Why lock blades?

[Old Boy]

I grew up using non-locking blades and using the proper tool for the job. So to me I never push a folder past it’s limits and view a lock as a safety back up.

So yeah totally agree with the post and feel like folks who get injured just suffered through some bad luck or overestimated the tool unfortunately.

[Ron Who]

If you handle knives on a daily basis you´re bound to cut yourself sooner or later... This is true for slipjoints and lockblades alike. The last time I cut myself seriously was through no faulty lock but rather through a user error. 

I like slipjoints and backlocks, and find neither unsafe when used properly. 
I don´t trust liner locks, especially since some manufacturers started adding extra locks to lock the liner lock. 

[Mechanickal]

A wooden spoon wielded by an angry grandma Has been used as a weapon against unruly kids more times than grandpas pocket knife, weather locking or slip joint....

Slippers...

Don't forget the slippers!

[Old Boy]

This whole post came about because this morning our daughter called and told us John, my son-in-law, had got his stitches out. He had cut himself quite badly while we were out there visiting for the new year, with one of his large lock blade one hand opening knives.

Just curious. What brand knife and type of lock was he using?

[ElevenBlade]

Just curious. What brand knife and type of lock was he using?

He mentioned Zero Tolerance Knives

[Old Boy]

He mentioned Zero Tolerance Knives

Thanks! Sorry must have missed in the thread. Interesting as ZT is a good brand. Must have been a frame lock. Maybe an early lock up so that it wasn’t  engaged enough? The only time I’ve heard of a framelocks fail is when tortured miserably.

[Sos24]

If you handle knives on a daily basis you´re bound to cut yourself sooner or later... This is true for slipjoints and lockblades alike. The last time I cut myself seriously was through no faulty lock but rather through a user error. 

I like slipjoints and backlocks, and find neither unsafe when used properly. 
I don´t trust liner locks, especially since some manufacturers started adding extra locks to lock the liner lock. 

I find this very true.  Proper use and safety are key with whatever type of knife you use.  Slip joints and sheath knives can bite if misused just like lock blades.  One of my worst cuts was a sheath knife, but as you said it was user fault not blade.

They can also all fail depending on quality and use.  I have even seen a sheath knife fail and a lock blade finish the job, but it was a matter of poor quality versus good quality not lock vs not.

[JBW1]

Slippers...

Don't forget the slippers!

 
Hair Brush, telephone cord, slippers, cooking spoons... all dangerous weapons that I was afraid of. Old timer stockman, never. Haha

[David]

@ElevenBlade quotes

By that estimation, a screwdriver, pencil, or guitar string can be a weapon too.

Indeed



The law of the place I live considers a OHO lockback a weapon, whereas a slipjoint is not.

I ask you. How is that BS?  If I venture out of my neighborhood and carry a OHO lockback I will be arrested for carrying a weapon.  If I carry a Vic Spartan, I won't.  Period

You can use your personal judgment, or you can go by what the law says.


cbl51 wasn't talking about the law. He crossed the line from talking about why locks to knives as tools or weapons.



However, calling BS on where somoene draws that line without drawing their own is nothing more than an ad hominem fallacy.

Your not the first nor will you be the last to tell me I'm full of it.   

 

[chip]

I grew up carrying slipjoints bought for pennies from the local corner shop at a very young age. I worked a Saturday job from 11 years old that had me using utility knives, saws and chisels and handling broken glass.

I carry a slippie when out because the law dictates I can not carry a lock knife with out good reason.
But if I could I would.

Here in the uk we have a big problem with young men stabbing each other an they are not using locking folders. They are using large kitchen knives and zombie knives.

What I do see though on YouTube reviews for knives by people in the USA is they do sometimes discuss a knifes suitability in a self defence capability.

People like what they like and if that’s ZTs with tiger stripes that’s all good.

I used to have a girlfriend who collected cavalry swords.

 

[Aloha]

Maybe its the locking mechanism that temps those who would be tempted to push the knife?  I don't think we are comparing a fixed blade to any folder that has a locking mechanism ?  Ok I'll continue. 

