Self defense Folder, deployment method.

[Kampfer]

Let's say you carry a folder for self defense, do you believe one hand open is absolutely necessary?
What is your favorite deployment method? thumb stub, hole, assist, wave?
Do you think such method is totally reliable under pressure in a split of second?
Or old fashion two hand open is more reliable?

[Aloha]

In close proximity deployment say bad guy is closing the distance from say 5 feet then my Emerson Mini Commander is FAAAAAAST.  If we are talking walking down street and see bad guys and as we pass they attack from 5-10 feet then auto/assist/wave is gonna be pretty fast and hard to beat.  I have seen guy whip out Spydies quick as heck.  I use pepper spray and usually have it in hand concealed when walking at night in city areas or parking garages.   

[JAfromMn]

I know very little about self defense.

but I do know
Repetition and dedicated pockets works.

i prefer the spyder hole but that doesn't matter nearly as much as dedicated pocket carry and muscle memory.

i treat my light and tool the same way. There always in there place and my body knows where if I'm in a panic.

[comis]

This is probably going to be a Pandora's box topic...

Let's say you carry a folder for self defense, do you believe one hand open is absolutely necessary?
Yes, for sure.


What is your favorite deployment method? thumb stub, hole, assist, wave?
I am not a big believer in folding knives use in "self defense" situation.  But if I have to choose one, something that could be opened dual hand with ease and good/solid early lockup.


Do you think such method is totally reliable under pressure in a split of second?
Not always, and that's part of the reason why I am not a big believer in 'folding knives' self defense.  But as most of these arguments will go, if it is a live or dead situation, you will probably use whatever at hand and having one is better than none(since you are likely to die anyway).


Or old fashion two hand open is more reliable?
Reliable is all relative(stress level/sweat/gloves...), but knife is a close range weapon and I can't think of any reason why anyone would want a two-hand opening knife instead of one-hand opening.

[glorn]

I do not own any bladed weapons. I only own tools.


I cannot participate in a discussion that would help perpetuate the myth that my tools are meant to be used as a weapon.

I can make a weapon of a lot of things within my reach. But I cannot cut open a bag or drive a Phillips screw with a sock full of nickels.

[Styerman]

I go back a long way on this issue , ( military and LE , and private security )  since the early seventies . I've carried FB's , folding hunters , boot knives , modern type folders etc , etc. Only one actual experience - used a Buck 110 as a fist load , it worked . A Mini Maglite would have done equally well , had they existed at the time . I have pre deployed a few times , thank God non consumated .

You will need empty handed skills , plus the ability to use the unopened folder as an impact weapon ( better to stop the Smurf slide at that point ) .

In north America ( a gun culture ) , nothing will drive a Jury Snake Smurf quicker than using a blade . Then again , better judged by 12 , than carried by six .

Chris

[RT1969]

Hm, a very pointy topic. As the mods had more than 24 hours to react but did not, I guess it is ok to post my thoughts here.

First: There is no self-defence knife.
I say there is not one knife intended and able to be a reliable self defence weapon.
This begins with the fact, that a knife is a tool, a blade weapon would be a dagger, stillet, etc. A knife could only be an improvised edged weapon, imo.

That aside, edged weapons are terrible as a self defense implement: You have to go into melée, there is no non-/less-lethal way to use it and they are not really defensive: You can stab, slash, etc., but at most you could block an attack if you have a hand guard. And I am not sure that would help you much.

They can be used as an offensive weapon, though:

You notice how fast this happens? You might shock the attacker somehow and make a runner, but I doubt you could counter-attack with a folding knife.

Only viable self-defense situation I see for a knife is when you are threatend, but have time to prepare and flight is not an option. Stupid example: Terrorists hijack your plane and you have your knive on you, ambushing them. But think about that: While in the big scale, you are defending your live, in the small scale you are now the attacker from the video!

All these aside, I would emphasise a good grip and sturdy lock. I chose the (Carson-)Flipper, as this often implements a finger guard, improving your grip and I say it is easier to deploy than Spyderhole/Thumbstud.

