Damn they are getting good....

[Grant Lamontagne]

Let me preface this by admitting up front, with over 25 years in the industry, I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

I may have suspected it, but it seemed so real I had a hard time believing it, and now that I know the truth, I am completely blown away.

But since you have no idea what I am talking about, let's start from the beginning.

Yesterday I went into one of my local pawn shops and found they had a selection of Benchmade models, which I was naturally interested in.  I love Benchmade knives, but they are usually a bit beyond me financially.  The price tags on them were reasonable and I thought I'd take a closer look.

I instantly fell in love with a Freek, and managed to wrangle an extra $20 off the already insanely good price tag of $120.  For those not familiar, this knife is listed in Canada at $420 CAD, so I am already absolutely thrilled that this pawn shop doesn't know what they have.

I get out to the car, Megan asks what I bought and I tell her that I absolutely stole this Benchmade at a mere $120, and even if it is a fake (always a possibility) then it's got to be worth at least $120 given the G-10 handles, anodized liners and spacers etc.  But the feel and quality of this knife, still in the original box I might add, is so freaking amazing that there is no way it could be a fake.

I send pics to a few friends to show off, and almost immediately Inky comes back with "Dude, it's a fake."

And, after checking the Benchmade site and looking closely at the knife in my hands and the pics on the website, he's absolutely right. 

The Torx are a different size.

The Jimping is slightly different.

The shape of the pocket clip is ever so slightly different.

The branding is marginally further from the thumbstud.

But you have to look really, really close to see it.  You literally have to be a Benchmade speSmurfpillst to pick up the super slight differences, and absolutely none of those differences are obvious or affect the operation of the knife in the least.

It feels like a Benchmade.  It looks like a Benchmade.  It locks up solid like a Benchmade.  It even sounds like a Benchmade.

I haven't bought a new Benchmade in many years, but I have handled more knives than most people will see in a lifetime.  I own a knife related website, I pick out fake SAKs and Leathermans as a hobby, I've got a podcast about knives and I've been in the industry for well over two smurfing decades.  I have even been published in Tactical Knives Magazine for smurf's sake.

And I was completely taken in by this fake, but even though I sort of suspected it might be a fake, I still felt it was worth $120.

I mean, the materials, the craftsmanship, everything about it was absolutely perfect.

The blade alignment was better than most of the knives I own, the texturing on the G-10 is absolutely perfect.  I have paid more for lesser knives than this in the past- quite a few in fact, and felt like I got excellent value when I bought them.

Now I don't ordinarily recommend buying knockoffs- I know too many designers to ever feel good about taking their money away and suggesting that you buy from someone else, but the next piece of info I share is going to call into question everything I know in this industry, every fact I have ever learned or shared.

You may want to stop reading this here.

Show content

This smurfing knockoff, with all it's absolutely perfect workmanship and (what we consider to be) high end materials, sells for under $25 CAD.

We recorded an episode of EDC-TV last night and Abe, a custom knifemaker and owner of Diving Sparrow Knifeworks, wo has had his designs produced by Boker and CRKT said that he couldn't even buy the steel needed to make one of these knives for $25, let alone the other materials and the time to put them all together.

I literally have no idea how I am ever going to bring myself to spend the money on a "proper" knife ever again.

That aside, here are some pictures I took of the knife.  The store took them back and I unfortunately identified all of their Benchmades as fakes.  They were not happy as they probably thought they were getting a great deal too, but they appreciated the info and gave me my money back.   

Def

[Antti Lammi]

Shame that was fake one, it really looks real to me but i know that there are many people who can tell when its fake or not. Tho it really looks awesome.

[Grant Lamontagne]

That's the thing- it may have been a stolen design, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with this knife.  It was absolutely perfect.  None of the things about it that identified it as a fake have anything to do with the fact that this is an absolutely fantastic knife. 

Which leads me to wonder, why would I keep buying Benchmade, Spyderco, Cold Steel, Kershaw, Boker, CRKT, ZT, Microtech, Becker, ESEE, Ontario etc knives when the stuff coming from China is of similar (or greater) quality than the above, and not just at a fraction of the price, but an ungodly, inconceivably inexpensive price?

The real one is a $420 knife.  The knockoff is $25, with no discernable difference in quality or materials.