Could it be that the rural generation who carried both fixed and slippie had bases covered?  There are knives from the 15th C that had locking features and I'm sure there are many more looking back.  I think it was the 60s that really spawned the locking mechanism with Bucks lock back.  I'm a fan of lock back knives.  Our MTs have liner locks so I tend to take it easy on it.  I've mentioned time and time again I like to take a fixed blade with me to work.  I'll do chores with my MT blade but the harder stuff is taken up with my fixed.

From my reading, the Tactical knives got their start in the early 90s.  Really taking steam from that point on to present day.  Why the lock?   Its as mentioned earlier, its a stop gap.  It there to provide a level of safety tho not to dissuade one from safe practices.  Aside from known lock failures I'd say unsafe knife usage is the number one reason accidents happen.  I am sorry your SIL got hurt by what is very well marketed as a hard use knife. 

I was trying to say earlier with my description of my upbringing, that not of us have mentors to teach them about knives.  There were no men ( very few ) who hunted or fished or did stuff with knives that us young boys could learn from.  No scouts for us inner city kids either.  Our introduction to knives were our moms use in the preparation of food. 

I did watch shows and read magazines depicting knives but those were never tools sad to say.  Maybe one of my reasons for liking fixed blades are my comfort level ( chef for 15 years ) and love of the outdoors ( as an adult ).  While a SAK is a wonderful tool I love having a small fixed blade on my even at home.  My Izula or Rat 3 and most recent Benchmade have been on my hip when I am home.  I like the old-timers cbl speaks of likes my bases covered.  I don't carry much when leaving the house.  Squirt and slippie were my companions today.  Tomorrow I'll head to the mountains for a hike so a 111mm SAK and fixed blade will come along. 

Why a lock on a folder?  Innovation seems to be the best answer so far given.  Its neither for or against slippies which to my way of thinking is how I like things.  Theres no agenda per se.  Yes the makers will proclaim they have hard use folders but in the end it the end user that has to decide howe they will use the knife.  Carry what you will and as always practice safe knife usage.  If it folds, it'll fold.  Heck even a fixed blade can fail ( break ) point is, be safe always.

   

[Gerhard Gerber]

I'm not that old, my first knives were also slip joints, but a locking knife in the form of a Buck knock-off were for sure the next step, and for sure a step up.

With the modern steels, materials, construction methods and locking mechanisms these knives can be incredibly strong, they don't need to be in order to be a good knife, but it is a good thing!

The ability to sharpen a knife is probably worth more than all these wonderful things

[Ray S]

I just finished reading all the responses to the original post and re-read that one and at the risk of re-igniting the furor,I would like to offer some observations:
First of all he states that his son-in-law was doing "landscape" whatever that may mean. Was he attempting to trim tree branches with the knife? Was he digging holes in the ground to plant shrubs? I ask this only because that very statement suggests that he may have not been using the knife for it's intended purpose.
He also did not mention(at least I didn't see it)as to the type of knife being used. Someone mentioned that it was a Zero Tolerance knife.I am not familiar with that model but have heard the name before and haven't heard anything bad about it.
This is not to say that it could have been the fault of the knife;it could have had a catastrophic failure of the lock or the back spring;any number of events could have occurred.
I would wonder if indeed it was a name brand and not a "Pacific Rim" clone which seems to be rampant these days.There is virtually no knife of any repute that hasn't been cloned.
Another possibility is misuse which I believe is the culprit here.From what the post states,the user didn't appear to be very knowledgeable about knives. It is akin to someone going out to hunt an elephant with a .22 rifle. The argument could be made that it IS a rifle and it WILL kill(something),but not necessarily what you are hunting for.
It can be compared to driving an automobile.You put on your seat belt;you let the car warm up a bit;you test the brakes;you look both ways before you back out of the driveway or pull away from the curb;when you are driving along you look from side to side and in your rear view mirror to assess the conditions around you. You DON'T blast down the road at far above the posted speed limit while listening to the latest head banging music at bed wetting volume and texting your girl friend all at once. Before too long you are going to do way more damage than cutting your fingers.
Having been using and hopefully not abusing(too badly)edged tools since the age of 10,I have had many instances of being cut;sometimes severely,and virtually every instance was caused by "user negligence".
I have enclosed a picture of an incident that happened to my oldest son(who is almost 50)awhile back. He had one of those "inexpensive" Pacific Rim folders clipped to his pants pocket and it opened slightly(due to it's questionable construction)while he was pulling up his pants. Luckily the incision was superficial as he is on blood thinners to combat blood clots in his lungs.
And on that note I will cease this diatribe and go put on the popcorn.