If you want something for your protection, better invest in a Taser, pepperspray, etc. in my opinion. All of these will incapacitate an attacker faster and more reliable than a knife and hopefully will spare you a homicide/manslaughter charge.

(I hope I am not stepping too hard on your toes with my post, Kampfer.)

[Styerman]

Just to add yet another ingredient : most unarmed defences are Smurf . Most victims don't know a blade was involved till long after the event . Most shootings occur at 1.5-3 M. , the old saws about not taking a knife to a gunfight are Smurf. All classes of knife wielders are very dangerous , be they skilled , semi skilled , or highly skilled . This is pretty much why the Cops in North America , if not the world , are allowed to shoot them on sight . Studies coming out of some violent jurisdictions , indicate stabs to the center of mass generate about 12% fatalities , ( not very different from pistol shots ) .

They are a bad lethal force option , but then again so are all the others . Pepper spray is a joke , on anyone but Yuppies , Tasers and similar devices have failed many times . Pistols are problematical , if you factor in the "Dead man's five seconds " .

Good luck ,

You are on your own .
Chris

P.S. My personal choice would be the nearly universally banned Blackjack/Sap . They weren't banned due to lack of results .

[dmanuel]

I travel a lot and have had the great opportunity to live in a few different countries. I've used my knife (an Emerson Karambit and an Emerson CQC-13) 3 times to save my own butt while in Central and South America. All three times it was only used as a deterrent though, being able to have it out, open, and at the ready lightning fast made the aggressor realize that I probably had more experience and training than he wanted to deal with. Twice was someone pulling out a traditional slip joint that required two hands to open and once was someone reaching behind their back for a pistol at close quarters. For anyone who doesn't know, if someone reaches behind their back or to their opposite side for a crossdraw just push your hand against their elbow and they won't be able to remove it. That little bit and my blade opening up before it reached his throat convinced him that it was ok to give me his pistol instead of trying to rob me. In the US I would give a robber everything I had on me, but in that particular country they will murder you for a Nokia because it's easy to catch a thief but almost impossible to nail a murderer with no witnesses.

So all of that being said, when I can't carry a pistol and I have a reason to worry about security I will always carry one of my Emerson folding knives.

[Styerman]

Knowing K bits as I do , if someone pulled one on me I'd run like hell . However if someone is high , drunked up /adrenalized , they will probably think you are bitch slapping them - until they notice they are leaking ( 30-60 seconds later ) .

Btw I'm an Emerson fan , and EDC a Mini 7 . It's a nice small classic EDC tool .

Chris

[lister]

I do not own any bladed weapons. I only own tools.


I cannot participate in a discussion that would help perpetuate the myth that my tools are meant to be used as a weapon.

I can make a weapon of a lot of things within my reach. But I cannot cut open a bag or drive a Phillips screw with a sock full of nickels.

What he said. 

[pfrsantos]

I don't have self-defense knives. If I were to get any, it would be these:

[Grant Lamontagne]

Self defense is an odd discussion- there are forums that are 100% dedicated to it, and others that are dedicated to certain types of defense.  It's a huge topic, and a lot of it is not based on fact simply because not a lot of people have enough practical knowledge to discuss it properly.  There are a lot of armchair ninjas out there insisting they are experts.

I am not an expert.  I am (or was!) a fairly small guy who survived working high risk security jobs and the doors of many bars for years.  I know what has worked for me, in the situations I was in.  I have used a knife very rarely for defense, and usually when I did it was as a fist load.  This was very effective for me as I can use all the help I can get on the occasions when I hit someone. 

For the most part I have had the most luck with charging an opponent (shooting if you are an MMA fan), picking them up and dropping them.  The sudden sense of motion disorients most opponents and hitting the ground usually stuns them.  This gives you an opportunity to get away, disarm them or continue on to the next target.  But, you have to be fast and ready to do it.

Will this work for you?  Maybe, maybe not, depending on your situation, body type, experience, ability, mindset and environment. 

In many cases you are just as likely to be hit in the back of the head, and by the time you realize what has happened the attacker is long gone with whatever they wanted from you in the first place.  Crime is all about efficiency.  If criminals wanted to work hard for their money they'd have normal jobs.  If they start realizing intimidation and threats don't work (ie victim can fight back) they graduate to a blitzkrieg attack- hit them when they aren't ready and take what you want when they are down.