I could see buying the "real" one if the fake was 50-75% of the price.  That would make me feel good, because I am supporting the industry and the designers, yadda yadda yadda.  I could convince myself that it's worth the extra.

At 25% of the price, I'd have to start thinking pretty seriously about whether I'm "supporting them" or they are screwing me.  There's a difference, right?

$25 is less than 6% of $420.

Six percent is a pretty massive difference, and honestly, I have a hard time justifying why I'd pay that much more for a name brand.

Now, there's another wrinkle here, and that's the designer.  I like to support the designers, and I feel like in the case of this Benchmade, it's best to buy the real one.

But if the design wasn't an issue... well that's a whole different ballgame.

If you are looking for a one handed opening, tactical style folder and you find two that you like, that are similar in weight, size, function etc, and you like them both.  For all intents and purposes, they feel like similar quality, similar materials etc, and you don't know the designer of either of them, would you buy the $420 one or the $25 one?

Assuming all else is equal, and the only difference is price, why would you pay for the $420 one?   

Def

[Antti Lammi]

If it looks same i would probably pay 25$ rather than 420$ even tho its fake one.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I just mean, get away from the idea of a fake, and think of just two knives of virtually identical quality and materials. 

One priced at $25 and one priced at $420, and no one, even a guy who has spent 20+ years evaluating knives can tell the difference.

Which one are you likely to buy?

Being who I am, I would wonder what's wrong with the $25 one, was it stolen, is it going to explode, is it made from steel mined around Chernobyl and it glows in the dark?

But I'd end up buying the $25 one, because in the end, it's $25 and if it breaks in a week, at least it would make a good forum post and I've spent more on even lesser things.

Def

[Grant Lamontagne]

And if you are Benchmade, Cold Steel, Spyderco etc...

How can you possibly compete?

I mean, you can try to shut them down for using your design, but in the end, they are just going to design their own stuff and beat you into the ground.

I knew this was going to happen as a concept but I didn't know it was already happening at this level.

Def

[aicolainen]

Fakes have never appealed to me.
Everyone gets screwed. The designer, the OEM, the workers, the environment and IMO even the buyer.

If you even get a properly heat treated steel in a $25 Freek clone, it sure isn't CPM M4.

I'm rather skeptical of buying Chinese even when they OEM for an established and respected company, but I'd rather go that route if I wanted to save some money. At least there will be some oversight and requirements with regards to IP, HSE and terms of employment.

[dks]

Try QSP, Sencut, kansept as they have a lot of value for money models.
Even  Boker magnum has some lower cost models.

I do not think decent quality Chinese knives are a recent thing. Remember the SRM and enlan models from decades ago, that were impressive. and had people comparing them with Sebenzas.

The issue with fakes is that you do not know where the faking stops - is the steel as described, is the heat treat decent, are the bolts strong enough?

Note that you can get Italian and branded Chinese made knives with magnacut and titanium for a pretty low price and true specs.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have some Kansept knives and a couple of OKnife knives and I really like them a lot.

Inky is a big fan of Eafengrow and has convinced Abe to try them, and now Abe likes them too.  Inky has been talking about how great Sarenmu (I think?) knives are for a while and I have been very much doubting him.

Not any more.

Def

[Farmer X]

How can you possibly compete?

First, I'm glad to hear you got your money back, and a little upset that the pawn shop got screwed as well. Hopefully the...um, individual who sold them to the shop will face some repercussions.

ESEE has stated that they've had success shutting down a few counterfeiters. But the "how can you compete" scenario that I'm really curious about involves Case. A non-enthusiast who just wants a good working knife might compare a Case side-by-side with a Rough Ryder, see that the quality is roughly comparable, and figure that the Rough Ryder is a better buy at roughly a fifth the cost of a similar Case. I want to see Case succeed, but they have a few QA holes that need shoring up.

Fakes have never appealed to me.
Everyone gets screwed.

You speak the truth!

Note that you can get Italian and branded Chinese made knives with magnacut and titanium for a pretty low price and true specs.

That's true; the Chinese have come a long way. But I still can't see giving $200-plus for a Made in China knife. At that price point, there are a lot of American-made fixed blades that I'd much rather have.