[Marcellus]

Always a quaint story.

Limited data to discredit locking blades.

Lock backs when used carefully are safer to open, use,  and close  IMO.

I wonder if the WWII vets would have accepted a well made quality knife like a Spyderco Delica if they were are given one to test out.

PS I carry traditionals mainly myself.


Edit: I do agree the knife companies are churning up sales,  but that is what" for profit " Enterprises do.  The buyer can refuse to purchase  the latest offerings.

[VICMAN]

Nicely stated Ray!

[Gerhard Gerber]

I wonder if the WWII vets would have accepted a well made quality knife like a Spyderco Delica if they were are given one to test out.

I've often wondered what my farmer grandfather would've made of one of my better Spydercos, compared to his old knives one would've lasted a life time. 

[JBW1]

Pretty cool scar out of it at least

[Aloha]

As this discussion carries on I do think its a very interesting question, what would our grandfathers or your grandfathers think of these current (locking) knives?  I think a great many already answered or at least some, the Buck 110  .

Theres nothing wrong with liking a good ole slip joint.  I've come to very much appreciate them.  Unlike our SAKs they come in a wide range of handle covers which for me is a nice thing.  The patterns are far and wide as well.  There have been several discussions on locking folding knives.  After all the reading and understanding each view point I've come to the middle ground of, we like what we like.  Many come full circle, some harken back to their good ole days, some like me are discovering traditional folders for the first time, and as we might imagine a whole lot of other reasons. 

Looking back at innovation for a second, Buck 110 was primarily for hunting.  You could carry a good sized hunting blade half the size of a fixed.  These were well received and and arguably one of the strongest locks for a folder.  I looked to videos to see if anyone posted a failed lock by a Buck 110 and non seem to pop up.  Ok in full disclosure there was one but I am not certain this would qualify IMO.

As innovation continued we saw the pocket clip and OHO knife developed.  Lighter strong materials and super steels.  IMO this is not a bad thing.   
     

[Nix]

I wonder how many injuries have occurred simply from foolishness?  Having been in the kitchens cooking and around knives I have seen some cuts happen.  It usually rushing or a momentary loss of attention. 

 

I've only injured myself with a knife 1028 times*.  I can attest to the fact that in each case I was either being careless, inattentive, or foolish.



*OK, not including being cut on barbed wire, broken glass, or pointy tree branches.

[JBW1]

I believe that at least some our grandpappies would have been happy with a pocket clip and locking blade if it existed, or anything they could have afforded at that time weather or not it was locking. I don’t believe it was PURE choice for most to own a slip joint, but It’s just what was available then. I’d bet Everyone has had injuries of some sort with blades at some point, Even if it was in the 20’s. My grandpa is in his 90’s and bought a PST when they came out, Still carries the Wave gen.1 to this day (sheath carry). I’d bet he would have bought one if he could have years before. He gave me his worn out PST years ago,and is what gave me the love and fascination with MTs.  Thanks gramps!

[Ray S]

For what it's worth I believe my grandfather would have liked a lock back knife very much.I have two of his knives(both Imperial scout utility models)and both of them are difficult to open at best.The springs are very strong and they have a tendency to snap to the closed position shortly after reaching the halfway position. I know this first hand because one of them nearly amputated my finger when I was eight years old.I removed it from the drawer where it was kept(without authorization)and was attempting to open it when this occurred.The only reason I didn't get a whipping for my misdeed was he was too busy trying to stop the bleeding.
On another note(I believe I have mentioned this before)there is one model of lockback that is the absolute worst design I have ever seen and that is a Benchmark Rolox. Designed by a very famous knife designer(Walter,"Blackie" Collins)who has designed many knives this one was his one failure in my humble opinion.
For those not familiar with it,the knife is opened by pressing down on a serrated portion of the blade tang which raises the blade out of the well and allows it to slide forward and locks into the open position. To close it,a normal style lock tab(located on the bottom of the knife rather than the top)is depressed lifting the blade and then gripping the blade sliding it back until it drops back into the well.
Sounds like a great design right? WRONG! If you are using the knife and cutting heavy material such as cardboard your baby finger rests right on the lock release which will trigger and cause the blade to move rapidly toward the closed position.This usually results in the web of skin between your thumb and forefinger being trapped between the blade tang and the knife frame. Don't ask how I know this!
Here are some pictures of the knife and it's operation

