#1 A combination dog/horse grooming knife and hoof pick.
#2 Fruit peeling knife by Edward Wusthof.
#3 Supposedly called a,"sliming"knife. Not sure of it's purpose.
#4 A herb/vegetable chopper designed to be used in a bowl made in France.

[Ray S]

Still more.
#1 Harrison Bros. & Howson hunter with an unusual point.
#2 Called the,"Klever Kleaver" it does a lot of tasks. How it it does these remains to be seen.
#3 Lamson grapefruit knife.
#4 A couple of oyster shuckers.

[Ray S]

More points for no points:
#1 Another fruit peeling knife by Pfeilring.
#2 A picnic set with various utensils that clip onto the extra handle.
#3 A rase knife used to cut letters and numbers into wooden barrels and the like. Also to scribe water lines on boats.
#4 Marked,"Rogers Pat Apr 11 91(1891 I assume),I have no clue as to what it was used for.

[Ray S]

And they just keep on comin'..........
#1 For removing the pin feathers of poultry by Russell
#2 Grapefruit knife by Russell
#3 A joke of sorts:a knife to hold your garden peas on while you eat them.
#4 A military issue pocket knife from WWI by Schatt & Morgan

[Ray S]

Got a few more yet........
#1 A scraper/putty knife made by Whitehead & Hoag.
#2 Sailor's knife from 1968.
#3 A handmade knife similar to the Harrison Bros. & Howson knife previously pictured.
#4 Ulster pill sorting knife advertising Tums.

[Ray S]

Last batch.
#1 One armed man's knife by United Boker.
#2 Sailor's knife by Warris dated 1940.
#3 Sailor's knife by Whittingslowe Adelaide Australia.
#4 A trio of fish scaling knives.

[nate j]

If, after reading this thread, anyone feels they no longer have need of their pointed knives, please let me know.  I will gladly PM you my address, and take all those useless pointed knives off your hands :-D

[SgtTowser]

Ray and everyone: THANK YOU! You have made my day. Pointless knives are awesome in their variety!!! Great pics.

Ray, what is the use of the concave end of the one armed man blade? I have seen many and never understood.

[nate j]

Ray, what is the use of the concave end of the one armed man blade? I have seen many and never understood.

Not Ray, but I’ll field this one.  The purpose of the concave end is to allow the blade to be opened by catching that end on the edge of a pocket, belt, etc.  thus allowing the knife to be opened by someone with only one arm, hence the name.  I have read that the design and name came about in the aftermath of the Civil War, from which there apparently were enough amputees to make marketing products specifically to them worthwhile.

[SgtTowser]

Not Ray, but I’ll field this one.  The purpose of the concave end is to allow the blade to be opened by catching that end on the edge of a pocket, belt, etc.  thus allowing the knife to be opened by someone with only one arm, hence the name.  I have read that the design and name came about in the aftermath of the Civil War, from which there apparently were enough amputees to make marketing products specifically to them worthwhile.

Thank you, sir!!!!

It makes sense. Have you tried it? Does it work?

Maybe this is where Emerson got his idea for the wave?

[pfrsantos]

Not Ray, but I’ll field this one.  The purpose of the concave end is to allow the blade to be opened by catching that end on the edge of a pocket, belt, etc.  thus allowing the knife to be opened by someone with only one arm, hence the name.  I have read that the design and name came about in the aftermath of the Civil War, from which there apparently were enough amputees to make marketing products specifically to them worthwhile.

Had no idea. Thanks for telling us.

 

[nate j]

Have you tried it? Does it work?

I would assume it does work, though I have not personally tried it.  I prefer my knives with points, so the style doesn't really appeal to me, and I don't own any.

[ElevenBlade]

Ive been fidgeting with a Gerber Armbar, which has a sheepfoot blade. It's slowly been growing on me.

I've had a long affair with tanto and sheepfoot blades in the past. 2 years ago I threw out two of my unserviceable wharncliff blades.

Having spent the better part of two decades with Leatherman and Victorinox, I'd lost any feeling that a sheepfoot blade is particularly advantageous.