[buggs]

Interesting story for sure, thanks for sharing. 

I didn't catch it in the original story or subsequent comments (might just be my poor reading) but I have one question: what are the odds the steel is faked?  I would have to think it's fairly easy to mimic a steel based on appearance but not on performance after you've had it for a while.  How's the edge retention?  How does it respond to sharpening?  Just a couple of random thoughts that popped into my head. 

As something of an analagous story, I'm more of a watch guy than I am of a knife guy, though I collect and love both.  To no one's surprise, fake watches abound as the prices generally tend to wildly exceed those of knives for the most part.  So I'm not going to go down that path for discussion sake, it's well understood. 

Where I will go is to tell you what I think about various watches and the pricing we see.  I've always owned a watch, even in the advent of smart phones.  That watch has always been at the lower end, most often under $100 in original MSRP.  Think Timex Triathlon that was an easy precursor to smart technology - lighted, timers, alarms but with better water resistance.  I owned a few other watches over the years, most quartz, none too expensive. 

About five years ago I got into buying watches (I'm something of an obsessive collector - according to my daughter there's a definition for the behavior, but I either choose to ignore it or forget it).  I started slowly initially with another fairly basic Timex. I had lagged in wearing a watch for a while, but missed it, so thought ballpark $100 was reasonable to see if I liked watches.  I got back into it fairly quickly and decided to grab a bunch of more watches (5) in fairly short order.  Fairly common brand names (Bulova, Seiko, Tissot) but a nice mix of diving, chronograph, etc.  The prices were up considerably from my previous watch purchases but still "reasonable" in the watch world, around $500 or less.  I liked them and I liked the variety. 

In that mix came one fake.  The takeaway lesson is if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is, coupled with don't buy shizznit late at night online after drinking.  The Tissot I  bought from an online retailer based out of Toronto turned out to be a fake.  Like the knives above a remarkably good fake.  Like the knife above the tells are subtle but if you know, you can see them.  This Tissot was really, really good.  But then it didn't quite perform quite up to par and the hands started to mis-align.  Fair enough, lesson learned more or less. 

I kept buying watches and stepped up in price.  Most expensive watch I've bought is $3000 (again, a pittance in the watch world) but I now have several more in the $2000+ range.  I genuinely like them all and they are predominantly purchased direct from the retailers.

The funny thing I've found though is that what ultimately matters is that I like what I'm wearing and it performs accordingly.  Would I love a Rolex or Omega or other expensive brand?  Hell yes.  But is it good value. 

To tie it back to above, will the cheap Chinese knock off perform in the long run?   Because that's what really matters and why I ask about the steel.  Will that knife perform like a Benchmade will over the years or will it, like my fake Tissot, show signs really quickly?  That's where the price differential and buying legitimate products comes from. 

I've got Olight stories that make me question purchasing from them again vs Fenix or the like, but that's for another time.  Sometimes we get what we paid for. 

[Farmer X]

Will that knife perform like a Benchmade will over the years or will it, like my fake Tissot, show signs really quickly?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it would show signs quickly. And the mention of your Olight stories piqued my curiosity.

[nate j]

As several have mentioned, aside from considerations around fairness to the original IP owners, I wouldn’t deliberately buy a counterfeit item because no matter how good it looks, some important characteristics aren’t readily apparent by inspection.  For example, if we’re talking about knives,  how do we know the steel is what is advertised, or that it has been properly heat treated?  If we’re talking about watches, how do we know if it will keep accurate time, or if the mechanism will fail in a month?

When the fakes are sophisticated enough that even knowledgeable and experienced people can struggle to identify them in person, I think the best defenses are buying from reputable, authorized dealers; and remembering that if a deal seems to good to be true, then it probably is.

[buggs]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it would show signs quickly. And the mention of your Olight stories piqued my curiosity.

It's a bit out of place here given the topic, so I hope it's ok, but I'll mention the Olight aspect. 

The really short version is that some of their  models that I've owned seem to just out and out die around the five year mark.  Now I don't honestly remember when I purchased my first Olights, but it would be prior to the Pandemic.  I'd guess the first batches I bought from them were somewhere around 2017 or so. 