As for a knife, well, I believe in using what you have handy.  I will carry a knife for every day needs like opening mail, cutting string etc.  If I ever need it in a fight I will be glad to have it, but then I will use anything at all that I can get my hands on.  As for the lethality, well, if they insist on Full Service, give them Full Service.

Def

[RT1969]

I travel a lot and have had the great opportunity to live in a few different countries. I've used my knife (an Emerson Karambit and an Emerson CQC-13) 3 times to save my own butt while in Central and South America. All three times it was only used as a deterrent though, being able to have it out, open, and at the ready lightning fast made the aggressor realize that I probably had more experience and training than he wanted to deal with(....)
So all of that being said, when I can't carry a pistol and I have a reason to worry about security I will always carry one of my Emerson folding knives.

Thank you for sharing your experience and good that you made it out alive! That sounded scary just reading it. 

I like the bold part the most: You used what was avaiable, according to the situation. In fact, I like your whole post. In most countries, the best way would be to hand your money/mobile/watch... over but you explained why that was not an option.
If I may ask: Do you see these knives as a weapon, or as a cutting tool that can be used as a weapon? Do you also use them for normal cutting task, or do you reserve them for self-defense?
(And just to clarify: Though I stated my slightly contradicting opinion, I am really open for everyones views. I enjoy this discussion which would be impossible on some german forums in such an open way. Or at all.  )

[Aloha]

Knives are tools IMO they have always been tools.  I don't carry my knife for any other purpose than to do my job. 

The Original Question was "Let's say you carry a folder for self defense, do you believe one hand open is absolutely necessary?"

The faster you can deploy any defensive the better!  Be it a knife, stick, pepper spray, belt, rock, whatever you can get your hands on.  I have told my girls the one thing they cannot do is be taken to a secondary location.  If its a robbery then my girls have a "dummy wallet" in their purses that have a few single and old gift cards.  They are instructed to toss the wallet to either side of the robber and run like hell. 

If they are grabbed then they are to go all out and flail like a Marlin on a fishing reel. 
I have stated before that situational awareness is always key, but smurf happens so be prepared.   

[dmanuel]

I travel a lot and have had the great opportunity to live in a few different countries. I've used my knife (an Emerson Karambit and an Emerson CQC-13) 3 times to save my own butt while in Central and South America. All three times it was only used as a deterrent though, being able to have it out, open, and at the ready lightning fast made the aggressor realize that I probably had more experience and training than he wanted to deal with(....)
So all of that being said, when I can't carry a pistol and I have a reason to worry about security I will always carry one of my Emerson folding knives.

Thank you for sharing your experience and good that you made it out alive! That sounded scary just reading it. 

I like the bold part the most: You used what was avaiable, according to the situation. In fact, I like your whole post. In most countries, the best way would be to hand your money/mobile/watch... over but you explained why that was not an option.
If I may ask: Do you see these knives as a weapon, or as a cutting tool that can be used as a weapon? Do you also use them for normal cutting task, or do you reserve them for self-defense?
(And just to clarify: Though I stated my slightly contradicting opinion, I am really open for everyones views. I enjoy this discussion which would be impossible on some german forums in such an open way. Or at all.  )

In my opinion both a Bowie and a Karambit are weapons, they are not tools. They were both born and bred for one thing and that is fighting. While some see all blades as tools first and improvised weapons second I see these two as weapons first and improvised tools. Though the Karambit does not see use as a tool because of its tip design (super easy to break it).

The last encounter was the one that really worried me, not because of the pistol but because the guy had MS13 tattoos on his face that I couldn't make out until we were breathing in each others face and the (likely dirty) cops that insisted on arresting me for trying to rob him. The last thing that I needed was the cops turning over my personal information to an MS13 member that might want another try at me. Needless to say I found a new town to live in quickly.

[Aloha]

@dmanuel that's some scary smurf.  I stand corrected with regard to some knives being born and bred for a certain purposes.  I have neither of those knives you mention and only recently became aware of the Karambit.