This thread, combined with some research on Tradional British pocketknife styles has me curious once again to try them out.

Not so fast though... I'll be waiting for the September SAK-alike Challenge.

[SgtTowser]

 

Ive been fidgeting with a Gerber Armbar, which has a sheepfoot blade. It's slowly been growing on me.

I've had a long affair with tanto and sheepfoot blades in the past. 2 years ago I threw out two of my unserviceable wharncliff blades.

Having spent the better part of two decades with Leatherman and Victorinox, I'd lost any feeling that a sheepfoot blade is particularly advantageous.

This thread, combined with some research on Tradional British pocketknife styles has me curious once again to try them out.

Not so fast though... I'll be waiting for the September SAK-alike Challenge.

 

[Ray S]

Thank you, sir!!!!

It makes sense. Have you tried it? Does it work?

Maybe this is where Emerson got his idea for the wave?

They actually work quite well.I had a few with that style of blade and they all readily opened once you got the hang of it.I found that they worked best if you trousers had a reinforced section on the outer seam such as you find on denim jeans.They will also work on a pocket lip but it can be a bit awkward.
Here is another I had posted before with not one but three points. A one armed man's knife made by the Press Button Knife Co.just before 1900.This one is etched with:"Compliments of the A.A.Marks Co. Newark New Jersey Makers of Artificial Limbs" Supposedly these were given free of charge to veterans of the Spanish-American War of 1898 who had lost a hand or an arm in battle. It opened by pressing the button in the front bolster.The curved blade allowed food to be cut with a rocking motion and then the three points acted as a fork to pick up the food from the plate. As an aside the aluminum used in the fancy handle was literally worth more than gold at the time. This was due to the difficulty in mining the bauxite from which aluminum is made.Once a less expensive method was found to mine it,the price dropped drastically.

[SteveC]

That's a cool one Ray !

[Aloha]

Ray.   

As always the depth of your collection is such a treat.  Thank you for sharing pics and information.   

[SgtTowser]

Here is another factoid that makes me wonder if knives with points are relevant to EDC.

Despite not needing a pointed knife, I wanted a Sinkievich design and found a new Kershaw Atmos for next to nothing, as it circles the drain of discontinuance. I found no Sinks with square ends.

I opened the Kershaw box and for some strange reason skimmed the factory directions and disclaimer boiler plate.

It indicates that Kershaw folding knives are specifically designed NOT to be stabbed with, or pried with. By inference, I reckon they must not be designed to fight with. Kershaw says they are designed to be cutting tools only.

So: whether or not this were legalese to esculpate them from lawsuits, they nevertheless explicit state that their knives are not designed to tolerate the kinetic forces of puncturing and prying.

So: why are they putting points on their knives at all?

Possible Answer: mostly ornamental style, maybe?

If I stab my box of cereal to start my cut to open the top, it appears I would be using my nice new Sinkievich Atmos outside its design envelope. It was not designed to puncture...just cut.

And it is VERY SLICEY.

But who needs a point for Slicey?

Ornamental tail fins lasted a very short time on cars.

Pointed Knive have been the prevalent form factor since cave person days.

Hmmmm.

[pomsbz]

I carried this Navy Knife for 6 months as my EDC. I went back to a point, specifically a spear point blade. I prefer it. You can use the tip of the sheepsfoot to pierce but it's not as comfortable an angle and I can use the tip of the spear to tease stuff open in a way which I can't with the flat point. I used to enjoy clip blades but more for the look than the need for the thinner tip.

[SgtTowser]

I carried this Navy Knife for 6 months as my EDC. I went back to a point, specifically a spear point blade. I prefer it. You can use the tip of the sheepsfoot to pierce but it's not as comfortable an angle and I can use the tip of the spear to tease stuff open in a way which I can't with the flat point. I used to enjoy clip blades but more for the look than the need for the thinner tip.


(Image removed from quote.)

How much do u want for your NAVY KNIFE? 😀

Just kidding.

Thanks so much for responding. Your sound reasoning will help a lot of persons.