None of the lights I own have been used what one would refer to as 'extensively'.  I've got a bad collector gene so I buy more than I need.  But they do get used, as they are dispersed around the house.  They also are not abused and don't get a ton of outdoor time.  The only one I generally take outside the house is a i3T and it has held up through multiple battery changes. 

From the first lights I ordered, five of the first six are out right dead.  One is a small keychain light, the i1R.  It got lots of use on a keychain and performed well for a few years and just died.  The first i5T I bought is done.  Cleaned the inside contacts, doesn't matter which battery I put in there, just won't light.  The first Baton I got that made use of regular batteries (not rechargeable) went fritzy (electrical sounds and light shorting) and subsequently just died.  Two others I bought, same deal, unfortunately I don't remember the models though neither are currently made any longer.  One was essentially a longer i5T that used two AA batteries.  The only light still going well is the Seeker2. 

Now I'm not certain whether I'm being fair or not to Olight here.  But I like my flashlights like me: stubborn and long lasting.  That first batch was fairly short lived.  For comparison I can pull up a 30+ year old Eveready lantern with the massive 6V battery that we still have around and still works and was used more aggressively than any of those Olights.  I have a several Mag-lites ranging from 3D down to AAA that are well older than 20 years that are doing just fine.  In both cases they are old incandescent bulbs so the light provided is far, far less, but the Mag-lites have seen far harder use as well. 

I own a really wide assortment of Olights, probably over 20 in all.  The amount of light they produce is impressive.  But durability is dubious to me.  Perhaps it is just a sign of the times with built in obsolescence being a feature rather than a bug.  But I want things to last like Leatherman/SAK/Mag-lite. 

[aicolainen]

I've got a bad collector gene so I buy more than I need. 

To a larger or smaller degree I think this sentence describe a lot of modern consumers - and that may go a long way to explain why the current market place looks like it does. A large consumer base buying more than they need creates incentive to produce sub par quality products, as many will never notice as items spends most of their time unused in drawers and shelves.

While there are two very distinct categories of consumers (at least) at play here; those who despite having more than they'll ever need, still want their next acquisitions to be good quality items that are dependable and lasts a long time(most here, I assume).
And secondly, those who only care about appearance and perception, who doesn't really care about quality and just want to appear as being on top of the trends and spend as little as possible in the process (let's call it the fast fashion crowd).
The first category obviously don't want to get tricked, but owning too much stuff we're susceptible to often not notice. With all the spotless, shiny knives I see people posting around forums and SOME, I think many won't ever notice if a knife blade stamped with a high end steel name, like CRU-WEAR or Elmax, actually was Chinese 8Cr13MoV.
The second category is less likely to even care as long as it looks the part and saves them money.
In both scenarios there is little incentive for a maker to put in the effort and resources to produce heirloom quality, as it's statistically unlikely to be appreciated or in many cases even noticed.

To make matters even worse (or better for makers that choose to skimp on quality), if a customer actually use their s**t and break their product after a short time - the technologies and trends move on so fast, many will just go buy the shiny new thing rather than bother the maker with complaints and repair requests.

To specifically make a comment on flashlights, and not in any way meant to defend Olight; modern LED flashlights are orders of magnitude more complicated designs than the incandescent Maglites of yesteryears.
This is quite effectively underscored by Maglite's own struggle to make reliable lights as they transitioned to LED technology.
That's not to say we should accept new tech to last significantly shorter, but it does mean we ideally should hold makers accountable when they sell bad products (rather than use it as excuse/justification to move on to the new fancy flavor of the day), so they're financially incentivized to develop more durable designs.

[Farmer X]

I want things to last like Leatherman/SAK/Mag-lite.

Me, too. If all goes well, I'll soon track down some bulbs for my Mag-Lites, which should fix them right up. If not, a trip back to the factory should. By contrast, I had a Streamlight Stylus Pro that didn't last half a dozen years. So I can understand your frustration/aggravation with Olight.

Those who only care about appearance and perception, who doesn't really care about quality and just want to appear as being on top of the trends and spend as little as possible in the process (let's call it the fast fashion crowd).

Getting back to topic, I 100% expect that the Benchmade knock-off is targeting that crowd.