When I was younger I carried homemade Nunchacks and over several months became pretty good and whirling them around.  I tucked them into my pants like Bruce Lee and would practice whipping them out and going through a whole routine.  Over and over again whipping them out until I was very good. 

I lived in an area with many gang members and at a time when crack hit our area pretty hard.  We had "base" heads and dealers and wanabe's pretty much hanging about daily.  I was going to a friends to swim and took a short cut thru the alley way when I heard a voice say "hey look".  When I turned it was a gang banger and some friends coming into the alley towards me.  I instinctively whipped out my Nunchacks and began my routine.  Thankfully none had guns so all was good as they just froze as I yelled "I may not get you all but the first mothersmurfer that comes near me is gonna get smurfed up!" as I walked backwards exiting the alley way. 

 

[captain spaulding]

Then again , better judged by 12 , than carried by six .

Chris

Admitting I did not read this thread thoroughly or completely as I will later one thing did stand out to me that I was going to mention anyways. This ^^^^^

I rather plead my case to a court then be dead and not have a chance.

[Tomahawk Rob]

As glorn said, my knives are tools. Sometime you need an open blade in a hurry and only one hand is available. My choice is wave opening, much faster than automatics or thumb studs.

[Cupboard]

If I carried a knife for self defence I'd want something fast opening but not one that might accidentally injure inadvertently so I think I'd for for something like a flipper and avoid anything with a spring.

However, I think I'd be more likely to just carry a nice, light, useful knife and run away if it ever came to it. If I wanted to carry something defensive I'd carry my torch, blind the attacker, kick them in the nuts and run.

[comis]

If I carried a knife for self defence I'd want something fast opening but not one that might accidentally injure inadvertently so I think I'd for for something like a flipper and avoid anything with a spring.

However, I think I'd be more likely to just carry a nice, light, useful knife and run away if it ever came to it. If I wanted to carry something defensive I'd carry my torch, blind the attacker, kick them in the nuts and run.

I know this is going to be another hot topic, but I always doubt the connotation of using a 'flashlight' in the manner of 'flash-n-hit'.  I know it is totally cliche, but my view on this kind of topic is if you could over come or break even with an opponent bare-handed, then the improvised weapon may work in your advantage, if not, then it could just be another wild card in play.

Flashing someone in a dark area, when you and opponent's eyes are dark adjusted, will also dampen your own vision.  Unless you intend to keep the lights on, it may be a little hard to navigate after the flash when escaping full speed.  The easiest way to test this is to find an unfamiliar dark room with furniture, flash a blank room 1-2 feet in front of you then turn around and try to run away full speed.  It makes great entertainment at night. 

[Styerman]

In the case of a "brewing " confrontation , where one can anticipate thing going south , I would prefer discrete two hand opening , or low profile( quiet ) opening behind the right leg . If rapid response was needed , - I'd use the wave .

Chris

[jekostas]

I don't carry knives for self-defense and I would probably never draw one (should I be carrying) in such a situation.

Knives have crappy range, are reliant on fine motor skills (folders more than fixed blades), lack stopping power, and last but definitely not least, are considered lethal force weapons just about everywhere on the planet.

I'd much rather use my brain to avoid a confrontation, or at least a really good pair of running shoes.  In the absolute "must do something" situation (a situation that almost never happens, statistically, unless it's part of your job) I'd want a bright flashlight or a good weighty piece of pipe, in that order.

In the case of a "brewing " confrontation , where one can anticipate thing going south , I would prefer discrete two hand opening , or low profile( quiet ) opening behind the right leg . If rapid response was needed , - I'd use the wave .

Chris

This is a really grey area.  Besides the legality of drawing a knife, it's an act that can escalate a confrontation from "puffing out your chest" to "well this guy (or girl) and 5 of their friends are waiting for you around the corner with baseball bats".

Flashing someone in a dark area, when you and opponent's eyes are dark adjusted, will also dampen your own vision.  Unless you intend to keep the lights on, it may be a little hard to navigate after the flash when escaping full speed.  The easiest way to test this is to find an unfamiliar dark room with furniture, flash a blank room 1-2 feet in front of you then turn around and try to run away full speed.  It makes great entertainment at night. 