I wish I were one. 🤪

Is it a 3.5” or a 3” blade? I have a an original 3.5” WWII version in roughly ground condition that I nevertheless love and that in part inspired the thread.

For what it’s worth, I tried a 3” post war rope knife in good condition and did not carry it more than one day before deciding it completely missed the mark. The extra half inch of cutting edge makes a huge difference in use.

I tried a non swayback and it too completely misses the mark.

I like Ken Onion knives and he did a contempo swayback, but the blade is not a square end. Wrong!

Serge Pachenko recently got a lot right  with his clever collection, but they are way short on cutting edge.

Custom knife makers make some, or would, but their prices are only good for them, not for me. I don’t doubt they put even more time into their fine knives than they bill for. I’m just not their target market.

There are a million cleaver flippers and thumb stud razors, but they are mostly not sway backed, or too short, or to thin at the spine.

And when I saw even my current designer gold standard—Marcin Slyzs—go Wharnie on his otherwise exceptional swayback for Spyderco, I went into a knife equivalent of Quarantine Stress Disorder and began to stay in bed—manifesting signs of knife market stress trauma.

Artisan Blades teased me with a 4 inch coping blade (thick spine, concave grind in good steel) that they IMHO mistakenly called a cleaver, but then they attached it to a pointless tactical handle instead of a swayback.

Few seem to get a coping blade works best with a swayback back unless you want to use your coping blade as a meat cleaver and doa lot of round house pounding cuts on a rack of lamb.

Few seem to get that a thick spine and a concave grind are great for heavy duty drag slicing. If I want to julienne some vegetables, I will get get a Robert Herder high carbon paring knife, not a cleaver or a razor.

You see, I am in a swayback 3.5” coping blade desert.

But like Paul Newman in Hombre, I have no choice but to cross the desert to escape the gaggle of silly folding meat cleavers in my wake. And I can cut it.

Well, maybe.

But now the good news...

Either way, you know what you like and you found a spear point that works for you, and that’s all that matters.

I used to carry Champion and then Swiss Champ  in SAKs “sort of” satisfied,  til I got my Cybertool L and now my yearnings for another SAK are over. Period. Even if they come out with something better (and they will), I don’t need anything better. Well, if they add an integral ratchet and some cool way of carrying more driver heads, I might consider it. 😂

It happens. A person finds the right knife for himself. He may have some affairs with other knives, or he may have a permanent knife mistress, or he may practice cutlery polygamy. But blessed are those that find their perfect match. Cybertool L is mine in SAKs.

So: Now I am questing after the right square end swayback with a 3.5 inch long blade with coping blade spine like my Coast Guard Camillus. I see old Cammies now all the time on E-Bog, but so far there is always something lacking, too much blade play, cracked wood, too many scratches, silly pricing, or silly competition, etc.

And a part of me hopes for a great contemporary expression of this old style of knife.

I ain’t no hard core primitive. Just a discerning old coot.

Still nothing else will do. A swayback with 3.5” square end in good condition—not needing mint. Brass liners. Ideally I would like it to be one handed with a Walker lock.

Spear points are my favorite looking blade profile right now, so I can empathize with you a bit, but my Cybertool L has the point probe thing covered six ways from Sunday on not one but two blades and an awl and a cork screw. Since I’m already covered on point probe: I think to myself— if I only want to look at a knife, I would just buy a picture of a spear point by Ray Laconico, probably, and frame it.

But I want a swayback square end user to complement my CTL.

A barehead or teardrop easy open just will not do.

We make our own hells and must live in them with dignity until we can resolve them.

Very tough to find a swayback with a coping blade at 3.5” at a right price; that’s the gist of it.

[pomsbz]

How much do u want for your NAVY KNIFE? 😀

Just kidding.

Thanks so much for responding. Your sound reasoning will help a lot of persons.

I wish I were one. 🤪

Is it a 3.5” or a 3” blade? I have a an original 3.5” WWII version in roughly ground condition that I nevertheless love and that in part inspired the thread.

For what it’s worth, I tried a 3” post war rope knife in good condition and did not carry it more than one day before deciding it completely missed the mark. The extra half inch of cutting edge makes a huge difference in use.