[nate j]

There is a difference between value-engineering  to hit a certain price point (but being honest about the product), and deliberate misrepresentation (e.g. claiming M390 but using Chinese alphabet soup steel).  The former is acceptable, especially if the selling price reflects the quality.  The latter is unforgivable.



I also have some different expectations for different products…

A really good knife today will still be a really good knife in 10 years, or even 50 years, if it isn’t abused or worn out.


For flashlights, I agree that failure in 5 -6 years is unacceptable for brands that position themselves as mid-priced options.  If they had been cheap no-name lights, you would probably shrug and figure that you got your money’s worth.  Some people enjoy owning and using vintage lights, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with that.  But a great light today is unlikely to be an objectively great light in 20 years or even 10 years, due to advances in technology.  So, I’m less concerned about whether the flashlights I buy will last for decades.

It wasn’t so many years ago that flashlight bulbs had to be changed pretty regularly; now we have LEDs rated for 50,000 hours.  Likewise, I remember when 100 lumens was considered the standard for handheld tactical flashlights.  Now, we have keychain lights that will put out 100 lumens, and handheld tactical lights run into the thousands.

[aicolainen]

There is a difference between value-engineering  to hit a certain price point (but being honest about the product), and deliberate misrepresentation (e.g. claiming M390 but using Chinese alphabet soup steel).  The former is acceptable, especially if the selling price reflects the quality.  The latter is unforgivable.

From a business practice perspective I agree. From resource and sustainability perspective I find both unappealing, but like you say, one is objectively much worse.
Ofc value engineering isn't either or. It's a scale and every product is subject to it, so it's more about choosing a reasonable point on the scale for the product type, set a price point accordingly and be honest about the product.
I'm pleased that not every tool in the store is German precision engineered, high end and super expensive. Some tools I only need once in a blue moon and I'm unlikely to wear them out even if I compromise on quality. But if I get a set of drill bits that are soft as butter, the low price no longer matter. It doesn't meet a reasonable quality for the product type and is just a waste of resources and time.

But a great light today is unlikely to be an objectively great light in 20 years or even 10 years, due to advances in technology.  So, I’m less concerned about whether the flashlights I buy will last for decades.

I tend to disagree. The technology has matured to a point where further advances are just iterative. A top of the line Surefire from 20 years ago is almost ridiculously impractical and outshined compared to what we have now. The best lights we have today will still be just as practical and bright in 20 years. In that regard he brightness war in flashlights bears many similarities to the mega pixel race in digital cameras. Beyond a certain point very few will notice the difference or even be able to take advantage of the increase - and other properties of the camera will be more important.

It wasn’t so many years ago that flashlight bulbs had to be changed pretty regularly; now we have LEDs rated for 50,000 hours.  Likewise, I remember when 100 lumens was considered the standard for handheld tactical flashlights.  Now, we have keychain lights that will put out 100 lumens, and handheld tactical lights run into the thousands.

So true. I would definitely not go back to incandescent bulbs, the runtimes, brightness and longevity (of the emitter) is simply superior.
But there is no doubt a certain tradeoff in reliability. The old flashlights were very simple constructions. Not much to go wrong and if it did, it could usually be fixed even with very basic understanding of electric circuits. Something as simple as a light switch was probably the most complex component in the electric circuit and many lights didn't even have one. And yes, the bulbs didn't last nearly as long, but for most flashlights the lifetime was reasonable and they were easily replaceable. Again, I wouldn't go back to the old ways, but it's something to keep in mind when we let our safety rely on these relatively complex designs made to meet a very competitive price point. Redundancy is definitely something to consider.

[dks]

Since this is a flashlight thread, these days I have transitioned to, mainly, Sofirn. They seem pretty reliable so far and lower cost. Their own brand batteries are just OK.

You do not need to go for Anduril or other complicated functions if you want reliability.
A direct-drive light, with only one mode, should be as reliable as an older incandescent light, and have a less fragile emitter.

I have a couple of 2D maglites ST2D016, direct drive, with LED, from 2012 and they work fine despite being dropped a few times. Not exceptionally bright, but way brighter than the original maglites. They are still available, I think...

[buggs]

To a larger or smaller degree I think this sentence describe a lot of modern consumers - and that may go a long way to explain why the current market place looks like it does. A large consumer base buying more than they need creates incentive to produce sub par quality products, as many will never notice as items spends most of their time unused in drawers and shelves.