Flashlights are directional, so unless the person you're shining a light at throws a mirror up at the last second this simply isn't true.  Shining a flashlight in tight confines as opposed to a street are very different situations due to ambient light and the lack of reflective surfaces.

[cbl51]

If I were insane enough to use a knife as a self defense weapon, I sure as hades would not use a folder. In a criminal attack, you are not going to have the time to draw, let alone open a folder. I don't care what kind of flipper or assisted opening knife it is, an experienced street criminal that has sotted and decided to mug you, is going to spring an attack from close range by surprise. You may stand a ghost of a chance with a fixed blade knife that is easy to get at, but then you face a whole different can of worms.

There's no winner in a knife fight. One goes to the morgue, the other goes to the ER, maybe to survive, maybe not. That's if the other guy has a knife and you're dumb enough to pull one too. If he has a buddy or accomplice standing by as lookout, that guy may see you pull a knife, and he panics and pulls that old Davis .380 and shoots you.

But lets say the other guy is just some drunk picking a fight, and you stab an unarmed man. Then you're really in the soup. If you think that idiot who shot the Martin kid down in Florida was raked over the coals for putting a single bullet into an unarmed assailant, wait till you see what they do to you for repeatedly stabbing/slashing an unarmed attacker. And you will have to repeatedly stab because a knife has piss poor shock effect and stopping power. It's going to take a while for him to bleed out.

There is absolutely no good that can come from pulling knife if things look dicey. No matter what happens, you will end up in either the morgue, ER, or court on very very serious charges, with lawyer fees that will take you the next 40 years to pay off. Or the guy you stab's buddy will pull a gun and shoot you.

I see these posts often and I can only wonder how old are the posters? Knives are fun to play with, interesting to collect, and useful. I couldn't open a UPS box without one very easily. But carrying one around for the use of self defense is both juvenile and not to bright. That's what they make pepper spray, collapsable batons, Maglight flashlights, and most of all firearms for. With 40 of the 50 states having CCW now, it's way easier to carry a small handgun with the state sanctioned license. You may get away in court using a gun to defend yourself, but use a knife and they will cast you as the wacko criminal. A stick of some sort is way better than any knife. It can block, defend, and if need be break the attackers hand or wrist bones and stop the attack. Nobody has any sympathy for some low life that gets his arm broken trying to mug someone, but kill the same low life by stabbing him, and he'll have family members coming out of the woodwork with some storefront lawyer, claiming that he was singing in the church choir when he was a kid, and he was kind to his grandmother. Then they sue you for a few million dollars in civil court, and break you.

If for some reason, you can't carry a gun, like in NYC, the UK, or whatever, it's best to use some normal everyday object like a stout walking stick/cane, crescent wrench, pool stick, golf club, baseball bat, anything but a knife, and just bash the crappola out of the guy. If they question you why you have the pool stick, you were on the way down to play some pool. A cane? you are having some back trouble from an old sports injury. A wrench? Had some car trouble this boring and forgot it was in your back pocket. You'll get in a lot less trouble. Save the knife for cleaning that nice fish for dinner or breaking down that cardboard box for recycle.

[JAfromMn]

My best defensive has always been leaving. Sometimes Quickly 

[jekostas]

Lotsa words

Well said and I generally agree.

My best defensive has always been leaving. Sometimes Quickly 

It's the quickest, fastest and most intelligent option.

The truth of the matter is that unless your job entails personal confrontation (ex. Def talking about being a bouncer), 95%+ of violent encounters aren't random.  There are factors that lead in to them, and in so many cases one or both parties are letting their egos get the better of them.  There's no shame in swallowing your pride and backing down.

This isn't meant to be an insult to Kampfer, but it's the reason I generally dislike threads of this nature.  We're essentially imagining the (extremely rare) situation where we're both justified and able to use a knife/gun/etc. for self-defense.