I tried a non swayback and it too completely misses the mark.

I like Ken Onion knives and he did a contempo swayback, but the blade is not a square end. Wrong!

Serge Pachenko recently got a lot right  with his clever collection, but they are way short on cutting edge.

Custom knife makers make some, or would, but their prices are only good for them, not for me. I don’t doubt they put even more time into their fine knives than they bill for. I’m just not their target market.

There are a million cleaver flippers and thumb stud razors, but they are mostly not sway backed, or too short, or to thin at the spine.

And when I saw even my current designer gold standard—Marcin Slyzs—go Wharnie on his otherwise exceptional swayback for Spyderco, I went into a knife equivalent of Quarantine Stress Disorder and began to stay in bed—manifesting signs of knife market stress trauma.

Artisan Blades teased me with a 4 inch coping blade (thick spine, concave grind in good steel) that they IMHO mistakenly called a cleaver, but then they attached it to a pointless tactical handle instead of a swayback.

Few seem to get a coping blade works best with a swayback back unless you want to use your coping blade as a meat cleaver and doa lot of round house pounding cuts on a rack of lamb.

Few seem to get that a thick spine and a concave grind are great for heavy duty drag slicing. If I want to julienne some vegetables, I will get get a Robert Herder high carbon paring knife, not a cleaver or a razor.

You see, I am in a swayback 3.5” coping blade desert.

But like Paul Newman in Hombre, I have no choice but to cross the desert to escape the gaggle of silly folding meat cleavers in my wake. And I can cut it.

Well, maybe.

But now the good news...

Either way, you know what you like and you found a spear point that works for you, and that’s all that matters.

I used to carry Champion and then Swiss Champ  in SAKs “sort of” satisfied,  til I got my Cybertool L and now my yearnings for another SAK are over. Period. Even if they come out with something better (and they will), I don’t need anything better. Well, if they add an integral ratchet and some cool way of carrying more driver heads, I might consider it. 😂

It happens. A person finds the right knife for himself. He may have some affairs with other knives, or he may have a permanent knife mistress, or he may practice cutlery polygamy. But blessed are those that find their perfect match. Cybertool L is mine in SAKs.

So: Now I am questing after the right square end swayback with a 3.5 inch long blade with coping blade spine like my Coast Guard Camillus. I see old Cammies now all the time on E-Bog, but so far there is always something lacking, too much blade play, cracked wood, too many scratches, silly pricing, or silly competition, etc.

And a part of me hopes for a great contemporary expression of this old style of knife.

I ain’t no hard core primitive. Just a discerning old coot.

Still nothing else will do. A swayback with 3.5” square end in good condition—not needing mint. Brass liners. Ideally I would like it to be one handed with a Walker lock.

Spear points are my favorite looking blade profile right now, so I can empathize with you a bit, but my Cybertool L has the point probe thing covered six ways from Sunday on not one but two blades and an awl and a cork screw. Since I’m already covered on point probe: I think to myself— if I only want to look at a knife, I would just buy a picture of a spear point by Ray Laconico, probably, and frame it.

But I want a swayback square end user to complement my CTL.

A barehead or teardrop easy open just will not do.

We make our own hells and must live in them with dignity until we can resolve them.

Very tough to find a swayback with a coping blade at 3.5” at a right price; that’s the gist of it.

I sold it a long time ago. The wood (old barn oak) was untreated from the factory and so soft a fingernail could mark it. After 6 months it was a wreck. I restored it to new condition by sanding out all the marks then stabilizing the wood with a mixture of linseed and tung oils to harden it but I hate having to do that kind of thing. If I wanted a hobby project I'd have bought one, this was supposed to be a knife off the shelf. I also missed having a point and I kept rounding off the 'tip' which on a knife like this does almost all the work when cutting on a flat surface. Having a spear/clip blade means that there is belly and more of the actual blade is working into the cut on a flat surface (food/hobby, etc).

In any case the knife was a 2.8" ish blade. Wouldn't have suited your uses. I'm the kind of person who uses the small blade on their SAK far more often than the main blade.