[Ray S]

And this picture shows where your finger rests while using the knife.

[Vidar]

I used to keep a little museum of tidbits that tried to maim or kill me. As it filled up it got depressing to look at though. I've certainly cut myself, set myself on fire, electrocuted myself hairless with 400v, dropped molten metal in my pants, had aluminium blocks flying around my head, washing my face with acid and sitting next to some radioactive stone for the better part of two hours.

There are more, but the point is they were all user fault at some level - but not only that. Many were also in part the result of bad design, badly setup workplace or products failing to live up to their promise. Like the post above where the lock can be accidentially unlocked, or some failed locking folders I have that have issues with either not engaging the lock properly in the first place or just failing very easily.

We all make mistakes, and some products makes us more prone to that than others. And some products just plain fails. But a working lock in itself is a good thing - I just don't want to rely on it.

[Rapidray]

Ray - that is one cool looking knife. Even if it is a bad design, it is a great part of knife history! 

[toolguy]

And this picture shows where your finger rests while using the knife.

I have one of those Ray.It's a "First Edition" Lightweight Viper.

Mine will not unlock under those same conditions.Perhaps the wood scales have the cut-out too deep.

I have some other of Blackie Collins designs he did for Gerber.

[cody6268]

No real preference here, and for many larger folders, I might as well go fixed blade.   

But then again, there goes another quality. Locks that are more likely to get you hurt than they are to prevent a blade closing up on you. Part of the reason I only recently got interested in tactical folders was that I bought (and was mostly actually given) Frosts as a kid whose locks lasted about a week before failing.

Anyone know how safe a Neely lock is under real use? I've been looking at the Timberlite with that style of lock for quite some time. As I understand, the blade is pulled out to unlock.

[Ray S]

I have one of those Ray.It's a "First Edition" Lightweight Viper.

Mine will not unlock under those same conditions.Perhaps the wood scales have the cut-out too deep.

I have some other of Blackie Collins designs he did for Gerber.

Is the Viper the smaller version? I know they made them in a couple of sizes.I have another one with Micarta handles andfor some reason the false edge is ground on the opposite side of the blade.It does the same thing.
I have several Blackie Collins designed knives(Gerber and Benchmark)that are really great knives. I appreciate his genius in designs.

[toolguy]

Is the Viper the smaller version? I know they made them in a couple of sizes.I have another one with Micarta handles andfor some reason the false edge is ground on the opposite side of the blade.It does the same thing.
I have several Blackie Collins designed knives(Gerber and Benchmark)that are really great knives. I appreciate his genius in designs.

It must be the smaller version.It measures 3  7/8" closed.It is the "First Run Edition" "One of 500".

I have a Benchmark catalog from about 1983-84.I'll try to find it soon.

[Ray S]

Anyone know how safe a Neely lock is under real use? I've been looking at the Timberlite with that style of lock for quite some time. As I understand, the blade is pulled out to unlock.

I can only go by the smaller Timberlite knives but I would question the strength of a knife that does not use metal liners.The small ones I have are too small for any serious work.

[Gerhard Gerber]

There's a video I watched a while ago where the guy batons a CS Voyager (IIRC) into a tree horizontally then tries to break the handle by pulling down on it, and breaks the blade with some extreme bending.

A tri-ad lock folder is not a fixed blade, but if your tool requirement is a knife that you use to cut, it's a compact and very capable package.

As far as that video goes a fixed blade could have failed at exactly the same place.