Really appreciate your points.  I wouldn't have though of many modern consumers fitting into that model that I think of myself as being in, but you raise a good point about differing types.  Much of the modern consumerism seems to be largely driven by social media and as such they aren't concerned with performance so much as having and being seen and getting recognition.  I follow a number of those types on social media out of interest, at the same time, I don't really have that urge to have my stuff seen beyond this board, so I'm not generating followers or becoming popular.  I'm more buying stuff I really like.  Sadly, for me, I can be motivated by a really good sale.  I certainly didn't need the last Benchmade I purchased but it was a damn good price. 

On the subject of my too many Olights, I think only three I own are still residing inside their boxes, unopened.  They tend to be the smaller things that Olight includes for free.  So everything I own has a place and a projected use.  Are they all absolutely necessary?  100% no.  I will say I am fascinated by the Olight user group on Facebook - those are serious collectors. 

I find myself in a funny place at the moment.  We'll be moving out of the city and I won't be at my old job any longer.  The city/job didn't really allow for the EDC aspect as I was in an office building.  Anything more than a SAK Classic and you get the "why are you carrying a weapon"?  Prior to working and through grad school I spent a ton of time in the bush and I plan to go back to doing that.  I think my many SAK/Benchmade/Leatherman tools will be getting a good field run and I'll be trimming the collection down quite a bit. 

Appreciate the others comments too, I found this discussion to be very interesting. 

[nate j]

I tend to disagree. The technology has matured to a point where further advances are just iterative. A top of the line Surefire from 20 years ago is almost ridiculously impractical and outshined compared to what we have now. The best lights we have today will still be just as practical and bright in 20 years. In that regard he brightness war in flashlights bears many similarities to the mega pixel race in digital cameras. Beyond a certain point very few will notice the difference or even be able to take advantage of the increase - and other properties of the camera will be more important.

I think there could still be very meaningful (as opposed to just incremental) improvements made in the future.  For one example, a limiting factor for some of today’s lights is heat buildup, so a step change in efficiency (generating significantly less heat at higher outputs) could be a major improvement.  For another example, if we could get smaller lights with the same performance (e.g. performance of today’s 1x21700 lights in a light the size of today’s 1x14500 lights), that would also be a game changer.

I do agree that the current trend of building lights to get the maximum output for a very short period in burst/turbo mode with a fully charged battery may not be the most practical for most users.  I don’t mind it too much, though, as long as the light has some other usable output modes.

Again, I wouldn't go back to the old ways, but it's something to keep in mind when we let our safety rely on these relatively complex designs made to meet a very competitive price point. Redundancy is definitely something to consider.

+1 for redundancy!

I always have at least two lights on me if I expect to need one.  And if going somewhere where having a light can be the difference between life and death (e.g.  spelunking), the rule is three or more (and extra batteries are fine, but do not count as a separate light source).

[David Bowen]

I admit the Chinese have come a long ways in terms of production quality. It has a lot to do with the fact that they realized people were willing to pay more money for quality product. Places like dollar stores and Walmart had places kicking things out for the lowest cost available. China may still have that stigma when it comes to the way the country is run but people are not shy about buying products made there. It's becomes less of a choice for consumer and and has become the norm.

When it comes to knives the production of high quality knives came from many companies and individuals asking for higher tolerance to the products being made. China seeing how these products sold had a eureka moment and they are continually pushing the envelope as a result. China has become a force to be reckoned with and it's scary. Consumers world wide, especially in my neck of the woods are not afraid to drop $$$ on knives that cost what American manufacturing costs. It's causing American manufacturers to find ways to cut costs themselves and offer products at more competitive prices. Take a look at the knives produced by Houge. They are creating incredible products at prices that are absolutely crazy. I don't know where all this is going but it's crazy to watch.

When it comes to the Freek that Grant bought, I've never seen a clone but those pics look eerily similar to my BM Freek. I have a couple clones and though they are good for the money they are nowhere near the quality of the OEM. I've got some friends who used to buy BM but buy the clones because of the price and the fact that if they lose it it's not that heartbreaking. If it wasn't for people pointing out that fakes exist some of us would definitely be buying them thinking they are the real thing.