[comis]

There's no winner in a knife fight. One goes to the morgue, the other goes to the ER, maybe to survive, maybe not. That's if the other guy has a knife and you're dumb enough to pull one too. If he has a buddy or accomplice standing by as lookout, that guy may see you pull a knife, and he panics and pulls that old Davis .380 and shoots you.

Totally agree, no further truth than this.

Flashing someone in a dark area, when you and opponent's eyes are dark adjusted, will also dampen your own vision.  Unless you intend to keep the lights on, it may be a little hard to navigate after the flash when escaping full speed.  The easiest way to test this is to find an unfamiliar dark room with furniture, flash a blank room 1-2 feet in front of you then turn around and try to run away full speed.  It makes great entertainment at night. 

Flashlights are directional, so unless the person you're shining a light at throws a mirror up at the last second this simply isn't true.  Shining a flashlight in tight confines as opposed to a street are very different situations due to ambient light and the lack of reflective surfaces.

Certainly, and the 'target' to flash on is not stationary too.

Pardon me to even suggest this silly experiment, and I agree there are probably dozens of factors in play, and any 'discussion' on those are merely academic.  What essentially the message I trying to convey is there are no certainty on how effective the 'flash-hit-run' will work, and to think the opponent/criminal is going to stand still/dumbfounded after the flash is wishful thinking.  Afterall, it is a flashlight, not a flashbang.

Back to the knife survival, I have trained with friends who served in military/police force/security detail around the world, and I have yet to meet someone who has a good knife fight story to tell.  Most are just thankful to walk away ok.  As I previously said in some other threads, the best kind of self defense/survival for me is situation awareness, plan ahead and avoid confrontation.  Sometimes "throwing away your wallet and run the other way" may hurt your ego, but I am sure you and your family will agree your life worth more than the ego and wallet combined.

[dmanuel]

To each their own and all that, but I know, 100%, that without my Karambit I would be dead. With it not a drop of blood was shed and we both got to part ways. It worked for me on a few occasions and those few occasions could have cost me my life, one most certainly would have. I'm glad I had one and glad that I have had the training (Military, PPS, Silat, and Kali).

[Styerman]

I don't carry knives for self-defense and I would probably never draw one (should I be carrying) in such a situation.

Knives have crappy range, are reliant on fine motor skills (folders more than fixed blades), lack stopping power, and last but definitely not least, are considered lethal force weapons just about everywhere on the planet.

I'd much rather use my brain to avoid a confrontation, or at least a really good pair of running shoes.  In the absolute "must do something" situation (a situation that almost never happens, statistically, unless it's part of your job) I'd want a bright flashlight or a good weighty piece of pipe, in that order.

In the case of a "brewing " confrontation , where one can anticipate thing going south , I would prefer discrete two hand opening , or low profile( quiet ) opening behind the right leg . If rapid response was needed , - I'd use the wave .

Chris

This is a really grey area.  Besides the legality of drawing a knife, it's an act that can escalate a confrontation from "puffing out your chest" to "well this guy (or girl) and 5 of their friends are waiting for you around the corner with baseball bats".

Flashing someone in a dark area, when you and opponent's eyes are dark adjusted, will also dampen your own vision.  Unless you intend to keep the lights on, it may be a little hard to navigate after the flash when escaping full speed.  The easiest way to test this is to find an unfamiliar dark room with furniture, flash a blank room 1-2 feet in front of you then turn around and try to run away full speed.  It makes great entertainment at night. 

Flashlights are directional, so unless the person you're shining a light at throws a mirror up at the last second this simply isn't true.  Shining a flashlight in tight confines as opposed to a street are very different situations due to ambient light and the lack of reflective surfaces.

[Styerman]

Situational awareness is the best approach , however , nobody is infallable . A blade is quite a viable weapon , when you consider most civilian shootings are at 1.5 - 3 m. ( remember the "Tuller Drill " , which indicates the need for a 10 21' -10m. saftey zone ) . I have pre deployed discretly a couple of times - in neither case did the goof have a foggy clue !

Outside of the prison system , knife on knife is very rare . Other permutations are much more common .

Handgun stopping power is pretty limited .

Given a choice , I would take impact , over edged weapons , every time .

Chris